A big PROBLEM for 352 lovers

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

Hello everybody, I'm new to the forum.
I'm Italian (forgive some grammar mistakes), fan and YouTuber of Inter.

I've been playing FM for many years and I master the mechanics enough, I always handle ALL aspects like a 360° coach-ds.
The 352 has always been my favorite module, because it can be interpreted in various ways, from the most defensive to the most proactive.
Just think of the difference between Conte and Inzaghi or Mazzarri.

However, there is a big big big problem in its application in FM that is not discussed enough and that should reach the developers: the side bands in the 2 phases of the game.
Those who know the modern 352 perfectly, know very well that in the defensive phase the 2 fifths lower themselves like wing backs, but in the offensive phase they go on the byline if they have the ball or they close the action at the far post by inserting themselves behind the opponent full-back. As if they were real offensive wings!
The action from "fifth to fifth"(wb to other wb) is a must of the 352. Even today we have come to see the wide central defender throw themselves into the area or make the cross for the wb. Ex: Alessandro Bastoni for Dumfries.

All this on FM is not possible. If you set up the fifth as wing-back they will make crosses, but they will never throw themselves into the opponent's area to finish with heading... not even with a positive or offensive mentality.
While they will do it perfectly if we set them up as wingers, even if only as support, but in this way they won't go back in line with the defenders in the defensive phase...but they will remain in midfield, exposing us to the attacks of the opposing outside forwards.

What do you think? Anyone want to have a say on this issue? How can we raise the issue to the developers?

In the meantime, I leave you a perfect simulation of how Inter play in real life to thank you for your attention

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[VinceLombardi]

I like playing my only wide players as wide central midfielders and I've found it works alright on most versions of the game (not tested '23, but it worked more or less '16-21).

What I like to do when I play like that is play a double DMC(s) pivot behind them to help cover the more aggressive wide players. It also helps ensure that there is always someone to help recycle possession on the flanks since the wide players can get too far forward. And makes sure that there is at least somebody, somewhere in the defense to assist your solo wide players against opposing wide attacking pairs to help defend the 2v1 against you. 

That said, once you remove these traditional wingback responsibilities from your requirements for your wide players, it enables you to really open up the options when it comes to how you play those wing players and what kinds of players you get. 

You can get a physical mismatch for the opposing wide defenders, a creator/playmaker type, a dribbling ball wizard type. It's really opens up when you look at the position as a wide attacker instead of defender that gets forward. 

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Hello everybody, I'm new to the forum.
I'm Italian (forgive some grammar mistakes), fan and YouTuber of Inter.

I've been playing FM for many years and I master the mechanics enough, I always handle ALL aspects like a 360° coach-ds.
The 352 has always been my favorite module, because it can be interpreted in various ways, from the most defensive to the most proactive.
Just think of the difference between Conte and Inzaghi or Mazzarri.

However, there is a big big big problem in its application in FM that is not discussed enough and that should reach the developers: the side bands in the 2 phases of the game.
Those who know the modern 352 perfectly, know very well that in the defensive phase the 2 fifths lower themselves like wing backs, but in the offensive phase they go on the byline if they have the ball or they close the action at the far post by inserting themselves behind the opponent full-back. As if they were real offensive wings!
The action from fifth to fifth is a must of the 352. Even today we have come to see the third defenders throw themselves into the area or make the cross for the fifth. Ex: Alessandro Bastoni for Dumfries.

All this on FM is not possible. If you set up the fifth as wing backs they will make crosses, but they will never throw themselves into the opponent's area to finish... not even with a positive or offensive mentality.
While they will do it perfectly if we set them up as wingers, even if only as support, but in this way they won't go back in line with the defenders in the defensive phase...but they will remain in midfield, exposing us to the attacks of the opposing outside forwards.

What do you think? Anyone want to have a say on this issue? How can we raise the issue to the developers?

In the meantime, I leave you a perfect simulation of how Inter play in real life to thank you for your attention

 

 

Grande, pero secondo me Brozovic gioca con più forza, come un HB. RPM e un giocatore come Modric.

If you want your wide players to get to the byline and then come back and defend, try using WB(a) on the flanks. On attack they will be programmed to run to the byline before crossing. The Halfback role can also help release your attacking wingbacks up the pitch.

