442 flat defensive strategy

[nick1408]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

What do you like about using Guedes as a DLF instead of a winger?

Checked out his profile and some of his attributes would leave him restricted to wide dribblely boy for me at least (11 decisions, 11 composure, 12 first touch, 12 vision, 12 strength). IMO he would struggle as a DLF, both in hold up play and in playing in others. 

Simply trying different guys in different positions than what they have labeled as natural. Nothing to do with attributes. 

[Canalma]

5 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

What do you like about using Guedes as a DLF instead of a winger?

Checked out his profile and some of his attributes would leave him restricted to wide dribblely boy for me at least (11 decisions, 11 composure, 12 first touch, 12 vision, 12 strength). IMO he would struggle as a DLF, both in hold up play and in playing in others. 

Allow me. I'm only in my first season and got Guedes on loan. On paper, Gonçalo Ramos is actually my best DLF but he's also my best forward, so for now he plays the main man up top (AF). As for the right winger position I already got 2 great solutions on Rafa Silva and Neres, and I can't really complain about Guedes' contributions as DLF so far, 10 goals and 9 assists in 19 league games, he's fulfilling that role better than expected. Also, it's highly satisfactory to have my front line spearheaded by 2 academy boys 😊

Edited May 17, 2023 by Canalma

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, Canalma said:

Allow me. I'm only in my first season and got Guedes on loan. On paper, Gonçalo Ramos is actually my best DLF but he's also my best forward, so for now he plays the main man up top (AF). As for the right winger position I already got 2 great solutions on Rafa Silva and Neres, and I can't really complain about Guedes' contributions as DLF so far, 10 goals and 9 assists in 19 league games, he's fulfilling that role better than expected. Also, it's highly satisfactory to have my front line spearheaded by 2 academy boys 😊

Nice! How does he play in the matches compared to a more traditional DLF when you watch his movement in game? 

Great on the academy boys

[Canalma]

18 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Nice! How does he play in the matches compared to a more traditional DLF when you watch his movement in game? 

Great on the academy boys

I'm not very good at discerning things like movements or transitions, but he does have the 'comes deep to get the ball' trait, i often see him in the AM strata receiving the ball and turning it to space to either the right Winger or the Advanced Forward, I also noticed he also uses that trait to usually drag defenders away from Ramos to allow him more space to finish a play.

[Cloud9]

51 minutes ago, Canalma said:

I'm not very good at discerning things like movements or transitions, but he does have the 'comes deep to get the ball' trait, i often see him in the AM strata receiving the ball and turning it to space to either the right Winger or the Advanced Forward, I also noticed he also uses that trait to usually drag defenders away from Ramos to allow him more space to finish a play.

I do like the agility/balance combo on him. This year I've been valuing composure/concentration/decisions for seeing if a player is reliable and since Guedes the reference point for your attack-- things might break down a little more often than you'd like. Below 12 is pretty good cut off point when an attribute can go from being a deficiency to a liability at Benfica's level imo. I might try him out as a PF(s)?

Sounds like he's doing the job at the moment though, just food for thought!

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Cloud9

[mikcheck]

How do you guys deal with formations that use more bodies in the middle like against a 4231 or 433? Do you ask one of your strikers to mark the most defensive midfielder for instance? 

The problem is if you do that, you may also lose some attacking capacity, especially those quick counters. 

[mikcheck]

14 horas atrás, mikcheck disse:

How do you guys deal with formations that use more bodies in the middle like against a 4231 or 433? Do you ask one of your strikers to mark the most defensive midfielder for instance? 

The problem is if you do that, you may also lose some attacking capacity, especially those quick counters. 

I wonder what you guys, the ones using or that used a flat 442 do regarding this?

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, mikcheck said:

I wonder what you guys, the ones using or that used a flat 442 do regarding this?

In a 4-4-2 you have the flat 4 in midfield so you can always go Narrow to bring your wide players infield a little or you can go Wider to stretch them out a bit, let them worry about you 

[mikcheck]

3 horas atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

In a 4-4-2 you have the flat 4 in midfield so you can always go Narrow to bring your wide players infield a little or you can go Wider to stretch them out a bit, let them worry about you 

Are you speaking about  defensive or attacking width?

[Johnny Ace]

17 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Are you speaking about  defensive or attacking width?

Attacking 

[mikcheck]

2 horas atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

Attacking 

Let's say you're too using a flat 442 or I guess you do apply it to other formations: do you go narrow or wide depending on opposition? For example if they attack you and leave space you maybe go narrow and if they park the bus wide? 

[Tikka Mezzala]

Admittedly, I am playing at a much, much lower level than the Eredivisie, but this is how I've chosen to set up. 

I'm not settled entirely on the roles and duties. For example, the DLF role hasn't looked promising in preseason. I think this might be due to the limitations of the player, though I will play around with it and see if there's a way to get something out of him. I really want one of my strikers to link the play. I'm keen to give the RB an attack duty when I can so he can overlap the WM. But that would involve moving Cairns to the LCM slot and having him hold position, as he's the more defensively gifted CM. My LM is on winger attack because his pace is his key attribute, while the RM is quite slow, so he's not getting past the opposition fullback. 

Granger at LCB is aerially dominant against most opponents, so I've decided to trap the opposition outside and take my chances that we can deal with crosses. The CBs both lack pace, so we've dropped the line to cope with that, although I am going to watch and see if this creates issues for us between the midfield and defence. 

I've just tried to be fairly logical and to keep things comprehensible to myself. Since the roles are quite simple and the instructions are minimal, I should be able to have it all in my head and see when x, y or z is the issue, rather than having too many things to contemplate at once. 

[Harpoon76]

A really interesting thread - thanks to everyone that has contributed so far.

My current FM21 save is a(nother) Dafuge challenge with Tamworth.  Somehow, we got promoted to the VNL via the playoffs in our first season.  I started the second season with the same 4-3-3 DM but we had a terrible run, so I decided to try a 4-4-2 based around this FM blog post.

 

February was a great month for us.  March was just terrible, though in the two matches we lost 3-2, we were 2-0 down but levelled things up before conceding again (Chesterfield's winner was a 90th minute penalty).

Spoiler

We survived so the task now is to improve.  My concerns are:

• FBs consistently get match ratings of 6.3 or lower.  Looking at the stat's, they generally get ~50% pass completion, even if I add the Take Less Risks PI.
  • I wonder if having a CM(D) or CM(S) with the Hold Position PI might help give the left FB a better passing option - could the BWM be getting too far away?  I think I need to go back and look at their worst games to see if they are just smacking it up the pitch to nobody (obviously a weakness when trying to play direct in general though).
• The two wingers don't contribute enough assists (or goals).  I started with the IW on A and the W on S but that did wasn't great, so swapped the mentalities over.  My starting IW contributed 4 assists and 4 goals in 45 league matches.  Of the two right wingers, the "better" one managed 3 goals and 1 assist in 31 games,  the other 3 goals and 2 assists.  They really seem to struggle to get the ball past the first defender (though this is a general gripe I have with FM21, even when using Hit Early Crosses).  I do wonder if this is just a symptom of poor player quality? 
  • This means we become dependant on executing a good counter-attack or a lucky ball over the top which a defender misses and my Poacher can use his pace to get 1-on-1.

[mikcheck]

Em 19/05/2023 em 14:04, mikcheck disse:

Let's say you're too using a flat 442 or I guess you do apply it to other formations: do you go narrow or wide depending on opposition? For example if they attack you and leave space you maybe go narrow and if they park the bus wide? 

@Johnny Ace I'd like to know your take on this!

[marko82]

I have a very simple and successful counterattacking 4-4-2 that works even with Roma squad which is not 100 % suited to it (lack of a real targetman, i have to play Dybala as a poacher, lack of true wingers and Spinazzola plays as a fullback which is kind of a waste considering his technical abilities).
It's so good and incisive that i'm in awe, probably the best tactic i've ever made in FM
I'll probably make a thread about it, but here it is for now.
Fullbacks have PI ''cross more often'' and wide midfielders have ''dribble more'' (because you need at least one ball carrier but not too many in counterattacking tactics).
  

[mikcheck]

1 hora atrás, marko82 disse:

I have a very simple and successful counterattacking 4-4-2 that works even with Roma squad which is not 100 % suited to it (lack of a real targetman, i have to play Dybala as a poacher, lack of true wingers and Spinazzola plays as a fullback which is kind of a waste considering his technical abilities).
It's so good and incisive that i'm in awe, probably the best tactic i've ever made in FM
I'll probably make a thread about it, but here it is for now.
Fullbacks have PI ''cross more often'' and wide midfielders have ''dribble more'' (because you need at least one ball carrier but not too many in counterattacking tactics).
  

That's a really nice job!

If Spinazzola is technically gifted, why do you use him as a FB(s)? He has a CM(d) on his side, so he could have a more adventurous role like WB(s)

[marko82]

@mikcheck, i think i've tried it in the early stage of making this tactic, and somehow it ruined defensive balance (probably because of the ''run wide with the ball'' that WB(s) role has ), it was 6-7 months ago so i really can't remember, i will try him as a WB(s) and a FB(a) and will report if it upgrades my tactic even further