Handling the Gegenpress - Tips and Ideas

[bababooey]

I think it's safe to say that one of the most common problems people face when playing FM, is handling stronger opponents who employ the gegenpress tactic.

Maybe you could argue that gengenpressing is still overpowered, but I dont want to do that here. People can have that debate. I'm just going based off of what I see as the game currently stands.

As a quick reminder, here are the key aspects of what gegenpressing does, based on the instructions you'll see in the tactical creator:

• Heavy pressing, often on the highest possible setting (trigger press much more often)
• High press line of engagement
• Higher defensive line (to compress space)
• Prevent short GK distribution (disrupt build up phase of opponents)
• Step up more (encourage defenders to push higher in those 50/50 moments when deciding whether to step up or drop back)
• Counter-press (immediately attempt to recover possession after losing it)
• Counter (immediately spring an attack when recovering possession)
• Higher Tempo (used to unsettle the opponent and attack quickly)
• Pass into space (used to encourage more through balls, and encourage forward runs / runs in behind)

The gegenpress will work best with formations that have at least 3 players in the AMCLR/STCLR zones.  So, 4-3-3 DM, 4-2-3-1 DM AM Wide, 4-2dm-4, 4-2-3-1, 5-2-1-2... you get the idea. This is because the more players you have positioned high up the pitch defensively, the easier it is to press the opponent early on in their build up phase.

You can see why this can be so effective, and why so many of the downloaded tactics / youtube tactics rely on heavy pressing and many attack duties. It can be a truly suffocating tactic that beats the pants off of teams who cannot cope with the pressure.

In the example below, the blue team is using the gegenpress. The white team is set up in what *should* be a defensively solid 4-2-3-1 DM AM, but notice how isolated the player in possession is when faced with the pressure from the gegenpress? Your defensive shape is fine in a vacuum, but what happens when your players don't have any options? You lose the ball, and the opponent attacks you in transition, when you are weakest.

Now look at how gegenpressing can disrupt build up play. The blue team has all zones of the pitch covered extremely well. They're positioned perfectly to press super high and win the ball back in a dangerous area. Where is the goalkeeper supposed to go with the ball? Every single player has an unfavorable matchup, except for the 2 center backs, which in this example, outnumber their marker 2 to 1. But this comes at a cost. If the GK distributes it to either of the 2 center backs, now the dilemma is shifted to them. It's solved the initial problem (where does the GK pass) but it now creates a new problem, which is, where do the center backs pass?

And maybe some of you are thinking: "why not just pass the ball down the flanks into space for the wide players to run on to?"

I think the problem with that, is you're giving the blue team a perfect opportunity to hunt in packs and squeeze you up against the touchline.

If the GK launched a ball towards his teammate number 11, for example, the blue team has 4 players who can immediately begin to press and close the space (10, 2, 4, 7).

 

I think the fundamental issue people will run into, is that they think they have a defensive problem, when in reality, they have an attacking problem.

What I mean by this is, it's easy to think: "man, we just got SHAFTED by (insert team name here who used this style), our defending is so poor! We need to be better defensively!"

Well, perhaps you do. But everything is connected.... How you attack will impact how you defend, and vice versa.

Think of this as handling quicksand. The harder you struggle to get out of quicksand, the more it sucks you in. You think you need to be more defensive, but by going more defensive you actually end up limiting your ability to release pressure, and increasing the likelihood of making a mistake and giving the ball away too easily.  Unless, you find a way to sure up your defense whilst maintaining enough of a threat going forward.....

That's what makes the gegenpress so damn effective. It feeds off of the mistakes your team makes, and turns them into goals. It forces you into mistakes by nature of its approach.

So what are you supposed to do?

 

Start with the weak spots

• Where does gegenpressing have a weakness? In my opinion, this weakness is basically what you'd see for ANY team, regardless of style. It's all about the transition from "in possession" to "out of possession."  The reason being, is that when a team loses possession, particularly after a bit of build up play, they're not going to be positioned well to defend. That's what makes the pressing + counter pressing aspect of gegenpressing so damn effective. It's the ability to wreak havoc in moments of disorganization / transition.
   
• Another weak spot for gegenpressing teams is handling good dribblers who take defenders on directly. Again, you could argue that this would disrupt any team regardless of style, but I think this is much more effective against a heavy pressing team than it would be against a team which stands off and defends in numbers. At that point, you're just dribbling into a wall of players. Less than ideal. Gegenpressing requires teams to hunt in packs to win the ball back. That means lots of players running towards the ball carrier, which leaves gaps in their defense. Of course, these gaps aren't necessarily bad if the opponent cannot exploit them.
   
• Perhaps the main weak spot of a gegenpress is the space left behind the defense. Look at the diagram below....
  
  

Think about diving the pitch into 2 zones. The pressing zone, and the space behind the defense. The pressing zone is where all the action happens. The gegenpressing team relies on penning you into this area (ideally, as higher up the pitch towards your own goal as possible), whilst attempting to stop you from entering the space behind.

Once you recognize this, it becomes (hopefully) obvious that the key to unlocking these teams is to exploit that red zone and get in behind.

I think the biggest mistake people make (going back to the point I highlighted in red earlier) is that they try to beef up their defense, but in doing so, they blunt their ability to attack space.

 

Now you know the weak spots, what next?

• I believe the first thing to do is understand your own team. What type of team do you have in defense? What I mean is, do you believe your team is capable of soaking up pressure, OR is your team better suited to playing in more of a mid block, compressing space and pressing more urgently?  If you don't have a defense that handles crosses well, OR if you have a defense that is quite fast, you're probably better off trying to compress space in the middle, rather than sitting deep in a low block. A higher line is not automatically going to get throttled by through balls. The key is to maintain good organization, and pressing at the right time. Also, having smart players helps, too.
   