Pero, non ho capito "fifth to fifth," ma che significa?

 

In bocca al lupo!

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

You could try turning on "get to the byline" in the PIs (personalized instructions) of a different role but I think the WBa will provide what you're looking for.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cloud9

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

27 minuti fa, Cloud9 ha scritto:

Grande, pero secondo me Brozovic gioca con più forza, come un HB. RPM e come Modric.

If you want your wide players to get to the byline and then come back and defend, try using WB(a) on the flanks. On attack they will be programmed to run to the byline before crossing. The Halfback role can also help release your attacking wingbacks up the pitch.

Pero, non ho capito "fifth to fifth," ma che significa?

 

In bocca al lupo!

 

It means that a winger crosses at the far post for the other winger. From fifth left to fifth right midfield. It is a classic wording of 352.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

26 minuti fa, Cloud9 ha scritto:

You could try turning on "get to the byline" in the PIs (personalized instructions) of a different role but I think the WBa will provide what you're looking for.

 

 

 

Unfortunately not.
As I explained in the first message, the wing back NEVER GOES to close the action at the far post on the cross of the opposite wing back or of the opposite wide-centre back.

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

 

 

Unfortunately not.
As I explained in the first message, the wing back NEVER GOES to close the action at the far post on the cross of the opposite wing back or of the opposite wide-centre back.

It sounds like you want very specific actions from the Wingbacks. 

• However, you have no double pivot, no holding DM, and only 1 defend duty CB. Some defensive stability in the formation (as @VinceLombardisuggested) would provide the base for the wide players to go forward. Roles do not operate in isolation.
• Player traits will affect how they play which you can use for your benefit (switch to wide areas, get forward, run with ball more etc).
• The target foward encourages other players to play him the ball more.
  • If you want crosses played to WBs at the post, you'll need to be specific about it with them (especially since you're lofting crosses).
• Go into the PIs to tell the players exactly what you want them to do.
  • For example: A WCB(d) with "cross more often" and aiming to the near/far post could both provide the platform for the WB(a) to go forward. The WCB can provide the crosses you are looking for, and set up a solid defensive platform.
  • Similarly if want to keep the wide men in midfield and you're unhappy with the defensive output of the W(s) and WM(s), try a DW(s) with "cross from byline" and "get further forward." I haven't tested if combining "cross from byline" and "cross more often" makes the player run forward more, but that could be something to experiment with.
•  You have a low line of engagement and are rolling it out to the CBs. The WBs will quite literally have to run the entire pitch to get to the byline.
  • The style you've set up is tiring for the wide players (counter press, extremely wide, positive, prevent gk distribution). The WBs players (who have to do a ton of running anyways) will be exhausted and make runs forward less.

I suggest these are factors in the problem you are experiencing. 

 

Also, if you're not looking for tactical advice and just stating you believe the game is bugged, here's where you can post: https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/

Edited February 14, 2023 by Cloud9

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

25 minuti fa, Cloud9 ha scritto:

It sounds like you want very specific actions from the Wingbacks.

• However, you have no players holding or on defensive roles providing a base for the wingbacks to feel free to go forward to the byline. 
• Player traits will affect how they play which you can use for your benefit (switch to wide areas, get forward, run with ball more etc).
• The target foward encourages other players to play him the ball more via crosses instead of other choices. 
• Go into the PIs to tell the Wide players exactly what you want them to do
•  You have a low line of engagement and are rolling it out to the CBs which means the wide players will quite literally have to run the entire pitch to get to the byline.
• The style you've set up is extremely tiring for the players (counter press, extremely wide, positive, prevent gk distribution) and the wide players specifically will be exhausted and make runs less.

I suggest these are factors in the problem you are experiencing. 

Yes, it's a specific wingback action. But this is the heart of 352, the real strength of him!
His wingers are full-backs in defense and very wide wings in attack, it is the basis of the modern 352. Players like Perisic, Dumfries, Darmian, Dimarco, Gosens (even at Atalanta) all made this move several times a game. All of them cross from the byline, but also go to finish at the far post both with their heads and with their feet.
Not being able to do it on FM is a big regret.
I tried in every way, both with individual tactics and with skills, but nothing.
The closest thing is to set them as wingers. But obviously you pay something in defense.

