4-2-3-1 - Conceding nonstop in big away games

[Sophos]

This is my 4-2-3-1. It's fine, generally, most of the time. My AP(S) does nothing and my IW(A) is underwhelming, but I'm winning 2-0 and 2-1 in the majority of my games. 

The problem is in big games, especially away from home. This season I've lost 0-4, 0-3, 1-3, 1-5, and 0-3 in away games against Arsenal, United, Bayern, City, and Inter. Is there anything I could change to stop that from happening - there's no specific weakness I can spot when watching the goals, they're all pretty varied.

[CamillePunk]

My questions based on your tactical set-up:

Do your center-backs have the quickness, positioning, anticipation, and concentration to play a high line? 

What is the gap like between your DMs and your AP? Are they able to get the ball to him without giving away possession? Does your AP have options when he is on the ball? Does he have the vision, composure, and decisions to pick out the right options and not give the ball away?

If you are not able to distribute and keep hold of the ball, this could lead to dangerous counter attacks, which will be especially successful against your high defensive line. 

You're also doing a lot of pressing. Does your team have the work rate and stamina to pull this off and maintain it over 90 minutes? And when you are conceding, is it because your team is out of position due to constant pressing? 

You need to look at the goals you are conceding and look at what is actually unfolding on the pitch. How the opposition chance began. Where your players were and why they were there, etc. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by CamillePunk

[Sophos]

4 minutes ago, CamillePunk said:

My questions based on your tactical set-up:

Do your center-backs have the quickness, positioning, anticipation, and concentration to play a high line? 

What is the gap like between your DMs and your AP? Are they able to get the ball to him without giving away possession? Does your AP have options when he is on the ball? Does he have the vision, composure, and decisions to pick out the right options and not give the ball away?

If you are not able to distribute and keep hold of the ball, this could lead to dangerous counter attacks, which will be especially successful against your high defensive line. 

You're also doing a lot of pressing. Does your team have the work rate and stamina to pull this off and maintain it over 90 minutes? And when you are conceding, is it because your team is out of position due to constant pressing? 

You need to look at the goals you are conceding and look at what is actually unfolding on the pitch. How the opposition chance began. Where your players were and why they were there, etc. 

My starting centre-backs have, in those attributes:  13, 14, 17, 14 and 14, 16, 15, 14. They're not ideal, but I don't think they're glaringly unsuited to a high line. 

My AP gets the ball an okay amount of the time, though probably not often enough. He should have options ahead of him with the IW (A) and AF (A), as well as a switch out to the FB (A). 16, 13, 16 in the attributes you asked about, and 17 in passing.

As for work rate and stamina, my team is significantly above average in both, as well as other pressing-related stats like strength, jumping reach, and anticipation. 

Watching the goals I concede, I really can't spot a trend. There's a real mixture of long shots, set pieces, passes in behind, crosses from both flanks. 

[CamillePunk]

37 minutes ago, Sophos said:

My starting centre-backs have, in those attributes:  13, 14, 17, 14 and 14, 16, 15, 14. They're not ideal, but I don't think they're glaringly unsuited to a high line. 

My AP gets the ball an okay amount of the time, though probably not often enough. He should have options ahead of him with the IW (A) and AF (A), as well as a switch out to the FB (A). 16, 13, 16 in the attributes you asked about, and 17 in passing.

As for work rate and stamina, my team is significantly above average in both, as well as other pressing-related stats like strength, jumping reach, and anticipation. 

Watching the goals I concede, I really can't spot a trend. There's a real mixture of long shots, set pieces, passes in behind, crosses from both flanks. 

Then you need to address the problems individually.

Long shots: Are your players in the correct position to close down the opponent before they have their shot? Is your goalkeeper lacking in his ability to deal with shots that shouldn't be so threatening? 

Set pieces: I would advise taking a look at set piece videos on Youtube or something to get good set piece routines. Personally I will stuff the 6-yard box with my tallest players, emphasis at the near and far posts (not marking the post), and I rarely concede from these. Just keep 1 attacker going forward and a couple of your smaller players forming a wall or something. Everyone else should be in the box. This is my approach with defending both corners and free kicks. 

Passes in behind/crosses: Again I would look to see if you are losing the ball cheaply and your defenders aren't in a position to deal with it. Might need to pass shorter or change up a role in midfield. Otherwise it could be worth dialing back the high line and pressing a bit in these matches given the quality of your opponents. 