• The second thing I would advise is to look at what you're capable of in attack. Chances are that you won't be able to simply pass through the press like Barcelona or Man City. Remember the gegenpress feeds off your team's mistakes. The more passes you attempt, the more likely it is that a mistake will happen. This DOES NOT mean you shouldn't attempt risky passes or direct passes. Quite the opposite! I think some of the most dangerous passes to make in this situation are short passes.
   
• Why are short passes potentially dangerous? Because if you think about it, short passing requires your players to be close together. Being close together makes it easier for the other team to go from pressing one player, to pressing another. It also makes it much easier for them to intercept / move into passing lanes, shutting down your options on the ball. So, while you might think "hey, shorter passing is less risky and therefore we won't make as many mistakes" - I believe this is misguided. Short passing breeds the types of mistakes that gegenpressing loves to feed on.
   
• You want to keep the opposition on their toes in order to break the cycle of getting pinned back into your own half. I think, when facing a standard back 4 as an example, you want to have 3 willing runners on attack duties. Maybe you can use 2, YMMV, but I like the idea of 3 and I'll show you why in a diagram below.
  
  
  
  Space is the enemy of the gegenpress. I've highlighted in green (sorry lol) the spaces that I believe you can most easily begin to exploit.
  Assume that in this example, the white team's #11, 7, and 9 are all on "attack" duties. I want to choose roles that complement our idea of exploiting space, so I'll go with IW-A, IW-A and AF-A. All three are direct on the ball runners, AND off the ball runners. The advanced forward has the added benefit of chasing down misplaced through balls, so that's nice. You could probably utilize inside forwards here on the wide players, but I prefer the inverted winger because he's more of a creator than the IF.
  
  Look at all the options the front 3 has to get into dangerous areas! The channels between the opponent center backs + full backs are ripe for the taking.
  I also think it's really helpful to have a supporting player in the hole behind the striker, in this case, #10.  Why? Because not every long pass into space is going to work, and you need some variety. This player could also dribble by a defender, and cause even more chaos. He provides a passing outlet from a dangerous location, and I think it would be really difficult to rely SOLELY on long balls from the back.
   

What does this look like on the tactics screen?

Lots going on here. Basically, the approach could be described as "aggressive."

What we attempt to do is, first, compress the space the opponent has to play in by using a mid block + higher D-line + step up more. We get stuck in because I want to be combative. We counter AND counter press because we want to take advantage of the other team when they're at their weakest (which is when they lose the ball).

Why do we set the sweeper keeper to "roll it out" to center back? This is because I believe, when facing the gegenpress, it is beneficial to draw them on to you by playing out of defense. You need to ensure there is space behind them to attack into. It's also a much safer play than hoofing it.  HOWEVER - if the other team uses 2 strikers, and you use 2 central defenders, you might be well served to kick short to the full backs. At least the ball wont be directly in front of your goal, lol.

The key instructions here, in my opinion, are "pass into space" and "wide". Remember space is the enemy of the gegenpress. You want to stretch the pitch as much as you can, which makes it harder for the other team to cover passing lanes and close down players.

We also play at a lower tempo with mixed passing, and this is important too! The idea here is that certain players will be allowed to play more direct passes (as seen on the image). These players have good enough passing to where I trust them, and honestly, I think variety is important. The lower tempo might seem counter intuitive, because you dont want to get caught in possession. But this is not what you think it is. The lower tempo exists so that our players take a little more time on the ball to allow for runners to get into dangerous positions. If we just boot it quickly, we're less likely to create a good chance and keep the ball. We don't want to create unncessary turnovers of possession!

 

 

So I think that just about covers it.  OH! I don't use any OI's except for very specific situations where I feel they're required. It's not necessary to use them to implement this type of tactic. But it could be useful if you're very comfortable using them. 

This is not an "instant win" approach, or a guaruntee that your team will suddenly be smashing Barcelona on the counter attack. I fully expect to lose sometimes playing this way, because we're only using this approach in really tough matches that we're expected to lose (or at best, draw).

If you're facing a team who defends passively, this approach is not ideal, and will likely not work.

And, as with anything else, you should adapt based on the situation. Not everything is a hard and fast rule, in terms of the little changes and adjustments. What matters more is the larger principles of how to use / defend space, and what types of strengths + weaknesses exist within different systems of play. Those are things you have to understand properly.

Anyway, if you have questions please let me know!

Thanks for reading.

[Cleon]

Quote

Why do we set the sweeper keeper to "roll it out" to center back? This is because I believe, when facing the gegenpress, it is beneficial to draw them on to you by playing out of defense

Interesting that you say this as I find it suicidal, tactically. The gegenpress tactics will already be high and you don't need to draw them onto you. Here I'll show you an example of how why I had to disable play out of defence and how it can be catastrophic against the high press if you don't remove it.

The goalkeeper had the ball which meant the wide centreback and ball-playing defender dropped deeper and spread wide to give us passing options. The ball was played to the central centreback.

But as soon as it’s played to him, you can see the opposition has already started to press us quite aggressively. They’re not going to give us much time on the ball at all, this is why I didn’t want us to play out from the back. As that would add an enormous amount of pressure on ourselves for no reason. I want the ball to move up the field quickly, to help the players beat the press. Asking them to pass it around more at the back or hold onto the ball for longer periods is risky in itself. You increase the risk of the opposition forcing an error or giving the ball away cheaply. If we were playing out of defence here, we'd have 100% turned over the ball.