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Yes, it's a specific wingback action. But this is the heart of 352, the real strength of him!
His wingers are full-backs in defense and very wide wings in attack, it is the basis of the modern 352. Players like Perisic, Dumfries, Darmian, Dimarco, Gosens (even at Atalanta) all made this move several times a game. All of them cross from the byline, but also go to finish at the far post both with their heads and with their feet.
Not being able to do it on FM is a big regret.
I tried in every way, both with individual tactics and with skills, but nothing.
The closest thing is to set them as wingers. But obviously you pay something in defense.

An element of what you're experiencing may be that Sports Interactive is based in London, UK and while the game aims to mimic life as much as possible, it's more focused on trends within English Football than Italian. 

• 3-5-2 is seen largely as an obsolete formation within the English game with even Conte playing a 5-2-3, forgoing the traditional striker partnership. Teams playing the 3-5-2 in England tend to utilize WBs to hoof the ball to a strong aerial striker. I believe Brentford is the only top flight English squad to set up like that, and they've done so in less than half their games this season. I don't say this with disrespect for Italian Football, only to offer perspective on why roles may feel different from what you're seeing Inter play.

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Cloud9

[JackFM1999123]

you are completely right and anyone telling you you're doing something wrong is wrong. The wingbacks used to get in at the back-post on previous versions of the game, even in the wingback on support duty they used to do it and cross to each-other. Now not even a complete wingback on attack will do it. My thinking is it was maybe a little overpowered so they just stopped it from being a thing and that's a shame. 3ATB is not very effective if the wingbacks cannot be effective. 

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

7 ore fa, Cloud9 ha scritto:

An element of what you're experiencing may be that Sports Interactive is based in London, UK and while the game aims to mimic life as much as possible, it's more focused on trends within English Football than Italian. 

• 3-5-2 is seen largely as an obsolete formation within the English game with even Conte playing a 5-2-3, forgoing the traditional striker partnership. Teams playing the 3-5-2 in England tend to utilize WBs to hoof the ball to a strong aerial striker. I believe Brentford is the only top flight English squad to set up like that, and they've done so in less than half their games this season. I don't say this with disrespect for Italian Football, only to offer perspective on why roles may feel different from what you're seeing Inter play.

 

Your idea is very apt in my opinion.
This is likely to be the case!
In Italy, all teams that play the 352 or its variants have wingers attacking the far post or closing the action.
Not only Inter, but also Atalanta, Udinese, Rome, Verona...
If you don't play the 352 like this, I obviously believe it's defensive and obsolete!

Quoting Conte, you see the difference precisely with Perisic: look at his score this year (0 goals in 523) and look at last year with Inzaghi (10 goals in 352).

I think it can be a great suggestion for developers.
Thanks for giving me the correct link!

[VinceLombardi]

10 hours ago, JackFM1999123 said:

you are completely right and anyone telling you you're doing something wrong is wrong. The wingbacks used to get in at the back-post on previous versions of the game, even in the wingback on support duty they used to do it and cross to each-other. Now not even a complete wingback on attack will do it. My thinking is it was maybe a little overpowered so they just stopped it from being a thing and that's a shame. 3ATB is not very effective if the wingbacks cannot be effective. 

Playing in '21 version and yeah, you can drive a CBW(a) and IWB(a) (prolly others too) at a post to finish off a cross. The only issue is that they start so far back that it's never a quick developing, early crosser type play. It's slow, and is typically the 2nd or 3rd option on a play off like a pass back or switching the field or something. 

If you want the wide player to wide player type crossers to be a primary part of your tactic, the finisher has got to be in that midfield strata or further forward (or otherworldly fast), even in previous versions. Otherwise it just takes too long to develop and you can't beat the defenders to the post. 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by VinceLombardi

[The _Captain]

I am a little bit confused by "fifths

About getting them to attack the posts. I am a tactical idiot. They need space to get into the posts. Mezzala might block them from reaching the penalty box. 

Try an inverted wing back they get into the box on attack providing the cm gives them space.

