How to soak up pressure and hit a team on the counter as an underdog? [UPDATED for FM24]

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

@Cloud9

How do your wide midfielders fare in the midfield strata in the 442 DM? For a counter -attacking style, i've found having them in the AM strata for more dangerous on the break. For this reason I've been running this in my most recent season:

It is working well, punching well above our weight, (predicted to finish bottom again) but I would be interested in running the LM/RM in the midfield strata as my IF gets abysmal ratings!!!

They were necessary with the SV/RGA combo to provide some structure to a really expressive pivot. They also help funnel the opposition into the area we're looking to win the ball back in

• With them bumped up...you're in position to be a greater threat when you win the ball back, but you're leaving the double pivot exposed/it's going to be difficult to execute the mid block and win the ball back in the first place.

On the IF struggling: IF is primarily a goalscorer and will look to hit the same channels as the AF, so if you do stick with the 4-2-4 I'd swap the striker pairing so the IF/TF are next to each other. More importantly, I'd avoid the NCB role. He'll end up hoofing the ball with his hard coded PIs. Players the game recommends as NCB tend to have low concentration which makes them a huge liability in defense first systems. 

• If you end up looking to drop the wingers deeper, I'd recommend dropping the width to play to the teams strengths. If you end up dropping both back, just make sure you're still applying enough threat/pressure to the opposition out of possession (that's been a tricky point for me when setting a 4-4-2). 

When I play against the 4-2-4 in my own saves, I struggle if they pin me in (usually its's a front foot formation I encounter). On those occasions I usually step up from my conservative shape in favor of looking to control the game by taking over the middle of the park. W/the pivot overwhelmed, transitions become very difficult for the opposition, we've isolated the front four from the rest of the team.

• If you feel the system is letting down a couple of the roles but working overall for you, I'd recommend seeing if they're getting isolated like that (both by the opposition and the approach). In general I'd transition roles that aren't performing for you into one's that provide more teamwork/work ethic. 
• The backline doesn't seem to have a ton of players capable of making progressive passes, which will help w/transitions in the 4-2-4 and prevent the frontline getting too isolated. 

 

Was chatting about this above w/ @BlitzkriegBob25 but a 4-2-4 might be a cool opportunity to try out a WTM in that right hand slot  

Edited June 23, 2023 by Cloud9

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

but a 4-2-4 might be a cool opportunity to try out a WTM in that right hand slot

The 424 with WTM is incredibly good.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

 

Was chatting about this above w/ @BlitzkriegBob25 but a 4-2-4 might be a cool opportunity to try out a WTM in that right hand slot  

I'm going to give this 4-2-4 with a WTM a try, it'd actually solve all of my problems 

I have a few wingers on loan collecting dust and I couldn't decide on a system that would check all the boxes. Looks like I found it, for the rest of this season at least!

[toshimitzou1]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

 I'd avoid the NCB role.

Cheers for the feedback. My intention here was to provide consistent Direct Balls to the TM and Winger with players whom had low "composure", their concentration is easily adequate at 13 and 14 and they're are still young. I never rely on the in-game role recommendation . However, after your reply I did some statistical analysis and watched the replays of the NCB in the last five games and OMG!: The NCB is a weak link, hoofing anywhere, not to my intended targets. Gonna change to CB-Defend asap.

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

exposed/it's going to be difficult to execute the mid block and win the ball back in the first place.

Indeed, we are not winning the ball back in the middle of the park. However, the isolated double pivot operates more as a pest, shuttling the play to the wings where we are the geared to dispossess the opposition. Here is an example from our most recent display against a vastly superior RB Leipzig:

As you can see, our turnovers are happening out wide more often than not. Further more, the defensive mentality is at it's best when the opposition cannot play through you as our players are rarely stepping out of shapeWith the TM dropping deeper, the LCM is less isolated and stronger teams often result to low percentage shooting exemplified here:

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I'd swap the striker pairing so the IF/TF are next to each other.

So simple. I tend to like my stronger foot on the same side but as it happens both first and second choice AF's are both footed! Will give it a run out.

 

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I struggle if they pin me in

This is actually why I have opted for the 424. As we get stronger, I am going to have a back up tactic that I will run out for 10 - 15 minutes in each half that does exactly this

 

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

but a 4-2-4 might be a cool opportunity to try out a WTM in that right hand slot  

Not going to happen. I've already enjoyed a save where I utilised a WTM to great effect for about a season and a half. After that, every AI manager had savvied up and started deploying CB's in the FB berth. I remember playing versus MAN. C at some point in approx 2025 where even though I was an underdog, they played V V Dijk at LB to counteract my WTM. That was no fun. Unless I unearth a 202 cm WTM with 15 plus bravery and heading it is a no go. 

 

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The backline doesn't seem to have a ton of players capable of making progressive passes, which will help w/transitions in the 4-2-4 and prevent the frontline getting too isolated. 

Yes, were a re still at quite a low ability level but am looking to incorporate some traits when the correct players come along. 

 

Thanks for the help. Really hope I can get the IF firing with the simple swapping of TM and AF without losing the defensive presence the TF lends on that side of the pitch.

Edited June 23, 2023 by toshimitzou1

[Cloud9]

On 23/06/2023 at 13:55, Rashidi said:

The 424 with WTM is incredibly good.

Any tips on running a counter attack w/out an AF? 

I was trying out two W(a) w/opposite foot +  the attributes of quick forwards behind a PF(s), but couldn't get that same pushback on the opposition defensive line. 

On 23/06/2023 at 14:45, toshimitzou1 said:

Cheers for the feedback. My intention here was to provide consistent Direct Balls to the TM and Winger with players whom had low "composure", their concentration is easily adequate at 13 and 14 and they're are still young. I never rely on the in-game role recommendation . However, after your reply I did some statistical analysis and watched the replays of the NCB in the last five games and OMG!: The NCB is a weak link, hoofing anywhere, not to my intended targets. Gonna change to CB-Defend asap.

As you can see, our turnovers are happening out wide more often than not. Further more, the defensive mentality is at it's best when the opposition cannot play through you as our players are rarely stepping out of shape

No problem  You can play around with the passing PIs on the CD to get more of the effect you were looking for. The TF will act like a ball magnet anyways, the way a playmaker does, so your players will look for more direct transitions to them anyways.