However by not playing out of defence, we gain the positional advantage because we can control the space behind the opposition and make the most of it. Faster transitions are key here, we can take out 5 or 6 of the oppositions players in one simple passing sequence.

 

 

We see how space opens up when the wide centreback receives the ball. Now he can drive forward here if he wants or has multiple passing options. Either way, we’ve beaten the initial press and now the opposition is shifting their position across the pitch to deal with the player in possession on the left side of the pitch. This is where wide centre-backs and ball-playing defenders excel. They can choose the safer passing options like the wingback or the attacking midfielder. But this isn’t why I’m using these roles, I want them to be riskier to open up the entire pitch with quick switches of play. What he does here is dwells on the ball for no more than a second or so.

Once the opposition has shifted over more, he hits a risky ball between the pressing forward and the advanced playmaker, to run onto. One simple pass and he’s taken out five opposition players in one move. Now we are on the front foot and a possible 2v1 scenario.

Playing out from the back we are either forced into a turn over, panic as we don't have the time on the ball required to play out of defence. Which means players are flustered and will hit any type of ball and pass in those scenarios. Nine times out of ten, you'll give possession away, anyway when playing against a high press if you dwell on the ball. You want to make use of those faster transitions to beat the press and get on the front foot.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cleon

[bababooey]

55 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Interesting that you say this as I find it suicidal, tactically. The gegenpress tactics will already be high and you don't need to draw them onto you. Here I'll show you an example of how why I had to disable play out of defence and how it can be catastrophic against the high press if you don't remove it.

The goalkeeper had the ball which meant the wide centreback and ball-playing defender dropped deeper and spread wide to give us passing options. The ball was played to the central centreback.

But as soon as it’s played to him, you can see the opposition has already started to press us quite aggressively. They’re not going to give us much time on the ball at all, this is why I didn’t want us to play out from the back. As that would add an enormous amount of pressure on ourselves for no reason. I want the ball to move up the field quickly, to help the players beat the press. Asking them to pass it around more at the back or hold onto the ball for longer periods is risky in itself. You increase the risk of the opposition forcing an error or giving the ball away cheaply. If we were playing out of defence here, we'd have 100% turned over the ball.

However by not playing out of defence, we gain the positional advantage because we can control the space behind the opposition and make the most of it. Faster transitions are key here, we can take out 5 or 6 of the oppositions players in one simple passing sequence.

 

 

We see how space opens up when the wide centreback receives the ball. Now he can drive forward here if he wants or has multiple passing options. Either way, we’ve beaten the initial press and now the opposition is shifting their position across the pitch to deal with the player in possession on the left side of the pitch. This is where wide centre-backs and ball-playing defenders excel. They can choose the safer passing options like the wingback or the attacking midfielder. But this isn’t why I’m using these roles, I want them to be riskier to open up the entire pitch with quick switches of play. What he does here is dwells on the ball for no more than a second or so.

Once the opposition has shifted over more, he hits a risky ball between the pressing forward and the advanced playmaker, to run onto. One simple pass and he’s taken out five opposition players in one move. Now we are on the front foot and a possible 2v1 scenario.

Playing out from the back we are either forced into a turn over, panic as we don't have the time on the ball required to play out of defence. Which means players are flustered and will hit any type of ball and pass in those scenarios. Nine times out of ten, you'll give possession away, anyway when playing against a high press if you dwell on the ball. You want to make use of those faster transitions to beat the press and get on the front foot.

 

Thank you for the reply, Cleon.  I do have to respectfully disagree.

 

Here's a screenshot of our buildup against RB Leipzig (they're in white).

The keeper rolls it out to N'Dicka, and yes he is being put under pressure, no doubt. But we now outnumber the other team 4 to 1 initially, and 4 to 2 when the AMR charges towards N'Dicka.

I'll take that numerical advantage because I know my players can handle that pressure, generally.

Here's another example of how we can build out from the back.

This move starts, again, with the keeper rolling it out to N'Dicka, who then passes to Max, who then passes to Lindstrom.

Max and Bellerin are providing good passing options for our center backs, and good support to their forward partners (when the ball is on their side).

We also have 3 players in the middle that have to be defended. Notice how the marker for Kamada is ball watching.

 

So I think, maybe in a 3 at the back system where you have less options in midfield / attack, playing out from the back against the gegenpress could be really difficult. But if you have enough options for a pass, it's extremely doable, particularly with a standard back 4.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by bababooey

[Cleon]

The screensots you've posted isn't gegenpress you're against there at that moment. The white shirts would be positioned much higher if they were. If it was Gengenpress then N'Dicka would have been closed down much more heavily. You also don't outnumber them 4-1, as 3 of the players you have available to pass to are never realistic passing options to begin with. Out of all the players in that screenshot, only the number 4, I guess that's Sow is initially a realistic passing option if N'Dicka was actually being pressed aggressively.

Quote

Max and Bellerin are providing good passing options for our center backs, and good support to their forward partners (when the ball is on their side).

Not sure what you are seeing here but in the 2 screenshots Bellerin is never a good passing option at all. He ends up free in the 2nd screenshot but compared to where play is and the ball, that's like saying your goalkeeper is a good passing option. In the 1st screenshot he has 2 opposition players between him and the ball 

When you break, you're then outnumbered too, 2 vs 5. 3 vs 5 at max if we count Lindstrom. Everyone else is playing catch up. Unless you are extremely lucky you aren't going to do anything useful or use the "space in behind" like you mentioned in your post.

Also the last bit about having less options in a back 3 compared to a back 4, I actually have more options as an outlet compared to a  back 4 in every sense for beating the press. In a back 4, the issues would be much worse as you're much narrower and the angles are much harder.

When facing a high pressing team, the backline is often the first line of defence. If the opposition presses with a front two or three, a back four will have to mark those attackers one-on-one, leaving the midfielders to deal with the opposing midfielders. This can create a situation where the pressing team has an equal or greater number of players in midfield, making it difficult for the defending team to progress the ball.

However, if the defending team deploys a back three, the center-backs can often split wider and create a 3v2 numerical advantage against the opposing attackers. This means that the wing-backs can push up higher, creating a 2v1 numerical advantage against the opposing full-backs. With these numerical advantages, the defending team can more easily pass around the press and create space to move the ball forward.

Look at my screenshots compared to yours. I have more forward options than you and better placed, we aren't outnumbered either. So not sure why you think I'd have less midfield/attacking options than you.

Do you mind uploading the PKM of the match above please so I can have a poke around please?

I'm not critiquing you btw. I'm generally interested. But both examples you posted have been really poor and not really shown what you wrote.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cleon

[herne79]

A good write up and a different take on things.

There will always be exceptions to the rule however imo playing out from the back with a low(er) tempo along with keeper roll outs against a gegenpress can cause issues and that style of play wouldn’t be for the faint of heart.  I’m not sure those 2 screenshots above are the best examples of playing around the press as you describe, as the press looks a bit on the flimsy side.  Hard to tell from still pictures.

If you’ve had success doing it that way then good stuff and as said above there will always be an exception to the rule.  Personally I’d go about things a different way but it’s interesting to see a different perspective.

[bababooey]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The screensots you've posted isn't gegenpress you're against there at that moment. The white shirts would be positioned much higher if they were. If it was Gengenpress then N'Dicka would have been closed down much more heavily. You also don't outnumber them 4-1, as 3 of the players you have available to pass to are never realistic passing options to begin with. Out of all the players in that screenshot, only the number 4, I guess that's Sow is initially a realistic passing option if N'Dicka was actually being pressed aggressively.

Not sure what you are seeing here but in the 2 screenshots Bellerin is never a good passing option at all. He ends up free in the 2nd screenshot but compared to where play is and the ball, that's like saying your goalkeeper is a good passing option. In the 1st screenshot he has 2 opposition players between him and the ball 

When you break, you're then outnumbered too, 2 vs 5. 3 vs 5 at max if we count Lindstrom. Everyone else is playing catch up. Unless you are extremely lucky you aren't going to do anything useful or use the "space in behind" like you mentioned in your post.

Also the last bit about having less options in a back 3 compared to a back 4, I actually have more options as an outlet compared to a  back 4 in every sense for beating the press. In a back 4, the issues would be much worse as you're much narrower and the angles are much harder.

When facing a high pressing team, the backline is often the first line of defence. If the opposition presses with a front two or three, a back four will have to mark those attackers one-on-one, leaving the midfielders to deal with the opposing midfielders. This can create a situation where the pressing team has an equal or greater number of players in midfield, making it difficult for the defending team to progress the ball.

However, if the defending team deploys a back three, the center-backs can often split wider and create a 3v2 numerical advantage against the opposing attackers. This means that the wing-backs can push up higher, creating a 2v1 numerical advantage against the opposing full-backs. With these numerical advantages, the defending team can more easily pass around the press and create space to move the ball forward.

Do you mind uploading the PKM of the match above please so I can have a poke around please?

Sure, I've attached it to this post.

FWIW, the match was played against RB Leipzig, currently managed by Pochettino. The pre match scouting report indicated they would be using a Gegenpress, and his profile does indicate this as his preferred approach.

I dont know how the AI tweaks things exactly, but I suppose it's possible they were slightly less aggressive at the moment described above.

As for Bellerin being free for a pass, what I mean is that he's available as a release valve if it becomes needed. I think you need players to be available in space for a quick switch of play to the opposite side.

 

RB Leipzig v Frankfurt.pkm

[Cleon]

At the start they are using gegen, you can see in this example. Your keeper starts the move;

You're struggling with the press and the only outlet is for the keeper to hit it long to the striker. Now it actually ends up as a good move as your striker wins the ball then gives it away, but your midfield players win the ball back. But initially this only comes about as you're struggling to beat the press because Skhiri has nowhere to go but to the keeper for the return pass. But you got lucky with the midfield winning it back after possession was lost.

16 minutes in and they've changed to a midblock as you are 2-0 up. Deservedly too. My point wasn't that you aren't successful it was that playing out from the back is a good strategy. In every example I've seen so far when you've had the ball at the back, you've struggled until they changed on 16 mins. Everytime they pressed aggressively you struggled to play out.

Like Herne says though it is great when it works and it can work. But imho it's not a consistent strategy. Not saying you are wrong here as we approach it differently

Your midfield recoveries are first class btw. I want to give credit here as I don't want to seem I'm singling you out and trying to pull you down as I'm not. Your recoveries are why you won this match, it's really good.

Thanks for the PKM too. I know it's not park of the thread but I really enjoyed some of the attacking play.

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by Cleon

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

At the start they are using gegen, you can see in this example. Your keeper starts the move;

You're struggling with the press and the only outlet is for the keeper to hit it long to the striker. Now it actually ends up as a good move as your striker wins the ball then gives it away, but your midfield players win the ball back. But initially this only comes about as you're struggling to beat the press because Skhiri has nowhere to go but to the keeper for the return pass. But you got lucky with the midfield winning it back after possession was lost.

16 minutes in and they've changed to a midblock as you are 2-0 up. Deservedly too. My point wasn't that you aren't successful it was that playing out from the back is a good strategy. In every example I've seen so far when you've had the ball at the back, you've struggled until they changed on 16 mins. Everytime they pressed aggressively you struggled to play out.

Like Herne says though it is great when it works and it can work. But imho it's not a consistent strategy. Not saying you are wrong here as we approach it differently

Your midfield recoveries are first class btw. I want to give credit here as I don't want to seem I'm singling you out and trying to pull you down as I'm not. Your recoveries are why you won this match, it's really good.

Thanks for the PKM too. I know it's not park of the thread but I really enjoyed some of the attacking play.

 

 

Cleon, I'm a long time reader of your threads / content so I am happy to receive any and all feedback.

I went back and rewatched the match and I feel we had a bit of good fortune early in the match.

As to the midfield recoveries, you mean winning the ball back right? Excuse my American ignorance, lol.

I think this tactic is, to some extent, fighting fire with fire.  So, hopefully I conveyed that properly in the thread.

Keep in mind, this is not our main approach, and I don't expect to use this more than a few times per season / as needed.

Thank you for taking the time to watch the PKM, it's much appreciated

 

[_mxrky]

6 hours ago, Cleon said:

At the start they are using gegen, you can see in this example. Your keeper starts the move;

You're struggling with the press and the only outlet is for the keeper to hit it long to the striker. Now it actually ends up as a good move as your striker wins the ball then gives it away, but your midfield players win the ball back. But initially this only comes about as you're struggling to beat the press because Skhiri has nowhere to go but to the keeper for the return pass. But you got lucky with the midfield winning it back after possession was lost.

16 minutes in and they've changed to a midblock as you are 2-0 up. Deservedly too. My point wasn't that you aren't successful it was that playing out from the back is a good strategy. In every example I've seen so far when you've had the ball at the back, you've struggled until they changed on 16 mins. Everytime they pressed aggressively you struggled to play out.

Like Herne says though it is great when it works and it can work. But imho it's not a consistent strategy. Not saying you are wrong here as we approach it differently

Your midfield recoveries are first class btw. I want to give credit here as I don't want to seem I'm singling you out and trying to pull you down as I'm not. Your recoveries are why you won this match, it's really good.

Thanks for the PKM too. I know it's not park of the thread but I really enjoyed some of the attacking play.

 

The left centre back is free in this entire clip and yet none of his team uses him.When the keeper boots it there's very little pressure on the lcb. He also has an overload in the build up phase 6 (+ keeper) v 5. Any team with top players would be able to play out in such a situation.

[Cleon]

4 hours ago, _mxrky said:

The left centre back is free in this entire clip and yet none of his team uses him.When the keeper boots it there's very little pressure on the lcb. He also has an overload in the build up phase 6 (+ keeper) v 5. Any team with top players would be able to play out in such a situation.

If the ball is played to the left centreback he still gets pressured from the attacker and is playing risky football inside his own box. Not sure how people can think this isn't risky? He doesn't have an overload in the build up phase either as lots of the player are not positioned to make use of it. Even if he is played the ball, it's the same situation as the keeper likely and he just hits it forward. I watched his entire match, this happened time and time again when they used an high press. This wasn't an isolated incident.

Not sure you understand what an overload is, if you think this is a 6 vs 5 for overloads. Just because you can see 6 players doesn't mean it's an overload. 

From the clip, when the ball is played forward he is actually outnumbered 6 vs 3 initially too as his players are too deep and gets really, really, really, really lucky that his striker won the ball somehow.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Cleon

[yuchd]

4 小时前, Cleon说:

If the ball is played to the left centreback he still gets pressured from the attacker and is playing risky football inside his own box. Not sure how people can think this isn't risky? He doesn't have an overload in the build up phase either as lots of the player are not positioned to make use of it. Even if he is played the ball, it's the same situation as the keeper likely and he just hits it forward. I watched his entire match, this happened time and time again when they used an high press. This wasn't an isolated incident.

Not sure you understand what an overload is, if you think this is a 6 vs 5 for overloads. Just because you can see 6 players doesn't mean it's an overload. 

From the clip, when the ball is played forward he is actually outnumbered 6 vs 3 initially too as his players are too deep and gets really, really, really, really lucky that his striker won the ball somehow.

So Cleon, what TI would you recommend when initial build up against gegenpress? Play it long to TM ? Play to fullback?

In your reply it seems your GK play the ball to wide centerback, but without "play out of defence" TI, he will proactively pass forward.

 

[Cleon]

43 minutes ago, yuchd said:

So Cleon, what TI would you recommend when initial build up against gegenpress? Play it long to TM ? Play to fullback?

In your reply it seems your GK play the ball to wide centerback, but without "play out of defence" TI, he will proactively pass forward.

 

We still play out from the back but it's not forced. Adding a TI to do something "forces" that thing to happen even if it isn't the best option and even when it has a low percentage of working. In my example we just play normal and the players look to release the ball to each other. I'd never distribute it to a striker like a TM though. As realistically what is the chances he can always win the long balls? And even if he does, he'll have no initial support. It's not a consistent way of playing.

You want to pass around the press, as this opens up space and gaps. Which in turns gives you positional advantages

Edited March 24, 2023 by Cleon

[gunnerfan]

19 hours ago, bababooey said:

FWIW, the match was played against RB Leipzig, currently managed by Pochettino. The pre match scouting report indicated they would be using a Gegenpress, and his profile does indicate this as his preferred approach.

I dont know how the AI tweaks things exactly, but I suppose it's possible they were slightly less aggressive at the moment described above.

This is one of my pet peeves with FM. If a team has been scouted as gegenpressing, but during the match moves away from it, that's something your Assman should be able to tell you about, since it isn't obvious while watching the match (and IRL that's what an Assman or other member of the coaching staff would do).

But I love discussions like this one. 

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, gunnerfan said:

This is one of my pet peeves with FM. If a team has been scouted as gegenpressing, but during the match moves away from it, that's something your Assman should be able to tell you about, since it isn't obvious while watching the match (and IRL that's what an Assman or other member of the coaching staff would do).

But I love discussions like this one. 

Agreed but I would also point out that sometimes the AI managers will use different formation for different tactics within the same team. So, as Leipzig chased the game late they switched to a 4-4-2 diamond narrow. The assistant manager didn't need to say anything cause I could see it change on the tablet thingy, and I could see it on the pitch too.

But, you're right that it was very difficult to spot them changing away from a Gegenpress early on, because the formation didnt change.

So, overall I agree with you

[bababooey]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

We still play out from the back but it's not forced. Adding a TI to do something "forces" that thing to happen even if it isn't the best option and even when it has a low percentage of working. In my example we just play normal and the players look to release the ball to each other. I'd never distribute it to a striker like a TM though. As realistically what is the chances he can always win the long balls? And even if he does, he'll have no initial support. It's not a consistent way of playing.

You want to pass around the press, as this opens up space and gaps. Which in turns gives you positional advantages

I'll echo what Cleon has said here because I think a lot of people assume that hoofing the ball long to a target striker is a viable way of consistently beating the press.
I think that is really naive, because most teams have big/strong center backs that can out jump or out muscle your striker. 
I think the caveat here, would be if you can get a numerical matchup in slightly in your favor, like using 2 strikers vs. 2 center backs. In that case, you're probably better off trying that approach because both center backs (likely) wont focus on just the bigger striker. You give them more to think about basically.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that one of the reasons why I selected "roll it out" is because in previous editions of FM I was always incredibly annoyed watching goalkeepers basically ignore instructions and just kick it long all the time.

That seems to have been fixed in 23, so I probably should reassess the way I approach that part of the game.

[The3points]

On 24/03/2023 at 01:44, Cleon said:

If the ball is played to the left centreback he still gets pressured from the attacker and is playing risky football inside his own box. Not sure how people can think this isn't risky? He doesn't have an overload in the build up phase either as lots of the player are not positioned to make use of it. Even if he is played the ball, it's the same situation as the keeper likely and he just hits it forward. I watched his entire match, this happened time and time again when they used an high press. This wasn't an isolated incident.

Not sure you understand what an overload is, if you think this is a 6 vs 5 for overloads. Just because you can see 6 players doesn't mean it's an overload. 

From the clip, when the ball is played forward he is actually outnumbered 6 vs 3 initially too as his players are too deep and gets really, really, really, really lucky that his striker won the ball somehow.

I do agree with you partially here but I agree also with @_mxrky in that a higher quality team (or even just 1 higher quality player) beats the press. The higher RCM when he receives the ball has the RB in loads of space and if he has his body shape right he can try and make a reverse pass out wide and the FB is in acres of space. In my opinion his first touch could even go towards goal because he can draw the winger even further inside leaving acres for the full back and winger to be 2v1. Even if his touch is horrendous, leaving the winger enough time to cut off the lane, he's made all the space in the world for his RCB who can then find the FB.

And while I agree that it isn't obvious how to find the free man, it seems to me like there is a numerical superiority in the defensive third, just when you get to really high numbers (6v5, 7v6 etc) the free man is almost impossible to find. That's why here is such a crucial moment to exploit because there's a 3v2 on the right flank, just the midfielder is facing the wrong way to exploit it.

This also seems to be a major pressing error from Leipzig as most pressing teams would have a fullback in the blue space ready to jump on the opposition's fullback in such a position when the winger has left his space to press. So that's why I also agree with you in the fact that back 3s are crucial in beating the press. Because a back 3 can make a "pseudo" back 4 while making space in midfield

Against a 3-2 buildup most teams in a 4-3-3 will go 5v5 (2 eights and 3 forwards), but if you allow the DLP or whatever to come deep to get the ball you leave acres of space for the winger or wing back to come inside, depending on who is pinning the fullback.

I do think you can try to do this in a 4-2-3-1

It is a little bit awkward however because the winger won't naturally move deep like an AM in a 3-4-2-1 though.

Edited March 25, 2023 by The3points

[Cleon]

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I do agree with you partially here but I agree also with @_mxrky in that a higher quality team (or even just 1 higher quality player) beats the press.

I didn't once say different though. But it's not really a strategy though is it (like was being claimed in the thread), relying on better quality players? Higher quality in theory will always be better, not only for beating the press but everything. But it's still not a strategy imo. Especially in FM because if you have high quality players/a really good team, then it's rare you'll face teams who do high press against you. Perhaps on the continent if you make the later rounds of the Champs League/Copa Lib. Or the odd big game domestically. Good teams very rarely face high pressing teams, on FM.

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The higher RCM when he receives the ball has the RB in loads of space and if he has his body shape right he can try and make a reverse pass out wide and the FB is in acres of space. 

Great in theory. But this is unrealistic when you're running towards the ball, receive it on your weaker foot and don't have time to shape your body. This is the same move I posted in the gif from a different angle;

Then when he takes his first touch;

This is the exact point you posted in the screenshot above. Not quite sure a right footed player is ever going to shape his body and pass it out to the right from this angle while being pressured. Even a better quality player likely wouldn't. It needs a 2 footed player.

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In my opinion his first touch could even go towards goal because he can draw the winger even further inside leaving acres for the full back and winger to be 2v1. Even if his touch is horrendous, leaving the winger enough time to cut off the lane, he's made all the space in the world for his RCB who can then find the FB.

Going backwards when you was more advanced initially, isn't really beating the press though is it if you keep going backwards? Only really works if you're passing around/through it in the scenario you mentioned. The only way this move ever works is if the fullback on the right side gets it but in this example he can't. It also brings about another issue then anyway, as he has 6 of his own players deep in his own half.....

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And while I agree that it isn't obvious how to find the free man, it seems to me like there is a numerical superiority in the defensive third, just when you get to really high numbers (6v5, 7v6 etc) the free man is almost impossible to find. That's why here is such a crucial moment to exploit because there's a 3v2 on the right flank, just the midfielder is facing the wrong way to exploit it.

Playing out of defence is actually a hindrance here and stops the 3v2 happening. In fact it is the reason why this happens;

 

 

If he isn't playing out of defence, then Sow would likely pass to the fullback. So I think we are in agreement with what we are saying. But the reason he chooses Skhirl is because he's instructed them to play out of defence. He's killed his own natural way of beating the press and we are again back to my original post. 

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This also seems to be a major pressing error from Leipzig as most pressing teams would have a fullback in the blue space ready to jump on the opposition's fullback in such a position when the winger has left his space to press. So that's why I also agree with you in the fact that back 3s are crucial in beating the press. Because a back 3 can make a "pseudo" back 4 while making space in midfield

He's actually marking the IW as it started from a goalkick. So it's good from Leipzig not to overcomit the fullback. This is another reason why playing out of defence isn't worth it, aside from it being ore risky. Look how this entire move looks diffent if the fullback received the ball? The entire pitch opens up and if he drives forward, there is a great chance a counter attack happens here. The move should have gone something like keeper > DC > RB > Drive forward and make the oppositions RB make a decision whether to step up or not. Either way it's win win and then see what happens when space opens up.

In a back 4 you can still beat the press easy imo. My comment was just aimed at the author who said I was more limited than he was, which I think is wrong. But to beat the press in a back 4, I'd keep it simple and base it on the formation. If it's a high press from 2 striker systems then distribute the ball to the fullbacks. If it's any kind of 3 with wide players, distribute to the centrebacks as you always have the advantage with the spare man.

[The3points]

9 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Great in theory. But this is unrealistic when you're running towards the ball, receive it on your weaker foot and don't have time to shape your body. This is the same move I posted in the gif from a different angle;

Then when he takes his first touch;

 

The alternate angle does make a lot more sense to me now, but I still think the issue is the first touch. To me it looks like he controls it and turns inside with his left. While on his right, he obviously takes it backwards a little bit but turns to the right slightly where the lane opens up for the reverse pass. I did think that the 8 was slightly further ahead than the FB in the previous screen shot (making it a more simple diagonally backwards pass), so in this case it is a lot harder, but I meant this in general as a pattern OP's team could use to break the press.

I also didn't know that Play out of Defence prevented passes from Sow the fullback. Aren't those type of balls the exact point of Playing out of Defence? The ball that finds the free man?

14 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Going backwards when you was more advanced initially, isn't really beating the press though is it if you keep going backwards? Only really works if you're passing around/through it in the scenario you mentioned. The only way this move ever works is if the fullback on the right side gets it but in this example he can't. It also brings about another issue then anyway, as he has 6 of his own players deep in his own half....

I don't think going back to the CB in this case is really the type of "backwards" pass that hurts you.

Right so here's the state of play at the moment. Ignoring the obvious pass from Sow to the FB, the 8 is option available. You can also see he's facing the ball ready to receive. The 7 is going back so he can press #2 in case #2 gets the ball.

So now here's what I mean by the first touch. He's gone inside in the match, but me as a right footer I'd instinctively prefer controlling with the inside of my right foot, and taking the ball with me away from the opposition. 2 is an option but it is a pass that you could send at 7, who's still charging down 2. There are certain situations where the midfielder could take a heavy touch towards 7 with the intent of drawing him in, but that's also dangerous and makes the final pass even harder.

Here with the simple pass, 7 has to go back and press 4, it's simply part of his demands and this just set's up a 3rd man run with 2 being the free man. If I was 3 I'd be charging out at 2 just get rid of all the space, and gamble that 4 can force 11 wide.

Obviously now it is an easier pass now that it is a 3rd man run, 8 is more prepared and in control to play the 1 touch pass.

59 minutes ago, Cleon said:

He's actually marking the IW as it started from a goalkick. So it's good from Leipzig not to overcomit the fullback.

In a high pressing side you have to ready to engage if your winger gets beat. In defence you already have a 5v4, with 10 ready to help defend, I think you have to be proactive in these scenarios and close the space at all costs. If 3 comes in at the right angle, the only ball that 2 can send is down the line which obviously isn't too threatening with a 4.5 vs 4 in the box. And of course if 3 was higher before, than 2 won't even have the time to compose himself and might lose the ball.

[Cleon]

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I also didn't know that Play out of Defence prevented passes from Sow the fullback. Aren't those type of balls the exact point of Playing out of Defence? The ball that finds the free man?

Play out of defence forces you to pass it more often, hence why it's risky. You wait for proper openings and try moving the ball forward as a team. Hence why it can be risky against high pressing teams.