 

[Raymond85]

4 minuti fa, The _Captain ha scritto:

I am a little bit confused by "fifths

About getting them to attack the posts. I am a tactical idiot. They need space to get into the posts. Mezzala might block them from reaching the penalty box. 

Try an inverted wing back they get into the box on attack providing the cm gives them space.

 

"fifths" (quinti) is an italian trend that i hate to define wingbacks in a 3 atb system.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Raymond85

[The _Captain]

Ah a back 5. I understand now.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

Here is an example of an action ^^ Vagnoman crossed to Borna Sosa. Wide to wide on far post. THIS IS 352.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

Here instead we see the left WCB(att) who crosses for the right WM who heads the bank for Davies, left wide-mid.
This is the magic of real 352 guys <3

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

I opened a topic for developers here 

 

[WhyMe]

Always wanted to be able to replicate that behaviour from the days of Cafu and Roberto Carlos for Brazil, they would regularly cross for each other.  Granted that was as full backs technically but the principle stands as they were in essence playing CWB-a from the fullback positions and for me that was what the role on attack duty should have represented.  You are quite right though, while it does happen occasionally in FM it isn't consistent enough.

[Icy]

Have you tried with PPM "gets into opposition area"? It might work

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

15 minuti fa, Icy ha scritto:

Have you tried with PPM "gets into opposition area"? It might work

Obviously yes, I tried any player trait that imposes an offensive movement towards the box.
But there's nothing to be done. The algorithm simply does not foresee that a player in the defensive midfield position can throw himself into the box. Whatever role he has.

To date, the only way to have effective offensive movements and an attack on the opposite post from the cross is to use W or DW or WM.
It is clear that at this point the problem shifts to the defense, because there is no longer coverage on the backside.
In short, it's like a short blanket. Either stay out with your shoulders or stay out with your feet.
I hope this will be fixed by the developers.
In reality the 352 has had these movements for at least 5 years....but here it seems that we are only thinking of the 433 or 4231 or english soccer.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[Poison]

24 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Obviously yes, I tried any player trait that imposes an offensive movement towards the box.
But there's nothing to be done. The algorithm simply does not foresee that a player in the defensive midfield position can throw himself into the box. Whatever role he has.

To date, the only way to have effective offensive movements and an attack on the opposite post from the cross is to use W or DW or WM.
It is clear that at this point the problem shifts to the defense, because there is no longer coverage on the backside.
In short, it's like a short blanket. Either stay out with your shoulders or stay out with your feet.
I hope this will be fixed by the developers.
In reality the 352 has had these movements for at least 5 years....but here it seems that we are only thinking of the 433 or 4231 or english soccer.

You need the following  I believe: A positive / attacking mentality

Narrow shape
Cwb or iwb, not wb.

underlap right /left instruction

work ball into box (this brings the players to more attacking positions, extra important)

possibly a lower tempo.

 I believe if you combine most if not all of the above it's doable. Will check it as I play 5-3-2 myself.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

15 minuti fa, Poison ha scritto:

You need the following  I believe: A positive / attacking mentality

Narrow shape
Cwb or iwb, not wb.

underlap right /left instruction

work ball into box (this brings the players to more attacking positions, extra important)

possibly a lower tempo.

 I believe if you combine most if not all of the above it's doable. Will check it as I play 5-3-2 myself.

I also tried with a very offensive mentality and with minimal tempo. Obviously with work ball into the box. And I used WB(att) and CWB(att) too. Nothing to do. The man walks towards the area instead of running in. In fact, almost always when the cross arrives inside the box there are only the 2 attackers or at most one CC in addition (if I set it to attack).
An offensive 352 should aim to always have 3-4 players inside the box. One of the two side players should always be inside.

"Underlap" has nothing to do with it as a movement because that's not the issue. And not even using IWB which is another role entirely.
During the construction phase the man must stay very wide and not come into the field. He must throw himself into the area ONLY IF the man on the opposite side goes for the cross.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[Poison]

3 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

During the construction phase the man must stay very wide and not come into the field. He must throw himself into the area ONLY IF the man on the opposite side goes for the cross.

