A big PROBLEM for 352 lovers

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

2 ore fa, Jyuan83 ha scritto:

I love this thread as i love dumfries unique role for inter down the right. He’s basically an auxiliary wide forward for them in possession like what so many have pointed out as he’s always high up with the forwards. There is an inter replication thread on this forum where he is used as a DW with cut inside as the PI. As DW he presses high and tracks back to form a back five under sustained pressure. In this DW role, Dumfries had 19 goals and 11 assists for him. He even scored a hattrick for inter in the ucl final for him against Liverpool. Having said that, i agree that it’s hard to get wb to aggressively attack the box and score unless we get another unique wb role in future FM editions like advanced wingback whose role is to function as a wide forward in the absence of wingers.

Of course, many of us currently use DWs instead of WBs for all the reasons described in this thread.
But DWs are not the perfect role. Because they don't drop to 5 in defense exactly like the WB, they don't have much freedom of choice on the TIs (marking, pressing, dribbling) and above all in the opponent's midfield they don't stay wide exactly like the WB. They tend to give less width in the last 30 metres, even with the ball on their side.
Obviously it's good for them to enter the opponent's area. But they provide fewer crosses than WBs and don't allow many underlapses to your wide defenders.

In reality, WBs cut inside ONLY to attack the far post on the cross coming from the other side or if there is a fluid transition with positions exchanges.
Otherwise they must always stay wide, almost on the sideline, because they must give breadth to the team. So giving "cut inside" to DWs is not correct. (I tried too) Because he is a TI who tends to centralize while carrying the ball and perhaps use his weak foot. It has nothing to do with what we're looking for.
In short... the problem remains. Between WB and DW a pendulum between pros and cons.

Maybe we should also talk about the WCB... maybe I will in the future.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[avenger22]

On 21/11/2023 at 16:06, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Of course, many of us currently use DWs instead of WBs for all the reasons described in this thread.
But DWs are not the perfect role. Because they don't drop to 5 in defense exactly like the WB, they don't have much freedom of choice on the TIs (marking, pressing, dribbling) and above all in the opponent's midfield they don't stay wide exactly like the WB. They tend to give less width in the last 30 metres, even with the ball on their side.
Obviously it's good for them to enter the opponent's area. But they provide fewer crosses than WBs and don't allow many underlapses to your wide defenders.

In reality, WBs cut inside ONLY to attack the far post on the cross coming from the other side or if there is a fluid transition with positions exchanges.
Otherwise they must always stay wide, almost on the sideline, because they must give breadth to the team. So giving "cut inside" to DWs is not correct. (I tried too) Because he is a TI who tends to centralize while carrying the ball and perhaps use his weak foot. It has nothing to do with what we're looking for.
In short... the problem remains. Between WB and DW a pendulum between pros and cons.

Maybe we should also talk about the WCB... maybe I will in the future.

Yeah WCB need to be improved too, i have rarely if not ever seen him underlap the WB or overlap him, he just advances very high and stays there just more like a counter-press player and does deep crosses but not the underlap that Darmian does, i mean it shouldn't be every moment but during the match it should get triggered some times, thats it need to be improved too that role so the back 3 can become better.

Edited November 28, 2023 by avenger22

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

Il 28/11/2023 in 11:42 , avenger22 ha scritto:

Yeah WCB need to be improved too, i have rarely if not ever seen him underlap the WB or overlap him, he just advances very high and stays there just more like a counter-press player and does deep crosses but not the underlap that Darmian does, i mean it shouldn't be every moment but during the match it should get triggered some times, thats it need to be improved too that role so the back 3 can become better.

Exactly! Both the underlap and overlap of WCBs need to improve.
I have the impression that the game applies these movements (TI) only to full-backs or wingbacks, not to central defenders. This makes WCBs limited.
In general, 352 is not very well known and interpreted in England. Both by developers and users.
Especially about the roles of WCB and WB. There is an anachronistic conception!
With my 2-3 topics I'm trying to make some suggestions, perhaps if more people talk about it, FM will make some changes.