On striker footedness, I wouldn't really worry about it (although a two footed striker is great if you can find one). 

Looks great on winning the ball back out wide, I haven't experimented too much w/ creating pressing traps in wide areas in my own play. 

On 23/06/2023 at 14:35, BlitzkriegBob25 said:

I'm going to give this 4-2-4 with a WTM a try, it'd actually solve all of my problems 

I have a few wingers on loan collecting dust and I couldn't decide on a system that would check all the boxes. Looks like I found it, for the rest of this season at least!

Sounds great 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

22 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Looks great on winning the ball back out wide, I haven't experimented too much w/ creating pressing traps in wide areas in my own play. 

Due to our shape this was only ever going to the best option. We will always have at least equal numbers on the flanks compared to the AI and with quite conservative roles through the middle of the park; lacking any excessive pressing, opposition play naturally gets funneled out wide where the more adventurous duties are ready to press. 

As a side note, i have adapted the tactic as my team  are now considered mid-table contenders (even though we are now in second place half way through the season).  In addition to my default tactic:

I have copied the tactic into another slot and added the TI's: Use Tighter Marking, Get stuck in and Be More Expressive. I implement this against any opposition where the scouting indicates a weakness at either Marking or Positioning or Off the Ball  or Mobility. This tends to be the case against the majority of teams towards the bottom of the table and really punishes those weaknesses.

With regards to the IF-Support getting poor ratings I have taken a closer look and stuck with the original setup based on the following:

1. You were spot on in your assessment that the AF and IF were often trying to attack the same space. However, this coalescent intention is creating acres of space for the RWB who is posting mega numbers - with the second highest rating in the Bundesliga and copious chances created:

 It is worth noting that I had planned for the RWB to be a back up creative outlet if the initial counter is not on and the AF/IF overload is really helping create space. My backup RWB Rui Sezoes is having similar joy although not to the same extent. This reward has however, come from forward planning - my RWB is actually a RM whom I have been training early to play RWB and as such has exceptional technical attacking attributes.

2. My IF's (Kuzmenko and Recalde) are both young and are playing a demanding role of both a scorer and creator. My entire tactic is all about exploiting space and whilst fairly speedy, both of these players are just one or two physical attributes off of what they need. As such, when they are receiving the ball in space, they have very little time before the opposition has recovered - stymying the direct nature of my intention.  In fact, against weaker opposition, where the opponent full backs tend to be slower, they have been putting in some good performances. I think this is more a case of player ability hampering performance and as such will persist whilst they develop.

3. I tried swapping the front two for five fixtures at the start of the campaign and whilst your astute observation on the IF was accurate, he did improve output and rating, this came at the expense of the defensive solidarity I mentioned earlier. Without the TM compressing space on the left hand side of the pitch, My LB and LCM were getting roasted by any semi-competent midfield trio. 

As you can see, the counter attacking style is still in full effect:

And in attack, we may be patient when defending but when we do win the ball we are dangerous:

And here is the league table where we are confounding expectations, especially away from home:

With regards my tactic I would like to note that PACE is only imperative in key positions : LW Winger - Attack, RW IF - Support and RS AF - Attack. Elsewhere not so much. If you can fill other roles with players with high - end mental attributes you are onto a winner. I would go as far to say that in this style of play, use your head: IF A PLAYER IS GOING TO BE ATTACKING SPACE, THEY NEED PACE. If not check what you've got.

Sorry for waffling on everyone  but again, this playstyle is entirely new to me and I am really enjoying it thanks to @Cloud9's many words of wisdom. I hope these words also help those aiming to achieve similar goals. 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by toshimitzou1

[jc577]

On 23/06/2023 at 02:18, Cloud9 said:

In terms of pure effectiveness of counter attack systems this year: I've found a 3-4-2-1 to be all powerful

Interesting! I've been running a high press 3421 with Frankfurt but been looking to transition into a counter system, any insights you can share?

[Rashidi]

On 26/06/2023 at 06:56, Cloud9 said:

Any tips on running a counter attack w/out an AF? 

Not to try? The AF is a good role for any system that seeks to find an early focal point for attacks and the AF is the best role for it.

Plus you can PI it to dribble more and take more risks so that he can break offside traps earlier. Only do that if he has the attributes for it.

[Cloud9]

On 26/06/2023 at 16:54, jc577 said:

Interesting! I've been running a high press 3421 with Frankfurt but been looking to transition into a counter system, any insights you can share?

Sure! Post your tactic and I can suggest some adjustments to help the transition  

Just in terms of general 5 at the back counter advice:

• 1 WB(a) 1 WB(s) is a great starting point
• I prefer BPD w/dribble more to WCB w/ a counter attack setup
• Midfield 4 need to all be good defensive players to effectively win the ball back (no passengers).

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

@Cloud9

Yo. As you're online I though I would pick your mind. As you can see from above we have been massively overperforming. However, we actually secured the EURO Cup and our reputation is going to skyrocket. Furthermore, the two Target Men I have been deploying are by far my worst players. In addition I have two Strikers returning from loan spells that are first team ready, young and more rounded complete forward types.

The question is this: What shape/formation would you suggest I could incorporate that utilises a Strike partnership that does not include a TM and still encapsulates the counter-attacking principles that I am adamant i am sticking with. Please note, I am anti asymmetric formations! Aside from that I am open to suggestions.

Don't worry too much about what players I do and don't have as I am in pre-season and can recruit accordingly if necessary.

 

hope you can help!

 

NB: I really want to incorporate a BWM Support into thee system but I feel the nature of the role contradicts the style I am trying to achieve. I'd appreciate your thought.

Edited June 28, 2023 by toshimitzou1
New info

[Cloud9]

9 minutes ago, toshimitzou1 said:

@Cloud9

Yo. As you're online I though I would pick your mind. As you can see from above we have been massively overperforming. However, we actually secured the EURO Cup and our reputation is going to skyrocket. Furthermore, the two Target Men I have been deploying are by far my worst players. In addition I have two Strikers returning from loan spells that are first team ready, young and more rounded complete forward types.