No one does that? Surely he must stay narrower when the ball is on the other side? Tried narrow shape so that they will focus in middle? Also if the build-up is slow they get in the box, I'm sure of it. Could it be a player's issue? Maybe bad OTB? I will check it later but I'm pretty certain that I've seen goals scored by my wing backs like so. If I'm wrong I'll post again apologizing.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

11 minuti fa, Poison ha scritto:

No one does that? Surely he must stay narrower when the ball is on the other side? Tried narrow shape so that they will focus in middle? Also if the build-up is slow they get in the box, I'm sure of it. Could it be a player's issue? Maybe bad OTB? I will check it later but I'm pretty certain that I've seen goals scored by my wing backs like so. If I'm wrong I'll post again apologizing.

I repeat, I always use a slow tempo or even very slow. I also often use work ball into the box.
My external players are strong, I also tried to set very high values for them with the editor. But it doesn't change.
The only way to systematically make them head on the far post during crosses is to move them to the midfield line.

[Ivan787]

Hi, as an inter fan I'm facing the same issue.

If we analyze the Inzaghi 3-5-2 we see exactly what Ermes said. 

I think that probably the reason is that the engine doesn't allow that movement due to some blocks in offensive behaviour of wingback. 

If you analyze Dumfries movement you can see that during defensive phase he acts like a pure defender, to compose a 5-man line.

But during attacking phase he is often as high on the pitch as the main forward. He plays like a forward. This is impossible to achieve with any mentality, traits, setting or PI. I tried everything, pairing with offensive midfielder and defensive midfielders next to him, but is impossible to let a player in a WB position to stay in the same line as the forward. I suppose the me doesn't not allow this. You have to move him to WM position but in that case you will lose the defensive part of the role.

This is a pity because a typical action of Inter is to build up overloading left side that immediately change to Dumfries which is in free space acting like a true forward.

 

 

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

30 minuti fa, Ivan787 ha scritto:

Hi, as an inter fan I'm facing the same issue.

If we analyze the Inzaghi 3-5-2 we see exactly what Ermes said. 

I think that probably the reason is that the engine doesn't allow that movement due to some blocks in offensive behaviour of wingback. 

If you analyze Dumfries movement you can see that during defensive phase he acts like a pure defender, to compose a 5-man line.

But during attacking phase he is often as high on the pitch as the main forward. He plays like a forward. This is impossible to achieve with any mentality, traits, setting or PI. I tried everything, pairing with offensive midfielder and defensive midfielders next to him, but is impossible to let a player in a WB position to stay in the same line as the forward. I suppose the me doesn't not allow this. You have to move him to WM position but in that case you will lose the defensive part of the role.

This is a pity because a typical action of Inter is to build up overloading left side that immediately change to Dumfries which is in free space acting like a true forward.

 

 

Finally someone who understands exactly what I'm talking about and knows about the modern 352.
In my opinion it's really a question of culture.
In England, Italian tactics are not followed very carefully (not even the Serie A players, judging by their incorrect attributes) and perhaps stereotypes are adopted. The Premier certainly deserves all the respect and honors, because in the last 20 years they have managed things well compared to us, but the Italian technicians still produce important innovations on the modules today.
Inzaghi is certainly one of the top. It is no coincidence that he made Guardiola tremble in the CL final and only because of Lautaro and Lukaku did he not win the cup.

Guys, let's try to push developers to consider these analyzes of ours and improve this dynamic!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[ceefax the cat]

I find another problem with wingbacks, (or fullbacks, particularly in narrow formations like 4-3-1-2), is getting them to defend aggressively enough to stop wingers from turning. They go back and stand in the defensive line, and then have a hard time anticipating a pass to their winger, leaving a big space in front of them for the midfielders to cover. IRL they'd be ready to pounce on their winger the second the ball was moved out to him to stop him from having any space to turn. This lack of anticipation means it's too easy to force a 5-3-2 back just by switching the ball.