I recommend all you participating in the bug reporting topic.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro

[avenger22]

3 hours ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Exactly! Both the underlap and overlap of WCBs need to improve.
I have the impression that the game applies these movements (TI) only to full-backs or wingbacks, not to central defenders. This makes WCBs limited.
In general, 352 is not very well known and interpreted in England. Both by developers and users.
Especially about the roles of WCB and WB. There is an anachronistic conception!
With my 2-3 topics I'm trying to make some suggestions, perhaps if more people talk about it, FM will make some changes.

I recommend all you participating in the bug reporting topic.

Yeah the Gasperini, Conte, Inzaghi changed how world views 3-5-2, 3-4-1-2, 3-4-2-1 and general the back 3, before it was the 3 cb who had very little to nothing attacking participation and the wingbacks were just crossing players so yeah i think it is based on old back 3 which is very limited, i think judging by adding the WCB and stuff maybe in next patches and future the back 3 will be utilized in its full potential

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

I found a great article about pro training the 352 and wingbacks.
I hope it can be useful to our debate and especially to developers. I dream of a day when these actions will be possible on FM24! With a BBM and a Wingback attacking the box like this. Which now never happens.

https://elitesoccercoaching.net/attacking/attacking-phases-incorporating-wing-backs

[avenger22]

7 hours ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

I found a great article about pro training the 352 and wingbacks.
I hope it can be useful to our debate and especially to developers. I dream of a day when these actions will be possible on FM24! With a BBM and a Wingback attacking the box like this. Which now never happens.

https://elitesoccercoaching.net/attacking/attacking-phases-incorporating-wing-backs

I think we have to wait for FM25 which will have for first time since they had 3d in 2010 i think a complete new ME with Unity so probabbly lots of things will change and they will look to change more stuff and rework many things, unless they decide to change also things in FM24 but role rework and things usually come in a new game

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

1 ora fa, avenger22 ha scritto:

I think we have to wait for FM25 which will have for first time since they had 3d in 2010 i think a complete new ME with Unity so probabbly lots of things will change and they will look to change more stuff and rework many things, unless they decide to change also things in FM24 but role rework and things usually come in a new game

Yes true, that's what I think/fear too.
But I hope that at least a small improvement can also occur in FM24, because for too many years certain modules or roles have been left behind in an approximate way.
It seems there are only 433, 4231, 4312, inverted fullbacks, Guardiola and gegenpressing. What a drag these trends are!
The 352 also needs to be rethought regarding the WCB, its fluidity, the passages that change the flanks, etc...but...
For now, I believe that this single change (wingbacks) is quite quick to implement and despite being one thing, it would already be very important! I hope so, at least that they give us some news.

 

[ta11zx]

1 hour ago, Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro said:

Yes true, that's what I think/fear too.
But I hope that at least a small improvement can also occur in FM24, because for too many years certain modules or roles have been left behind in an approximate way.
It seems there are only 433, 4231, 4312, inverted fullbacks, Guardiola and gegenpressing. What a drag these trends are!
The 352 also needs to be rethought regarding the WCB, its fluidity, the passages that change the flanks, etc...but...
For now, I believe that this single change (wingbacks) is quite quick to implement and despite being one thing, it would already be very important! I hope so, at least that they give us some news.

 

Do you post tactics in your YouTube page?  I'm looking to see some of your tactics. I currently play fm21.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

15 minuti fa, ta11zx ha scritto:

Do you post tactics in your YouTube page?  I'm looking to see some of your tactics. I currently play fm21.

Not  I have not a gaming channel.

[2calvin]

@Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurrowell done. It's undoubtedly a match engine issue and you stuck to your guns even tho people tried to tell you "it's your tactics bro."

Clearly you love and study the 352 and have spent hours playing and tweaking it on FM, can you post any screenshots (in English :D) of some of your favourite 352 tactics that you've made? I always enjoy looking at other people's tactics especially 3 at the back systems

[avenger22]

18 hours ago, 2calvin said:

@Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurrowell done. It's undoubtedly a match engine issue and you stuck to your guns even tho people tried to tell you "it's your tactics bro."

Clearly you love and study the 352 and have spent hours playing and tweaking it on FM, can you post any screenshots (in English :D) of some of your favourite 352 tactics that you've made? I always enjoy looking at other people's tactics especially 3 at the back systems

I can give you some 3-5-2 WB DM which are very strong in this ME in terms of meta i have years who uses this formation and always tests this shape, but ofc it is not a replication of any sort of Inter cause we cannot do it exactly we can get close but not the same

[2calvin]

2 hours ago, avenger22 said:

I can give you some 3-5-2 WB DM which are very strong in this ME in terms of meta i have years who uses this formation and always tests this shape, but ofc it is not a replication of any sort of Inter cause we cannot do it exactly we can get close but not the same

Sure! Let's see it

Messing around with tactics today, my 3-5-2 ended up looking something like this. CM roles operating in the half spaces is crucial in my opinion. Undecided on TIs. WM PIs - cut inside with ball. LCB and RCB told to stay wider

 

[avenger22]

1 hour ago, 2calvin said:

Sure! Let's see it

Messing around with tactics today, my 3-5-2 ended up looking something like this. CM roles operating in the half spaces is crucial in my opinion. Undecided on TIs. WM PIs - cut inside with ball. LCB and RCB told to stay wider

 

BPD is very very meta and strong all in FM, mostly because of one thing the dribble more is amazing the word implies that they become neymar and dribble but that is more to run with the ball in the space so 3x BPD with dribble more is very powerful to open spaces, also put you MEZZ in Attack because in Support they don't attack the box from crosses while in attack you will end up having 4 players ready for any cross and ball into the area, other than that it seems good for a without WB.

If WM would defend in a back 5 it would be top but the defense with only 3 is problematic and there is no way apart from high press much higher d-line to try to at least keep them away from goal, i love the attack without WB it is very dynamic but the defense is very shambolic but with high press and super high line you can lessen it alot

Edited December 7, 2023 by avenger22

[2calvin]

On 07/12/2023 at 22:30, avenger22 said:

BPD is very very meta and strong all in FM, mostly because of one thing the dribble more is amazing the word implies that they become neymar and dribble but that is more to run with the ball in the space so 3x BPD with dribble more is very powerful to open spaces, also put you MEZZ in Attack because in Support they don't attack the box from crosses while in attack you will end up having 4 players ready for any cross and ball into the area, other than that it seems good for a without WB.

If WM would defend in a back 5 it would be top but the defense with only 3 is problematic and there is no way apart from high press much higher d-line to try to at least keep them away from goal, i love the attack without WB it is very dynamic but the defense is very shambolic but with high press and super high line you can lessen it alot

Defending the flanks is for sure a challenge but a fun one. About WM's on support - Sure, they are helping a bit but... honestly I am thinking of trying W or WM on attack. Yes, my flanks would be exposed but they are exposed even now with support duties. Tomorrow I will try your suggestion of max pressing, highest defensive line etc. Thanks

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

20 ore fa, 2calvin ha scritto:

Difendere le fasce è sicuramente una sfida, ma divertente. Riguardo i WM in supporto - Certo, aiutano un po' ma... onestamente sto pensando di provare W o WM in attacco. Sì, i miei fianchi sarebbero esposti ma lo sono anche adesso con compiti di supporto. Domani proverò il tuo suggerimento su pressante massimo, linea difensiva più alta, ecc. Grazie

Why not use DWs instead of WMs to have slightly more consistent flanks on defense? Maybe use man marking on opposing offensive wingers.

[Ermes Messaggero Nerazzurro]

Hi everybody!
I created a new topic about Wide-Centre-Back on FM.
Another role that developers should refine, beyond Wingbacks. I believe that you, lovers of the 352, may be interested.