Also important to keep morale and team cohesion as high as you can to boost positioning, teamwork, and reduce mistakes. Praise good training performances every week, schedule teamwork match prep every week, etc. Personally I also regularly schedule team bonding as a low impact exercise to boost cohesion and so that my team isn't working themselves to death every day in training. Set piece training is good for the latter as well, and it also affects the performance of your set pieces in your next match. Defensive set piece training is a good idea when going against good teams that will have a lot of set pieces against you. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by CamillePunk

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Sophos said:

This is my 4-2-3-1. It's fine, generally, most of the time. My AP(S) does nothing and my IW(A) is underwhelming, but I'm winning 2-0 and 2-1 in the majority of my games. 

The problem is in big games, especially away from home. This season I've lost 0-4, 0-3, 1-3, 1-5, and 0-3 in away games against Arsenal, United, Bayern, City, and Inter. Is there anything I could change to stop that from happening - there's no specific weakness I can spot when watching the goals, they're all pretty varied.

Against teams with quick forwards, your line is too high. None of your defenders are super slow but the 3 defenders who will be available for stopping the counter (Davies, Romero, Sanchez) are all pretty slow. The forward just needs to be able to out run you, so anyone with 15 pace can get in behind. That's pretty much any Premier League AF. Lloris isn't played as a sweeper keeper, which doubles down on this problem. 

Other problems:

• Who gives you width?
• Kane doesn't have the pace to be an AF, try swapping him to DLF
• Who distributes the ball from your defensive third? you're playing no wingbacks, no sweeper keeper, no BPD, and a no nonsense double pivot. You'll struggle with transitions and combined with the lack of width you'll struggle breaking down defenses. 
• Personally, I'd want Sonny closer to goal than he is on the wing. He's a deadly IF (a) but won't be able to utilize a lot of that killer instinct from deep.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Cloud9

[Overmars]

Start by dropping your defensive line. I am finding the "lower" or "much lower" defensive line instruction helps prevent some of the shockingly bad central defender behaviour in this match engine. You just can't afford to encourage your opponents to attempt direct passes over the top in FM23. Any team of reasonable quality will thread the needle a few times per match.

[Sophos]

On 18/02/2023 at 22:39, Overmars said:

Start by dropping your defensive line. I am finding the "lower" or "much lower" defensive line instruction helps prevent some of the shockingly bad central defender behaviour in this match engine. You just can't afford to encourage your opponents to attempt direct passes over the top in FM23. Any team of reasonable quality will thread the needle a few times per match.

I’ve actually found the opposite. Unless I’m playing as deep as possible and camping out in my own box, I concede lots from passes in behind. In my experience pressing higher lets me stop at least some of the passes before they can be played.

I’ve been experimenting with super-fast defenders using the editor, and I still concede those types of goals. I think it’s just inevitable in this match engine, which is annoying.

[Robson 07]

The tactic is...bland.  Distributes slow, plays slow and narrow, tries to camp in the opposition half but doesn't take many risks due to mentality.  It's easy to stop and ripe for being hit on the counter.  Give it more oomph in possession. 

[z464]

Just curious why you play this formation when you have 2 top strikers in the game ?

 

What I see below 

1. Most of time AP Kulusevski only has one option to pass which is Kane and he is far away because of playing AF even you play slow tempo but he still isolated.

 

2. The back 6. 

2 DMs and 4 backs , who is going to bring the ball up ? 

 

3. The formation is main focus on sit back defense but you ask the team pressing more with high defense line.

May be still work , but you have to watch the back 6 especially the 2 DMs , whether they got pull out from their position very often cause lots space behind them. 

 

4. Width is narrow but the formation itself and the roles you have are more focus the attack movement from the flank. 

 

 

I would change the role first to see how is the transition if you still like to play this formation 

Kane to DLF

Kulusevski to AM 

One of the DM to roaming playmaker or segundo volante

One of the central defender to BDP

Maybe left back to wingback 

 

I will play positive and remove narrow to start. 

Slow tempo should be okay  since Kane is playing DLF and he will hold the ball a bit to wait for the AM and IW . 

In transition and out of possession I will leave it blank first and decide after several games. In my mind I will do  mid block instead of high block. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by z464