With dominant teams you can get the right effect by playing the wingbacks as MR/L but, as above, that creates other problems when they fail to get back into the defensive line.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

5 minuti fa, ceefax the cat ha scritto:

Trovo che un altro problema con i terzini (o i terzini, in particolare nelle formazioni strette come il 4-3-1-2) sia convincerli a difendere in modo abbastanza aggressivo da impedire alle ali di girarsi. Tornano indietro e si posizionano sulla linea difensiva, e poi hanno difficoltà ad anticipare un passaggio alla loro ala, lasciando un grande spazio davanti a loro da coprire per i centrocampisti. Nella vita reale sarebbero pronti a balzare sulla loro ala nel momento in cui la palla gli viene spostata per impedirgli di avere spazio per girarsi. Questa mancanza di anticipazione significa che è troppo facile forzare un 5-3-2 semplicemente cambiando palla.

Con le squadre dominanti puoi ottenere l'effetto giusto giocando i terzini come MR/L ma, come sopra, ciò crea altri problemi quando non riescono a rientrare nella linea difensiva.

This point is off-topic here.
But I'll try to give you an idea. Have you tried setting the tight marking of your fullbacks on the opposing wings? And also a high level of individual pressing?

However, remember that it is quite normal for the 4312 to suffer on the sides.

[ceefax the cat]

14 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

This point is off-topic here.

Not particularly - behaviour of wingbacks in a 5-3-2? I'll decide what I post and where, thanks.

14 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

But I'll try to give you an idea. Have you tried setting the tight marking of your fullbacks on the opposing wings? And also a high level of individual pressing?

Yes, and it's impossible to get the right effect. Man-to-man marking brings further problems with it...

14 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

However, remember that it is quite normal for the 4312 to suffer on the sides.

True, and teams normally try to mitigate that by asking the fullbacks and MLC/MRC to work together to cover the space - something they're not doing very well in FM24.

Edited November 10, 2023 by ceefax the cat

[Rashidi]

Perhaps I don't understand what the OP means.

In the game at the moment, right now on FM24, I can get wingbacks to be very offensive in the final third. When we are attacking down one flank I can expect them to be on the receiving end of a cross. It will naturally depend on my tempo, if the attack is too fast then naturally he may not get there.
I have on many ocassions my wingbacks create goals for each other. Wingback gets into the final third and crosses to the other wingback who scores. The same applies to defensive wingers which imho are a very strong role, they are defensively good and in the offensive phases they can attack byelines for crosses or get in there to score too. These all depend on a teams defensive line. We also dont need any traits to get them to do this. All you need to do is play on a higher defensive line. And here I am not talking about winning the ball back from a counterpress and then creating a goal scoring chance. I am specifically referring to build up plays from your own half.  

I see a few expectations that may be misunderstandings of the basic team and player instructions in the game from the OP. He asks if you see a lot of "high level individual pressing", you can't affect individual pressing by that anymore, these are all subject to triggers now and this is the only thing you can affect. So if you have maxed out trigger pressing that just means the chance of a player responding to a trigger from an opponent is higher than before. To get wolfpack pressing the zone of compression needs to be shallow, ie. the height of the defensive line and the LOE must be narrow. And you will need to step up more to close out the space behind. 
@Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro You might have expectations of what you want to see based on what you interpret in real life, however your expectations might not be accurately translated into the game because your starting assumptions about how all the team instructions and player instructions work might be wrong. Its not meant as a criticism but it could explain why you aren't getting your wingbacks performing the way you want. In fact in FM24 wingbacks and defensive wingers are very strong roles, and some of the most attacking and defensively resilient systems are back 5 ones at the moment. The 5221 is incredibly strong atm, and I just want to avoid using it cos its just feels like its too OP.

 

Here I am using a 532 with two attacking wingbacks, this goal is finished off my wingback on the left who is played in by my BBM.

[ceefax the cat]

6 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

All you need to do is play on a higher defensive line.

This tells me that defensive line, like a few other things, is misrepresented in the TC

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

@Rashid 

Your module is almost a copy of mine (except the wingbacks, because I use DW now). The team settings are also similar. Tempo is low, offensive mentality, expressiveness.
The only difference is that I don't put underlap and in the defensive phase I don't keep the line so high, but medium. But this can't be the reason, it doesn't make any sense, it would be silly given that we're talking about the defensive NON-possession phase and not the offensive one.

In any case, in all these years, I have tried any type of tactic or instruction multiple times and I have never seen a wingback run to the post to intercept a cross. The difference with the DW is clear in this movement.