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So now here's what I mean by the first touch. He's gone inside in the match, but me as a right footer I'd instinctively prefer controlling with the inside of my right foot, and taking the ball with me away from the opposition. 2 is an option but it is a pass that you could send at 7, who's still charging down 2. There are certain situations where the midfielder could take a heavy touch towards 7 with the intent of drawing him in, but that's also dangerous and makes the final pass even harder.

None of this happened though. I took an example from the game and just highlighted what happened. I'm not really sure of the point you are attempting to make now? I wasn't creating scenarios that didn't happen, I was just reporting on what happened. Ofc, I can also show what I think a player can do in this situation too but I don't see the point? We all know what could have been done differently.

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Here with the simple pass, 7 has to go back and press 4, it's simply part of his demands and this just set's up a 3rd man run with 2 being the free man. If I was 3 I'd be charging out at 2 just get rid of all the space, and gamble that 4 can force 11 wide.

So are we talking real life now rather than the game? As you mention "if you"?

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In a high pressing side you have to ready to engage if your winger gets beat. In defence you already have a 5v4, with 10 ready to help defend, I think you have to be proactive in these scenarios and close the space at all costs. If 3 comes in at the right angle, the only ball that 2 can send is down the line which obviously isn't too threatening with a 4.5 vs 4 in the box. And of course if 3 was higher before, than 2 won't even have the time to compose himself and might lose the ball.

Same as above really. Not sure on the point you are making? It's like you are trying to explain to me what high pressing is in real life. Before I got my Uefa B license, I had to do a presentation on pressing and then get marked for it as part of the course.

I was just pointing out how playing out of defence is risky against the high press and used an example from the authors game. Now we are creating fake scenarios of stuff that didn't happen and having pressing explained to me. I'm confused 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Cleon

[The3points]

5 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Play out of defence forces you to pass it more often, hence why it's risky. You wait for proper openings and try moving the ball forward as a team. Hence why it can be risky against high pressing teams.

None of this happened though. I took an example from the game and just highlighted what happened. I'm not really sure of the point you are attempting to make now? I wasn't creating scenarios that didn't happen, I was just reporting on what happened. Ofc, I can also show what I think a player can do in this situation too but I don't see the point? We all know what could have been done differently.

So are we talking real life now rather than the game? As you mention "if you"?

Same as above really. Not sure on the point you are making? It's like you are trying to explain to me what high pressing is in real life. Before I got my Uefa B license, I had to do a presentation on pressing and then get marked for it as part of the course.

I was just pointing out how playing out of defence is risky against the high press and used an example from the authors game. Now we are creating fake scenarios of stuff that didn't happen and having pressing explained to me. I'm confused 

I said this tactic was close to breaking the press if player made better decision, thus the tactic is partially successful (things like training and familiarity could fix decision making)

You said no, there isn't an option available here, they've played themselves into a corner due to Play ball out of Defence, without it they'd be free. 

Then in my latest comment I went and said an example of how the team could play through the press with much better cohesion while still playing out the back.

In terms of high pressing, I simply used some real life experience as a player and criticised the positioning of the fullback and pointed out that everything falls apart with a higher positioning of the fullback. Again I provided a hypothetical example to see what happened. 

Hope that cleared up my previous comment!

[dankrzyz]

On 25/03/2023 at 12:25, Cleon said:

Play out of defence forces you to pass it more often, hence why it's risky. You wait for proper openings and try moving the ball forward as a team. Hence why it can be risky against high pressing teams.

Apologies for resurrecting an older thread, but this has been a great read and I've found a lot to start using. My current save is with a relegation-fighter and I've been mercilessly battered by gegenpressing teams - and not felt like I had much direction on even how to try to approach these matches. Thank you @bababooey for giving me some direction on a thoughtful approach and others for contributing to the discussion.

In my limited experience with this particular element, the distribute to central defenders or fullbacks isn't the problem as much as the "play out of defense" instruction. I've had no trouble giving the balls to these defenders to start to draw the opponent toward me, a little bit, but once the ball is with those defenders, they should be playing up field before the pressure becomes too much and I'm overwhelmed deep in my own area.

[bababooey]

On 25/06/2024 at 15:01, dankrzyz said:

Apologies for resurrecting an older thread, but this has been a great read and I've found a lot to start using. My current save is with a relegation-fighter and I've been mercilessly battered by gegenpressing teams - and not felt like I had much direction on even how to try to approach these matches. Thank you @bababooey for giving me some direction on a thoughtful approach and others for contributing to the discussion.

In my limited experience with this particular element, the distribute to central defenders or fullbacks isn't the problem as much as the "play out of defense" instruction. I've had no trouble giving the balls to these defenders to start to draw the opponent toward me, a little bit, but once the ball is with those defenders, they should be playing up field before the pressure becomes too much and I'm overwhelmed deep in my own area.

 

My advice is to not get sucked into thinking you have to do things a certain way. My approach in this thread was highly tailored to the squad I had at my disposal at the time. Plus, it was FM23, which didnt have positional play, and that's a huge difference.

I've been going back and forth about the ideal way to handle a gegenpressing opponent. I'm starting to lean more towards trying to slow everything down, especially if you are a weaker team. This way, it gives  your players more time to make a decision.  The higher the tempo, the more prone your players are to making a mistake. And the whole point of gegenpressing is to win the ball back quickly and a huge part of how they do this, is by your team making a mistake.

On the other hand, by playing slowly, it allows the other team to regain their defensive shape more easily... 

So you can see how there are no concrete answers, because everything comes with its own risk v reward.