The question is this: What shape/formation would you suggest I could incorporate that utilises a Strike partnership that does not include a TM and still encapsulates the counter-attacking principles that I am adamant i am sticking with. Please note, I am anti asymmetric formations! Aside from that I am open to suggestions.

Don't worry too much about what players I do and don't have as I am in pre-season and can recruit accordingly if necessary.

 

hope you can help!

 

NB: I really want to incorporate a BWM Support into thee system but I feel the nature of the role contradicts the style I am trying to achieve. I'd appreciate your thought.

So if you're going to run a strike partnership w/out the TF, I would recommend the PF+AF. CF won't do a lot of defensive work and will float around, usually w/the counter attack I want a player who is either helping us win the ball back or providing an immediate threat to the opposition. TF offers you a very direct ball, so changing to the PF will offer you a different strength (something the other striker roles lack) in the ability to launch more counters. He'll also still hold up the ball for your AF which is quite nice. 

W/ those constraints (no symetrical + striker partnership) I'd run a 3-4-1-2. BWM(s) works pretty well in the CM Strada, so you could try playing your double pivot from there instead of as DM roles. Just make sure you pair him with a holding player. Maybe a CM(s) BWM (s) w/the CM told to hold? You would need all three of your midfield players to be defensively sound, but could work quite nicely. Moving the pivot up will help the PF as well.

PF(s) is probably the way to go, but it would be fun if you could get the PF(d) firing  

[toshimitzou1]

3 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

3-4-1-2

Sounds interesting. I'm assuming this is a flat MF, no WB's? Also, fair point about the CF. Would it be completely derelict to incorporate a Trequartista? Thes are my two thoughts:

a)

 

b)

Plan B looks suicidal! 

As you can see I'm uber keen on getting the TQ in.

[Cloud9]

23 minutes ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Sounds interesting. I'm assuming this is a flat MF, no WB's? Also, fair point about the CF. Would it be completely derelict to incorporate a Trequartista? Thes are my two thoughts:

a)

 

b)

Plan B looks suicidal! 

As you can see I'm uber keen on getting the TQ in.

I'd only use a Treq if he is so much better than the rest of your squad that you're going to carry him. But unless he is the next messiah I would move him on for a really well rounded AMC who can help you win the ball back. 

I would play with two Wingbacks for this formation. If you keep the Treq, two WB(s) will do.

Libero role can also land you in trouble and doesn't add too much to the counter. A CD in the middle and two BPD w/dribble more outside are great.

 

Edit: If you want to make the Treq work, I say go for it. Just watch how he plays and be prepared to drop him if he looks like a liability. Reducing the directness of play could help him get more involved in possession. I'd also drop the width here.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

3 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

But unless he is the next messiah

LOL, no. Thought as much. Got a couple of decent and aggressive AMC's that can do the job. 

Going to give it a definite run out in pre season. Here is what I am settled on

My thinking is the SS closes down and gives a double direct threat with the AF picking up hiis left overs. The player I have dto deploy as a PD defend has the traits comes deep to get ball so I'm hoping this double ''arrow; might really screw over the AI. Or is the middle going to be to 'hollow'? The AM;s I have available are oth converted strikers and are well suited to a SS. They would also operate comfortably as AM Support/Attack.

I've got to be frank- never been one to deploy AM's usually. 

[Cloud9]

11 minutes ago, toshimitzou1 said:

LOL, no. Thought as much. Got a couple of decent and aggressive AMC's that can do the job. 

Going to give it a definite run out in pre season. Here is what I am settled on

My thinking is the SS closes down and gives a double direct threat with the AF picking up hiis left overs. The player I have dto deploy as a PD defend has the traits comes deep to get ball so I'm hoping this double ''arrow; might really screw over the AI. Or is the middle going to be to 'hollow'? The AM;s I have available are oth converted strikers and are well suited to a SS. They would also operate comfortably as AM Support/Attack.

I've got to be frank- never been one to deploy AM's usually. 

SS should be just fine for that role. I'd only be concerned if he doesn't have the attributes to contribute defensively. If the middle of the pitch ends up feeling to open, keep dropping the width to fairly narrow (which you probably want to do anyways w/ the current setup).

W/ the Treq out, flipping one of the WB roles to attack will add a bit of punch when you do win the ball back. 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

3 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

W/ the Treq out, flipping one of the WB roles to attack will add a bit of punch when you do win the ball back. 

That is exactly what I was thinking. My RWB is a converted winger so that idea is a shoe in. Plus, the CM is being told to hold position which will offer some cover. 

 

5 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

SS should be just fine for that role. I'd only be concerned if he doesn't have the attributes to contribute defensively

Are we talking technical, mental or physical. If physical the are easily above average, mentally good endeavour but technically not the greatest at defending. Thoughts?

NB: Epic help so far.

[Cloud9]

38 minutes ago, toshimitzou1 said:

That is exactly what I was thinking. My RWB is a converted winger so that idea is a shoe in. Plus, the CM is being told to hold position which will offer some cover. 

 

Are we talking technical, mental or physical. If physical the are easily above average, mentally good endeavour but technically not the greatest at defending. Thoughts?

NB: Epic help so far.

Nice! that sounds great.

On attributes:

• Non-negotiables for me are aggression, anticipation, concentration, strength. At your teams level, if a player doesn't have 12 in those attributes I move them on. Special mention for decisions which varies a ton depending on the position, but needs to be competent. 
• For an AMC strata player there's a little more wiggle room, a mistake isn't the end of the world and you want him to actually score for you.
• Aside from those attributes you want to make sure he can run a lot and if he can tackle he's a diamond. 
• If you look up the profile of Samuele Ricci that's the archetypal player my systems look for. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

2 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

aggression, anticipation, concentration, strength

Totally agree. Have this running through the team.

For the AM I agree I will have to compromise a little.

Current encumberments: Running round like Vardy. Check. Tackling like Ian Wright, unfortunately check. Might recruit here.

I know Ricci. Totally understand your example.