DWs go into the box during crosses even if I have positive mentality and maximum width.
You can clearly see that it is a different algorithm.
A wide player on the midfield line runs into the box, a player on the defensive midfield line walks into the box.

[Rashidi]

Like I said before I can’t really help if you insist that u are doing it the right way.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

16 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

Like I said before I can’t really help if you insist that u are doing it the right way.

Look here, I did exactly the same as you. Carlos Augusto crosses and Dumfries sleeps.
What I notice is this. A wing-back receives a cross inside the area ONLY IF he is already inside from first due to a very prolonged action.

In short, it's a coincidence...not a systematic action!
He will never sprint into the box to head. At most he walks...like here in screenshots.

[Ivan787]

Hi, I try to explain it with a picture.

This is a screen from Barcelona - Inter, UCL roundup last year.

Dumfries is a WB, but look at where is positioned during the build up. I haven't found any way yet to replicate that position during build up phase. That position is absolutely mandatory for the Inzaghi system to be efficient because Di Marco, Chala and Mikhitaryan (overload on the left) can rapidly move the ball to other flank where Barella and Dumfries have space.

@Rashidi I agree with you. It is possible to bring the WB to an extremely advanced position with certain settings of playing time and width. But the image I posted refers to a build up phase by the goalkeeper. Dumfries is positioned so high already at the start of the action, and one of the keys to Inzaghi's game is to make the change of play quickly. During Roma - Inter, last year, the ball move from GK to Dumfries which score (in that position) in 14 seconds.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Ivan787

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

@Ivan787 Excellent explanation and useful images.
I share 2 links of the highlights of 2 different matches and I advise those interested to see the clips. FOCUS ON DUMFRIES.

 

 

 

[Poison]

@Ivan787 Umm... all the wing back roles are positioned high up the pitch in the last few FMs always straight when the ball is at GK (initial build-up? Anyway, that's not what OP asked. At OP: Here's what's literally my last game in this ME, you can see the WB score from within the box in one of our goals. Sorry, I didn't know how to post video from in-game so I've just saved the match.

 

FeralpiSalò v Palermo.pkm

Edited November 10, 2023 by Poison

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

11 minuti fa, Poison ha scritto:

@Ivan787 Umm... all the wing back roles are positioned high up the pitch in the last few FMs always straight when the ball is at GK (initial build-up? Anyway, that's not what OP asked. At OP: Here's what's literally my last game in this ME, you can see the WB score from within the box in one of our goals. Sorry, I didn't know how to post video form in-game so I've just saved the match.

 

FeralpiSalò v Palermo.pkm 181.58 kb  · 0 downloads

If you mean the second goal, that probably only happens because it's a counterattack and the game tells everyone to randomly throw themselves forward for a few seconds.
But a sporadic, non-recurring situation that comes from reasoned construction.

It could mean that the only way to get this thing on FM is to always play the 352 with a counterattack. 

[Poison]

2 minutes ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

But a sporadic, non-recurring situation that comes from reasoned construction.

That's because it IS something tricky to pull off in my opinion. The player has to balance his run and not get exposed in the counter attack (keep in mind that they are the only player in the side) and he absolutely HAS to know what the other player will do. It will probably be a combination of good anticipation, good coaching, good cohesion, good teamwork, good tactics etc. It's not as easy as it looks. Do you know that in local (amateur / semi-pro) these highlights almost never happen? I would guess there is a reason for this. In this ME the players square the ball a lot to marauding players though just as @Rashidi showed, I'll leave that here.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

1 ora fa, Poison ha scritto:

That's because it IS something tricky to pull off in my opinion. The player has to balance his run and not get exposed in the counter attack (keep in mind that they are the only player in the side) and he absolutely HAS to know what the other player will do. It will probably be a combination of good anticipation, good coaching, good cohesion, good teamwork, good tactics etc. It's not as easy as it looks. Do you know that in local (amateur / semi-pro) these highlights almost never happen? I would guess there is a reason for this. In this ME the players square the ball a lot to marauding players though just as @Rashidi showed, I'll leave that here.

