Playing out the back vs strong teams(Liverpool)

[julle17]

So I like making tactics and trying them with Arsenal, since i think they have a quite versatile strong squad, while not being incredibly op.
While making these tactics, and trying them i obviously end up playing Liverpool and City, who are for me notoriously difficult to play out the back against. I've been able to make tactics that win against them quite often, but not in the particular way i would like. Right now i am working on sort of an Arteta inspired tactic, but i wouldn't call it a replica. But enough of the style is still based on complete control, and i would like to be able to consistently be able to play out against the best sides aswell.

So my question is not necessarily about direct tactical changes i should make, but more have any of you been able to achieve in the first season playing out the back against those two sides, without being either Liverpool or City? And if you did, anything you think was reason for it happening

[CARRERA]

Can you be a bit more specific what exactly you mean by playing out the back? There is a difference between actually playing out the back instead of clearing the ball and using the „play out of defense“ team instruction. 

Playing out the back requires a relative high mentality (at least balanced, better go with positive or higher), so your defenders are willing to take risks (clearances are the low risk option). Superiority in your defensive third. So a 3rd defender or a DM is quite helpful. A teams passing directness that fits your needs, depending on how you are looking to build up. Additionally you can ask your GK to roll it out / play short. 

What you don’t want to do against teams that use a high press, is applying „play out of defense“ team instruction. It’s used to invite the opposition to apply pressure and therefore leaving space in midfield. This is achieved by patiently playing around the back to lure out a striker / midfielder. It works well against defensive / passive teams, but becomes super risky against aggressive teams with almost no benefits for your team.

[Cloud9]

59 minutes ago, julle17 said:

So I like making tactics and trying them with Arsenal, since i think they have a quite versatile strong squad, while not being incredibly op.
While making these tactics, and trying them i obviously end up playing Liverpool and City, who are for me notoriously difficult to play out the back against. I've been able to make tactics that win against them quite often, but not in the particular way i would like. Right now i am working on sort of an Arteta inspired tactic, but i wouldn't call it a replica. But enough of the style is still based on complete control, and i would like to be able to consistently be able to play out against the best sides aswell.

So my question is not necessarily about direct tactical changes i should make, but more have any of you been able to achieve in the first season playing out the back against those two sides, without being either Liverpool or City? And if you did, anything you think was reason for it happening

I would avoid playing out from the back against a high press/big opposition combiantion. IRL it's an approach that can work well w/ the right players, in the ME you end up getting bashed.

If you want to try anyways: a press resistant double pivot can help your back 4 play under pressure.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Cloud9

[julle17]

 

So here is an example of us playing out the back. The result with Saka getting the ball with Robertson in his back is not actually to bad imo, if only he played it back first time to White. We would've alleviated the first pressure, and be in a good position to consolidate in the midfield i think.
Now my biggest issue with the clip is the very first few seconds. 

I would've liked Saliba to make the pass into Ødegaard. who then lays off to White. From what i know it's not possible to specify a pattern like this, but in this instance against Liverpool i would've liked that to happen. For the most part i like the structure, apart from maybe Saka a bit wider.

[CARRERA]

15 minutes ago, julle17 said:

I would've liked Saliba to make the pass into Ødegaard.

To make that pass happen you need to play out of the back more directly I think. It’s a quite a risky and vertical passing option. A typical build up pattern for quick transitions.

[julle17]

These were his instructions for that game, and no play out the back instruction was on, just distribute to Centre backs

[julle17]

5 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

To make that pass happen you need to play out of the back more directly I think. It’s a quite a risky and vertical passing option. A typical build up pattern for quick transitions.

And i guess what i mean by playing out the back against a side like Liverpool, isn't patient faffing about in my own box, but when they press in the game there's always some man left open, so i guess what i am actually interested in, is if anyone have found a way to get their team to find the spare man consistently, when the opposition press as shown in the video, or just in general against a high pressing side

[CARRERA]

Is your teams tactical familiarity maxed out? And what is your teams standard passing directness?

Anyway, it’s always hard to discuss a specific case. There could be thousand reasons, why the player did actually make that pass and not the other. 

[julle17]

This is how the tactic looks, the three others in the defensive line and the dm have been told to pass shorter, otherwise there's not been touched any passing settings

[hibakuxa]

Just out of curiosity I take inspiration from Amorim. The manager behind Sporting that has recently eliminated Arsenal from the Europa league.

Anyway I started a save from the bottom of the bottom leagues: Vanarama South and picked the worst squad there. This is my 3rd season and I'm currently in League 2. So I'm still a long way away from the top teams and haven't tested this tactic at a high level. But I believe my team is doing what you are aiming to bigger opponents at my own scale.

TACTIC:

That's my last match passing map. I'm quite proud of it. More so, if you consider that the IFs have swapping position instruction. And every 15 minutes they swap to the other wing. So the map shows them clogged in the center (because they played in both wings and for the engine making their "average" position is there) but their true position should be somewhere midway the sideline and the center which gives me a passing shape very close to what I was aiming with the striker in PF-Su role opening the spaces for the IF-At to move forward.

The star ratings are not static.

That's from a match playing away and you can check my scouts assessment of their team 

My team odds at the start of the season. So the match was against 2nd place in this list.

Crewe - Cheshunt

xG 0.98 - 1.51 | Possession 37% - 63%

My squad according to my scouts --- My oponnent squad quality according to my scouts

 ------------------------------------------------------

Edited April 21, 2023 by hibakuxa

[hibakuxa]

Clicked the post button before finishing the post.

Anyway, the star rating system is not static, if I was Arsenal, my scouts would find Crewe a very low quality squad. But from my own quality perspective that's how my scouts see my opponent.

 

About instructions to the players in each position (besides the ones from their own role):

WB(R/L)-CWB-At - Take more risks

M(CR/CL)-MEZ-Su - Pass it shorter; Run wide with the ball; Tackle harder; Mark tighter

AM(R/L)-IF-At - Hold up the ball; Roam from position; Sit Narrower; Tackle harder

SC-PF-Su - Pass it shorter; Roam from position; Move into channels

 

Other notes:

- Because so many tactic dispositions don't have the WB position It's very hard to find WB natural at their position. Because I want them to go all the way to the line, I tend to adapt midfielders and attacking midfielders to that CWB role. I find D(R/L) players very defensive and at most I adapt them to DC-WCB-At. After all this player must be there to cover the WB when he moves up the pitch so he must have winger characteristics.

- It's also hard to find proper SC-PF-Su. But I've found that DC have good attributes for what is required from this position. My Striker is my first and most important defender, his main task is to defend and I don't care if he doesn't score. Well... I do, but you understand what I mean.

- Make sure to train Teamwork, Def. Shape and Att. Movement before every match for the added bonus they give to your team (I believe that passing shape that makes me so proud comes from the bonus these training sessions give). Also a type of Set pieces per match if possible.

- I take very seriously the preferred foot for the players in the wings both the WB and the AM. The outside foot for the player that goes to the line to make the crosses and the inside foot for the player that is supposed to cut inside to the box. For instance, in your case I would never play Zinchenko as an IWB or Martinelli as a Winger. Zinchenko plays with the left foot, he's the one going to the line for the crosses. Martinelli plays with his right foot, he's the one going for the box. I don't care if it says AMR or AML, I look at the foot he actually uses. Same thing for the WB.

- Even with my 2 WCB I aim to have a left foot in the left and a right foot in the right, although I'm less strict here.

- I have recently found out that we can give the instruction for 2 different players to swap positions from time to time. I've given the instruction for my IFs to swap between each other, but what I actually wanted was that they also changed their role upon swapping positions, becoming Wingers instead of IF and enabling me to attack in a different way. But I still haven't found out how to do this.

- My defenders have no tackling instruction, every player from the midfield up have the tackling harder instruction. I want my defenders to participate in building the offensive plays, even going up the pitch to support the attack in a fearless fashion. I want my most forward players to be my first and most important defenders.

- Fast Centre backs are key with my current tactic. 75% of the goals I concede are players running from the central line all the way alone up to my keeper. But only 4 in 11 matches these season in the league. The players I need with the higher pace attribute are my Center-backs because I'm playing with the instructions of Much higher defensive line; High press; and Step up More. In the first season of this save I preferred to play with a not so good central defender in terms of marking and tackling in the BPD role because he was the fastest. My reasoning was, as long as he can outrun the opposition he doesn't need to use his marking or tackling skills. And, to my surprise, it actually worked.

- What I still haven't achieved is a development of this current tactic where, with a few tweaks I can rise the volume, even if taking some risks, for when I'm loosing, or tying a match and I really need to score. I've never gotten consistent results whenever I try to tweak it a bit. For the cautious, defensive side, it's a lot easier.

 

That's it. Even if I am very proud of that passing map capture, I didn't write all this to brag, but because I think my team is doing what you are aiming and maybe you find in all I've written, the images shared, hints that you can use and adapt to your very own tactic. I'm not an hard core player that knows every trick of the game. I'm still trying to figure out how training works in a consistent way. So take everything with a pinch of salt. If you want I can upload the tactic I use. I have no problem sharing it.

 

Have fun!