Time to get set. Here's the final draft:

Few notes:

- Chose higher tempo as my players are blessed with a good first touch, It should really help us against the big boys in Europe.

- I have to really good, young BWM's. 18 in both aggression and Bravery, 15 in workrate and 12 in Dribbling and both only twenty years old. I've got big hopes for this role.

Couple of PI's:

BPD - Dribble more.

RCM - Hold Position

LCM - Dribble more, pass it shorter.

PF: Pass it shorter.

 

Thanks again. Hope the PF -Defend does well. Never used it before!

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Totally agree. Have this running through the team.

For the AM I agree I will have to compromise a little.

Current encumberments: Running round like Vardy. Check. Tackling like Ian Wright, unfortunately check. Might recruit here.

I know Ricci. Totally understand your example.

Time to get set. Here's the final draft:

Few notes:

- Chose higher tempo as my players are blessed with a good first touch, It should really help us against the big boys in Europe.

- I have to really good, young BWM's. 18 in both aggression and Bravery, 15 in workrate and 12 in Dribbling and both only twenty years old. I've got big hopes for this role.

Couple of PI's:

BPD - Dribble more.

RCM - Hold Position

LCM - Dribble more, pass it shorter.

PF: Pass it shorter.

 

Thanks again. Hope the PF -Defend does well. Never used it before!

Cool, hope it works well for you! I would recommend high tempo whenever you try to counter attack. Sounds like a great BWM

• I'd play around with the passing meters a lot w/this lineup. W/no playmaker you want a handful of your players being asked to go more direct when they receive the ball. A couple playmaking traits could help address this as well.
• I'd swap the AF on the left and PF(d) on the right. This will give a better pressing area in the center and an attack not entirely focused down the right.
• If you run into trouble, or when you're up against big sides, I'd drag the passing directness up a little.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[jc577]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Sure! Post your tactic and I can suggest some adjustments to help the transition  

Thanks mate! I've attached the tactic, let me know your thoughts. I've seemingly already followed some of the more generic principles but eager to develop the counter attacking approach further. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by jc577
Image too big

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, jc577 said:

Thanks mate! I've attached the tactic, let me know your thoughts. I've seemingly already followed some of the more generic principles but eager to develop the counter attacking approach further. 

Team instructions:

• Mid block/mid defensive line
  • The goal is to win the ball back between the mid 4, so it suits the system best I think. Mid defensive line is a good starting point, doesn't leave you too exposed or invite too much pressure.
• Remove Counter-press, add Distribute Quickly and Counter
  • Counter-press will tire the boys out, and they'll get beaten more often. Just use it for sections of the match.
• Passing, Pass into space
  • Would start out with more direct passing in a counter attack
    • Play with the passing sliders in the PIs so only the capable players are being asked to launch an attack.
    • Any player you ask to "take more risks" will look to pass into space more.
    • Sticking playmaking traits on capable players is another good way to achieve this.
  • Add Pass into Space to help launch those counters.
• Trap inside off
  • I'd start off without using these before trying to add them in. We can use "mark tighter" on the wingbacks to help funnel the opposition inside anyways.
• Mentality
  • Defensive or Positive are the two mentalities I would recommend for an effective counter. 
  • Would play around with this, it'll affect how everything plays in your tactic. Personally I like a defensive mentality for how much it reduces the intensity, allowing me to ramp that up in sections of a match. Both are totally workable and it mostly comes down to personal preference. 
• Play out from Defence off
  • This is the big one, unfortunately it just doesn't work very well when you're inviting pressure and will see you caught out.

Team changes:

• Double pivot 
  • This needs the most work. I would recommend a DLP(s) BWM (d) or a DM(s) DM(d) as two good starting combinations for a pivot, again personal preference. You'll want at least one of them to have hold position, or even both. 
    • If you play the DLP(s) BWM(d) it's important to ask the DLP to go more direct and take more risks, they're primarily a recycler of possession, so this will see them try to counter for you. You can also try to run a RGA with a holding midfielder, who offers great passes for a counter attack (but roams defensively so you give up some defensive structure). 
• AM Strata
  • Attributes on these guys is key, you don't want fancy AMC players here. I outlined to @toshimitzou1 above what I look for in players for the squad, but with a box 4 midfield their job is to press effectively to win the ball back in combination with the double pivot. 
  • AP/SS combo is fine, my personal preference is two AMC roles behind the striker one on support, one on attack and then tinkering a lot in their PIs. 
    • If you go with a no playmaker setup, your counter attacks can be more dynamic since there's not a ball magnet in the team. You will need to do the passing meters for each player like I mention though, or it won't come off. You've got to pull the TI passing meter around a bit to do it, but once you get the hang of it it's quite easy. Same thing with the pressing meters on player, which I'd recommend you use as well.
• Midfield 4, goalkeeper and striker are the positions I'd look to have the highest quality players in when dipping into the transfer market. They're the positions that make or break the tactic. After you've locked those down a quality center back for the middle of the back three is a nice next step. In terms of priority I'd go 1. Goalkeeper 2. Midfield box 3. Striker 4. Main CB 5. Everyone else. 

Aside from the, just watch the matches in full and try to make proactive changes if you see something going wrong. Conceding early can be quite tricky if they end up sitting back. I think I've detailed how I look to make changes earlier  in the thread (hit crosses early is a big one for the mid block, pass maps, match momentum etc.).

I'd really recommend focusing on squad building with a setup like this and bringing in a first 11 you can rely on. You'll also want to actively recruit squad members who can sub for someone on a yellow, or bring something new like a bit of creativity/hard tackling if the game isn't going your way. They shouldn't be good enough to start for you, so they won't demand game time, but good enough to do a specific job when they come on.

Hope some of that is useful to you

Edited June 28, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

22 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Cool, hope it works well for you! I would recommend high tempo whenever you try to counter attack. Sounds like a great BWM

• I'd play around with the passing meters a lot w/this lineup. W/no playmaker you want a handful of your players being asked to go more direct when they receive the ball. A couple playmaking traits could help address this as well.
• I'd swap the AF on the left and PF(d) on the right. This will give a better pressing area in the center and an attack not entirely focused down the right.
• If you run into trouble, or when you're up against big sides, I'd drag the passing directness up a little.

Hey. I immediately swapped the strikers in time for pre season. Well, I've got to say I enjoy watching our 'disgusting' brand of football. We are not at full tactical familiarity and are playing two really underdeveloped players in the first XI but, this is a very promising start:

Not bothered about the Man. C result. They are vastly superior and have Mbappe and Haaland up top in a 442.. All three of their goals were worldies.

 

Onto the observations:

• Very solid at the back, which can only improve with an increase in team cohesion and tactical familiarity (see RBL pic):
• The chance we do create are of  high quality (see Hamburg pic).
• The PF- Defend and the Shadow striker look like a dream team (and the SS is only bloody 16yo). This could be the start of something beautiful (see third pic)
• Have added More direct passing to the central CB and the RCM - Support.
• My AF is struggling for goals but is playing an important role in opening up space. I hope the goals will start to flow.

 

 

All inn all looking good so far. 

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Hey. I immediately swapped the strikers in time for pre season. Well, I've got to say I enjoy watching our 'disgusting' brand of football. We are not at full tactical familiarity and are playing two really underdeveloped players in the first XI but, this is a very promising start:

Not bothered about the Man. C result. They are vastly superior and have Mbappe and Haaland up top in a 442.. All three of their goals were worldies.

 

Onto the observations:

• Very solid at the back, which can only improve with an increase in team cohesion and tactical familiarity (see RBL pic):
• The chance we do create are of  high quality (see Hamburg pic).
• The PF- Defend and the Shadow striker look like a dream team (and the SS is only bloody 16yo). This could be the start of something beautiful (see third pic)
• Have added More direct passing to the central CB and the RCM - Support.
• My AF is struggling for goals but is playing an important role in opening up space. I hope the goals will start to flow.

 

 

All inn all looking good so far. 

Looks like a promising start  What's the profile of your AF? 

If the SS is only 16 playing him is something you might want to delay. He will get tired really quickly, and more importantly, he won't progress as well as if he was in the u18s. They mostly develop through training before their 18th birthday I believe. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Looks like a promising start  What's the profile of your AF? 

If the SS is only 16 playing him is something you might want to delay. He will get tired really quickly, and more importantly, he won't progress as well as if he was in the u18s. They mostly develop through training before their 18th birthday I believe. 

Not to worry. The AF has started performing as we have become tactically aware.  6 goals in 10 games is perfect. Don't worry about the 16yo SS. I'm the king of squad rotation and I've never had trouble developing youngsters (I've successfully completed two youth only challenges). Check him out:

 

I go by the old adage: If they're good enough, they're old enough. Once those mentals come along he is going to be deadly. I've only ever found it a hinderance to promote a youth player too young when they aren't getting the minutes and languishing on the bench. Far better getting 60 minutes per game at a high level with decent ratings and good quality training in between.

[mikcheck]

Em 28/06/2023 em 03:35, Cloud9 disse:

 

• Aside from those attributes you want to make sure he can run a lot and if he can tackle he's a diamond. 

That's like finding a coke in the desert  I like to play on lower blocks even If I'm the better team and I'd like all my players could have the ability to tackle, but that's almost impossible, finding creatives who can do it.

I guess that's why you said he´s a diamond

[toshimitzou1]

10 hours ago, mikcheck said:

That's like finding a coke in the desert  I like to play on lower blocks even If I'm the better team and I'd like all my players could have the ability to tackle, but that's almost impossible, finding creatives who can do it.

I guess that's why you said he´s a diamond

Can happen if you plan ahead. Check this guy out whom came into my youth team last intake.

Now, because I intend to use a Pressing Forward - Defend for the foreseeable future, I have placed him in the defending training unit ,

whilst giving him individual training in shooting. If he progresses into a 'world class player' I would expect his finishing and tackling to end up at about 12. 

In a similar vein, I've unearthed a CB whom is joining from Brazil next year that has 8 for finishing , 10 for off the ball and 15 for technique. When he arrives, I will place him in the attacking unit and train his attacking mentals and technicals individually. 

NB: With this king of approach it is important to:

1) Make sure you have quality youth coaches with min 15 for working with youngsters and

2) Have control over youth training schedules to ensure that the relevant sessions are actually going to train the relevant attributes.

[Cloud9]

12 hours ago, mikcheck said:

That's like finding a coke in the desert  I like to play on lower blocks even If I'm the better team and I'd like all my players could have the ability to tackle, but that's almost impossible, finding creatives who can do it.

I guess that's why you said he´s a diamond

Yea it can take some time, but whenever you add a specific culture to your recruitment you end up narrowing your field quite a bit.

I ended up playing more traditional ball playing DM players up in the AMC strata to fix that problem for me. They carried decent creativity/flair. A lot of DM players have strong long shots while being able to do the physical side of the game I was looking for. 

Also the tackling is nice, but it's not as impactful as the mentals/physicals. If you find a player who fits but doesn't have it, don't worry too much. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

This might be my favourite example so far:

Whenever Liebzig had any sort of angle to shoot, there were a minimum of 3 bodies between the player and the goal. Our goal?: RBL trying to play out from the back, PF-D and Shadow Striker marking the easy passes to DM and other CB - AF nips in and chips the keeper from 20 yards. Critical result aswell. RBL now have Pep in charge and they were right behind us.

This is the key (for me) to a counter attacking set-up. Have players and a shape that can prevent easy CCC's whilst having roles, duties and suitable players that can exploit any lapses in concentration from the opposition.

Edited June 29, 2023 by toshimitzou1

[toshimitzou1]

More counter attacking magic. After sucker punching RBL we have effectively claimed our first Bundesliga title with this epic victory over an all conquering Bayern whom have won the league this many times:

In this journeyman save I took the job in the German lower league because I thought it would take years to break the Bayern stranglehold. 

I do in fact believe that, if I had not been incorporating the counter-attack style and had instead followed my normal path of high press and possession, this would have taken far longer than the four years it appears it will take. Only four years from promotion to toppling Bayern! COUNTER - ATTACK rules.

Here's the match stats:

And again, time after time Bayern were just running into bodies (too offset Moukoko's presence on the Left Wing I instructed my RCM to Stay Wider in Possession in order to be better suited to stop a counter if ours failed) and shooting in congestion. After they went 1-0 down they started losing their composure (probably as they are not used to it - this is their first defeat of the season!) and their body language was utterly detrimental to their final performance.

This is now how the table looks:

I cannot see us slipping up now with six games to go and both Bayern and RBL played twice.

As a further note, what a revelation the Pressing Forward - Defend has been!

The role is a perfect foil for other attacking roles in this kind of set-up (AF and SS) - Kudos to @Cloud9 for suggesting. I don't think either of us would have expected these kind of results. 

Here is what has been doing the business:

Well, I've also drawn Bayern in the CL quarters and the domestic cup semi-final. Let's see where this goes.

 

ECL and DFB - Pokal results: 

Well, they still can't beat us but they done us on penalties in both cups AET! 

Even worse, I forgot to train penalties before either fixtures. Doh. I always remember to do this usually. 

 

Finally toppled Bayern with a game to spare:

Going to post a season write up later with a full look at the capabilities, strengths AND weaknesses of a counter - attacking style of play.

Edited July 1, 2023 by toshimitzou1
Title Result

[toshimitzou1]

On 28/06/2023 at 20:44, Cloud9 said:

Personally I like a defensive mentality for how much it reduces the intensity, allowing me to ramp that up in sections of a match.

This is good advice and is often the difference in close games.

[TheMartello]

5 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

More counter attacking magic. After sucker punching RBL we have effectively claimed our first Bundesliga title with this epic victory over an all conquering Bayern whom have won the league this many times:

In this journeyman save I took the job in the German lower league because I thought it would take years to break the Bayern stranglehold. 

I do in fact believe that, if I had not been incorporating the counter-attack style and had instead followed my normal path of high press and possession, this would have taken far longer than the four years it appears it will take. Only four years from promotion to toppling Bayern! COUNTER - ATTACK rules.

Here's the match stats:

And again, time after time Bayern were just running into bodies (too offset Moukoko's presence on the Left Wing I instructed my RCM to Stay Wider in Possession in order to be better suited to stop a counter if ours failed) and shooting in congestion. After they went 1-0 down they started losing their composure (probably as they are not used to it - this is their first defeat of the season!) and their body language was utterly detrimental to their final performance.

This is now how the table looks:

I cannot see us slipping up now with six games to go and both Bayern and RBL played twice.

As a further note, what a revelation the Pressing Forward - Defend has been!

The role is a perfect foil for other attacking roles in this kind of set-up (AF and SS) - Kudos to @Cloud9 for suggesting. I don't think either of us would have expected these kind of results. 

Here is what has been doing the business:

Well, I've also drawn Bayern in the CL quarters and the domestic cup semi-final. Let's see where this goes.

What player instructions did you use?

 

Awesome results!

[mikcheck]

14 horas atrás, Cloud9 disse:

Yea it can take some time, but whenever you add a specific culture to your recruitment you end up narrowing your field quite a bit.

I ended up playing more traditional ball playing DM players up in the AMC strata to fix that problem for me. They carried decent creativity/flair. A lot of DM players have strong long shots while being able to do the physical side of the game I was looking for. 

Also the tackling is nice, but it's not as impactful as the mentals/physicals. If you find a player who fits but doesn't have it, don't worry too much. 

I only have access to players recommended by my scouts as I leave that department to my chief scout, it keeps more realtistic and a bit harder to find players. I don't use player search or assign any scouting task.

But that's a good ideia, bringing a DM to that position, as long as they have decent creativity of course and passing

[toshimitzou1]

3 hours ago, TheMartello said:

What player instructions did you use?

I have  few that I use to aid transitions and enable ball retention when applicable. These are in force for every fixture.

- RCM and CCB: More Direct Passing.

- RS and LCM: Pass it shorter.

- LS and CCAM: Mark Tighter.

- RCB, LCB and LCM: Dribble more.

I do however, make minor tweaks based on what I am predicting and/or seeing in game. The most common PI I add is stay wide on either the LCM and LCB or the RCM and RCB or just one of the two. This is usually the case when playing against a Winger on their stronger foot.

Furthermore, as @Cloud9 pointed out, player traits can really help in transitions and change the way the tactic plays. EG: My Pressing forward possesses comes deep for ball whilst my BWM likes to run with ball through centre and get forward whenever possible.  Plus, a spread of passing and dribbling traits (tries long range passes, switch ball to other flank, Brings ball out of Defence and tries killer balls) are peppered around suitable squad members. These have been deliberately trained to first XI and the subs bench in order to change the game when needed. As an example, if we are chasing a game I bring on this gut at LWB:

 

What I am trying to convey is that the counter attacking style of play, brought to me by this thread and the astute assistance of @Cloud9, is as much reliant on the skill of the manager as it is the tactics and players. Indeed, the devil is in the detail.

[toshimitzou1]

@Cloud9 Hey there. Epic success this season. Thank you for all the assistance.

Want to pick your brain again if that is alright? Thinking about switching to 41212 Narrow next season. I've got a plan in mind. Let me know when you're online so i can run it by you if that's ok?

[Cloud9]

On 30/06/2023 at 05:47, mikcheck said:

I only have access to players recommended by my scouts as I leave that department to my chief scout, it keeps more realtistic and a bit harder to find players. I don't use player search or assign any scouting task.

But that's a good ideia, bringing a DM to that position, as long as they have decent creativity of course and passing

That's a really nice way to play the game.

If you do end up assigning scouts via tasks you can set them to look for specific metrics you're interested in (as to attributes on previous versions) which can be a nice twist. You could limit yourself to scouting outside the big nations for a similar difficulty, while getting a more specific scope of player. 

20 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

@Cloud9 Hey there. Epic success this season. Thank you for all the assistance.

Want to pick your brain again if that is alright? Thinking about switching to 41212 Narrow next season. I've got a plan in mind. Let me know when you're online so i can run it by you if that's ok?

If you pull together a tactic I can take a look, but I haven't experimented too much with a diamond in counter attack based play. You'd probably look to have the diamond have CAR/MEZ and both wingbacks going forward. You'll also need especially tall CBs with the space conceded outside.

Aside from that it's probably pretty similar to the formations above in what you're looking for from roles/players.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

13 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You'll also need especially tall CBs with the space conceded outside.

Lol. Like this:

and this:

Not my first rodeo my friend.

Here's what I am looking at:

 

I've never used a Roaming Playmaker and I am determined to make it work. I've removed Play for Set Pieces  as I do not have players with the required delivery ability. I will reinstate it if I can recruit accordingly.

PI's:

- LWB, More Direct Passes, Sit Narrower. (Want him to be looking to get it to the RPM as fast as possible or look long to the AF.

- RCB, Dribble More.

- DM, More direct Passes, Take More Risks.

- LCM, Dribble More, Pass it Shorter.

- RCM, Stay Wider, Hold Position

- LS and CAM, Mark Tighter.

- RS, Pass it Shorter.

NB: My roaming Playmaker has traits: Gets forwards Whenever Possible and Runs Through Centre (deliberately trained) and is a real gem:

One question: For security I have placed Hold Position on the RCM. However, I am considering the benefit of letting him loose as there will be the DM to cover. Arrgh. Not sure. Thoughts?

[Cloud9]

18 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Lol. Like this:

and this:

Not my first rodeo my friend.

Here's what I am looking at:

 

I've never used a Roaming Playmaker and I am determined to make it work. I've removed Play for Set Pieces  as I do not have players with the required delivery ability. I will reinstate it if I can recruit accordingly.

PI's:

- LWB, More Direct Passes, Sit Narrower. (Want him to be looking to get it to the RPM as fast as possible or look long to the AF.

- RCB, Dribble More.

- DM, More direct Passes, Take More Risks.

- LCM, Dribble More, Pass it Shorter.

- RCM, Stay Wider, Hold Position

- LS and CAM, Mark Tighter.

- RS, Pass it Shorter.

NB: My roaming Playmaker has traits: Gets forwards Whenever Possible and Runs Through Centre (deliberately trained) and is a real gem:

One question: For security I have placed Hold Position on the RCM. However, I am considering the benefit of letting him loose as there will be the DM to cover. Arrgh. Not sure. Thoughts?

I'd avoid the holding position for the CM two. 1 DM holding should be plenty, as long as the two in front aren't totally flair players/roles.

You'll need the CMs moving for transitions of play. CAR is probably still a better fit for that position than the BWM. You can play a player w/ those BWM attributes to get the more defensively responsible player you're looking for. On RPM, they're a bit weird. Ball hogs a bit, and a MEZ(s) probably just works better in the current setup. If you want to make one work, I'd recommend using one in a double pivot alongside a holding role. He'll drop back to pick the ball up from the defenders anyways. It's probably a better role for a more offensive system where his movement can be maximized but I haven't played around with it too much in my own saves. Might want the left WB to go on attack as well if the left handed CM isn't hitting that space. 

I would recommend going for a Positive fluid counter with this setup, rather than a direct approach as you'll be bypassing your area of strength in midfield.

You could also try a flat midfield 3 in the DM strata to get a better setup for the RPM to shine. That can be quite an effective platform for a direct counterattack as well. 

On the last player profile, what role are you playing him in? if he's your BWM(s) I'd be careful with all those traits you've loaded onto him. If he's the RPM, you might need to find a different one to play the role. Great mobility on him but his lack of ability on the ball (Composure/passing stick out here in particular) make him more of a supporting player rather than one I'd build the tactic around. 

Just some suggestions  I  really don't use the 4-4-2 diamond often so take it all with a grain of salt. 

 

Edit: You could try putting a RGA in the DM role if you wanted to try out a fancier role (and not the RPM). He'll have two hard workers in front of him and can pick out a pass to the on rushing wingbacks or frontline. Your team looks like it's super strong now, so I think you could pull that off just fine. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Cloud9

[toshimitzou1]

16 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You could also try a flat midfield 3 in the DM strata to get a better setup for the RPM to shine. That can be quite an effective platform for a direct counterattack as well

Ah, now this has peaked my interest.

Got to be honest. Loaded up a pilot save with the 41212 narrow I'd set up and I was disappointed. The RPM was effective but the overall counter- attacking intention was stymied due to the 'magnet' nature you specified.

However, with the RPM in a flat DM 3 this could prove effective. Before I cobble something together for testing, would you deem the RPM off centre or central in the DM 3?

NB: The defensive mentality is a shoe- in and won't be changed. It's the main reason I am enjoying this playthrough. Direct courter attack or go home!

[toshimitzou1]

@Cloud9

Got eager and thought of this. Don't worry about personnel, I can recruit if needed.

 

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, toshimitzou1 said:

Ah, now this has peaked my interest.

Got to be honest. Loaded up a pilot save with the 41212 narrow I'd set up and I was disappointed. The RPM was effective but the overall counter- attacking intention was stymied due to the 'magnet' nature you specified.

However, with the RPM in a flat DM 3 this could prove effective. Before I cobble something together for testing, would you deem the RPM off centre or central in the DM 3?

NB: The defensive mentality is a shoe- in and won't be changed. It's the main reason I am enjoying this playthrough. Direct courter attack or go home!

Good question, I'm not sure actually. They changed the way the midfield banks will deploy on FM23 so the double pivots in midfield drop back and the DM pivots push up a little. On Fm22 they will operate a little more statically I think which could be an issue for you. 

From a defensive viewpoint a holding midfielder in the middle and the RPM on the outside probably makes the most sense. 

[jc577]

On 28/06/2023 at 20:44, Cloud9 said:

Hope some of that is useful to you

Wow, such awesome advice man! Hugely appreciate you taking the time out and producing something so in-depth. I haven't been able to get on since but got some time this week  Will put something together and let you know how it goes!

[Aoyao]

[mikcheck]

It's been an exciting start of the season for my Groningen team in FM21 with a flat 442. I've never had a running like this since I've joined the club.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Johnny Ace]

Quite a run there @mikcheck, keeping it nice and simple and getting the job done  

[toshimitzou1]

Not going to lie. I've been testing 41212 Narrow all week and it is awful for Direct Counter-Attack. The lack of width makes the counter very one dimensional. As @Cloud9 said, it's far more suited to a fluid counter attack.

However, as a result of a week of testing, I have decided to go with a 442 DM set up. I've tested it last night and will run it for a season and see what transpires.

I'm going to maintain the Defensive mentality but offer up two variants. Our reputation is much higher now so for the most part it will be counter attacking on the front foot with higher lines. Of course, in big matches against similar or better teams, the pragmatic mid-block will take precedence. 

As @Cloud9 specified, I am constantly ensuring my players are high in concentration and aggression.

I'll report back.

[toshimitzou1]

On 03/07/2023 at 18:59, Cloud9 said:

Good question, I'm not sure actually. They changed the way the midfield banks will deploy on FM23 so the double pivots in midfield drop back and the DM pivots push up a little. On Fm22 they will operate a little more statically I think which could be an issue for you. 

From a defensive viewpoint a holding midfielder in the middle and the RPM on the outside probably makes the most sense. 

Yeah, the 41212-Narrow was an epic **** show. No point having four central players if you're bypassing them with your tactical approach!

[Counter9]

Need help with this tactic.. The results are fine but I need some advice.

Regroup : Should I use this or not? I don't want to use Counter Press as I use mid block and want the opposing team to come to my side then win the ball and counter. Should I use Regroup or not?

The second thing is how high should be my defensive line? High, Standard or Low for this style of play. 

Here is the tactic I am using,

[toshimitzou1]

1 hour ago, Counter9 said:

Need help with this tactic.. The results are fine but I need some advice.

Regroup : Should I use this or not? I don't want to use Counter Press as I use mid block and want the opposing team to come to my side then win the ball and counter. Should I use Regroup or not?

The second thing is how high should be my defensive line? High, Standard or Low for this style of play. 

Here is the tactic I am using,

If the results are fine what is the problem?

RE: Regroup: You have a few players 'roaming from position (both CWB's, and CF)' and you have a very bottom heavy formation. For me , the 'regroup' instruction will just distract your players from affecting your tactic as they could be regrouping from quite alien positions. Plus you have many bodies back, regroup feels like overkill.

Defensive line: Either your player or opponent dependent. 

Question: How are the CWB's? I've not chosen them in 5atb before as I am concerned that 'roams from position' on the only wide outlets could be detrimental.

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, Counter9 said:

Need help with this tactic.. The results are fine but I need some advice.

Regroup : Should I use this or not? I don't want to use Counter Press as I use mid block and want the opposing team to come to my side then win the ball and counter. Should I use Regroup or not?

The second thing is how high should be my defensive line? High, Standard or Low for this style of play. 

Here is the tactic I am using,

I avoid regroup because it invites more pressure, leaving it blank is a good option. Once you've won the ball back, you want players in position to counter and w/ regroup that isn't always the case (it also affects your striker who you want putting pressure on their backline). You could experiment with it in your system and see if it helps to balance out some of the roles you've picked, but personally I'd avoid it in a counter attack system.

• Narrowing the width is a good alternative if you're looking to be more defensively compact.

On defensive lines:

• Standard is usually a good starting point. A low line again invites pressure and a high line can do cool things w/pressing, but you need quick high quality CBs.
• The CWB look key to your tactic working or not, so I would recommend a high line if you've got the players to pull it off. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

Just for reference since a couple people have been interested in the box 5 at the back tactic. Here is the basic setup for how I like to set up with in the 3-4-2-1 setup. 

• I adjust width, wingback(s/a), backline based on opposition. Fairly narrow (shorter vs normal) are where I like to hangout w/ this setup.
  • Width changes are largely between fairly narrow (shorter vs normal) as well. Fairly wide is useful against a couple setups, but will neutralize the pressing box so be careful. 
• You can go double WB(s) and be fine. WB(a) is tiring for the wingback so just use it when you can.
• Both wingbacks have mark tighter + show inside to funnel into the pressing trap of the box 4.
• Counter press, get stuck in (in moderation), hit crosses early in sections of the match (watch momentum). 
  • I also turn the Trigger Press up to "slightly more often" fairly liberally. 
  • Special mention for time wasting (frequently), it cuts your counter attack a bit but can help you break up the match if things are going against you or you're trying to see out a match.
  • You can focus play through the middle via the box, esp if you've got a heavy numerical advantage there. 
  • Don't be afraid to push your lines up against a team where you can dominate the midfield/cut off transitions. 
• AMC support, DM support have pressing meters increased. 
  • Attributes on the box midfield is especially important, outlined above. 
  • I'm not a huge fan of the SS with this setup. Great work off the ball, but they try to be a goal scorer from deep which leaves them caught in the middle of a counter. AMC can score bangers from a distance and play in the roles around them.
• You can play this with 2 DM (s) as well. DLP(s) and BWM(d) are a trustworthy combo in a pinch, and can be a good fallback point if form goes out the window. 
• Passing meter changes w/no playmaker are key + take more risks. This is pivotal for the tactic to work.  Get some playmaking traits on talented players as well. No ball magnet + the passing meters creates a very quick/dynamic counter.
  • Passing "Slightly more direct" vs "More direct" based on opponent quality. I prefer "slightly more direct" with the box midfield but I think it's largely stylistic w/the passing meter changes.
• You can play with 2 BPD (st) and one CD(c) but it requires higher quality players imo. Dribble more on both BPD.
  • WCB can leave you a little exposed so I'd avoid them (although on support they'll get great ratings). BPD are just really great this year and perfect for the counter. W/ Dribble more they can progress the ball via carrying or a line breaking pass while being defensively sound.
• If you've got a talented keeper, go SK(s). I've had trouble with them booting the ball regardless, so play it by ear. Just a GK is fine as well.
  • I use roll it out because I prioritize a shot stopper.
• Positive mentality is a fine choice for this set up as well.
  • I prefer defensive since it allows for more in game changes/less fatigue for your squad while the opposition tires themselves out.

This setup needs players that fit the system or you're better off opting for a direct counter with a TF/AF combo up top + playmaking roles.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Cloud9