Your reasoning is coherent.
It is certainly a non-trivial movement that requires off the ball, anticipation, decision, courage, workrate and teamwork...that's right. That's what I took for sure too.
Dumfries is good in these attributes. I also tried to raise them a little with the editor... but it makes no difference.
So yes, I think it's really an algorithm and engine problem. Indeed, when I use him as a DW I really see a big difference in the attack on the post during crosses.

[avenger22]

I would say that what OP says is completely true and to be fair never in any ME in FM, WB(A) or even CWB(A) attack the box well and regularly like roles from M strata attack even in 3-5-2.
Basically what we want is to have the offensive capabilities of W(A) from M strata in 3-5-2 but from WB strata so we don't lose our defensive in compensation for offensive like in real life and that should work also in FM.
That would make amazing 3-5-2 in offense not just having WB who crosses the ball, runs wide with the ball and keeps width, but we also want them to make run in behind the defender and also to attack the box from crossing,  just what a modern wing back does in real life especially in 3-5-2, the only way to do it currently is 3-5-2 with wingers no wingback but that means defending is horrible because you defend with 3 not 5.

Edited November 17, 2023 by avenger22
some grammatical errors and adding something

[GunmaN1905]

Been browsing the forum for this same reason with wide CBs (not the role, but players in general, even in libero role) and wingbacks.

They just won't attack the space and especially the box like they do in real setup.

For example, this from just a couple of weeks ago:

First highlight, look at Dumfries, he's at the position Ivan787 and Ermes already mentioned.

He's a threat, so Gasperini instructs Ruggieri to stick with him at all times because if Dumfries gets a head start, it's trouble.

But that means the space between LWB and LCB is open.

Then Darmian happens.

This doesn't happen in FM even with Libero role. He was RCB in this situation, not RWB.

Even if you look at the second highlight, Lautaro's goal, Dimarco is sitting in the middle, right next to Mkhitaryan. If you ask me, WB/WM should be "fused" into one position when they're the only wide player in the formation and all the roles should be allowed. Dimarco is effectively playing wide playmaker for Inter, but that role can be selected only as a WM, not WB.

Then you look at the last highlight and it's obvious FM wingback never makes such a run where he's effectively a striker.

Obviously it's hard to code this stuff into a game, but FM is still just about instructing X or Y, never about players being able to choose between options X and Y. As in if they're to run wide or inside, for example.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

@avenger22 @GunmaN1905

Wow done guys, I'm proud of you!
It's nice to see so many tactical fans who are so careful to the dynamics of an advanced 352.

Let's hope that the FM24 developers will also pay attention to it.

[Meraklija Vujevic]

 

I am playing 3 5 2 and I won all even I agree that 3 5 2 not working properly!

I done 96 points as Forrest using 3 5 2 in first season without no any transfers!

No any confidence that SI will fix long term issues with match engine

 

 

 

 

 

[ExploitedSpace]

1 hour ago, Meraklija Vujevic said:

 

I am playing 3 5 2 and I won all even I agree that 3 5 2 not working properly!

I done 96 points as Forrest using 3 5 2 in first season without no any transfers!

No any confidence that SI will fix long term issues with match engine

 

 

 

 

 

Could you provide TI's or the tactic? Impressive!!

[Jyuan83]

I love this thread as i love dumfries unique role for inter down the right. He’s basically an auxiliary wide forward for them in possession like what so many have pointed out as he’s always high up with the forwards. There is an inter replication thread on this forum where he is used as a DW with cut inside as the PI. As DW he presses high and tracks back to form a back five under sustained pressure. In this DW role, Dumfries had 19 goals and 11 assists for him. He even scored a hattrick for inter in the ucl final for him against Liverpool. Having said that, i agree that it’s hard to get wb to aggressively attack the box and score unless we get another unique wb role in future FM editions like advanced wingback whose role is to function as a wide forward in the absence of wingers.

[Meraklija Vujevic]

17 minutes ago, ExploitedSpace said:

Could you provide TI's or the tactic? Impressive!!

 

You have all topic about tactic in sharing section!

 

[Meraklija Vujevic]

23 minutes ago, ExploitedSpace said:

Could you provide TI's or the tactic? Impressive!!

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

I re-suggest these other 2 complementary topics.

AND...

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro