Liverpool 2017 with Mane,Salah,Firmino and Coutinho (on fm23)

[trym.jorg]

Hi! Im trying to create a 4-2-3-1 and/or 4-3-3 wich will fit the fab 4 liverpool had during 2017 before coutinho left. i have created one tactic for each formation (without personal instructions) and would like some help from you guys on this matter. (I am currently plaing on 23.0.0 bcause of a retro database)

 

[Johnny Ace]

Have you tried them out?

I think the roles in both looks pretty decent but both are way overboard on the TIs for me 

If you have problems, some of the TI's I'd remove would be:

Pass in to Space - in the 4-2-3-1 DM 8 of 11 player roles will do that anyway

Run at defense - a good amount of roles will do that

Higher Tempo - already high as it is

Overlaps - not really needed 

High lines - they're already really high on Attacking 

 

[crandom666]

Mind if I ask what retro db this is? Thanks 

[Andros]

hi @Johnny Ace

A quick question about your suggestions:

Some of those things you take away are part of the geggenpress preset - 

pass into space

higher tempo

higher defensive line

 

Now i know the op is on attacking, so you are basing your suggestions on that, and you have given reasons for all your suggestions.  but the average person might just be choosing a preset, and roles.  how would you suggest we be able to work these things out for ourselves?

 

This kind of info is valuable! Thanks for any answers!

[Johnny Ace]

Yeah @Andros the presets are great for starters but many of them are overkill as in they push things to the extreme. I can imagine many users play the same tactic for 90 minutes every game when really life managers will push things to the extreme in 10 -15 minute bursts. Klopp was well known for the gegenpress in 17/18 but Liverpool didn't play like that for every minute of every game, at times they would be frustratingly boring   

2 hours ago, Andros said:

how would you suggest we be able to work these things out for ourselves?

Experience I guess. We all play the game differently, ask 100 people for advice and you'll get 100 different answers.  Using a high mentality plus higher tempo as a strong team will see you getting loads of shots at goal, it maybe useful in some cases but playing it for 90 minutes will often lead to an "FMing", the 30 shots vs 3 shots and losing 0-1 thing. It's why I try and advise that less is more when it comes to roles and TIs because pushing things wears out the players and forces lower quality attempts at goal. 

The high D line is similar to the above. Pass into space, when you have a good amount of players being asked to do that and players will naturally pass into space when they see a good chance to do so anyway, it's not really needed and could see you turning over possession quite often   

2 hours ago, Andros said:

This kind of info is valuable! Thanks for any answers!

No problem 

[alinp]

These things are very much about personal opinion.  In general, I'd agree with @Johnny Ace in that a) I'll try and minimize the number of TI's where possible and b) you've made the 433 more aggressive by upping the ante to Attacking.

Role wise - again personal opinion, however I've always felt Salah played higher than Mane, so you could reduce Mane to IF(S) - he'll still be plenty attacking with the rest of the settings you have (possibly even more so if you remove the overlapping). 

Hendo was a pressing monster in the late Rodgers/early Klopp phase - you could easily go BWM(S) there.

Klopp has always described Fab as his lighthouse - is DLP(D) the way to go here.  Although capable of decent passing, his role was more about breaking up play and stopping the opposition in their tracks - maybe just a DM(D) would suffice.

It may be a minor error, but you have VvD as BPD in the 4231, but CD in the 433.  Personally, to have him hit those cross field balls to Mo, I'd have thought he should be a BPD in both (and perhaps not Matip?).  I would also suggest there's a Cover/Stopper option that you could explore with these two.

Final thought - I know a lot of people have Play out of Defence to stop the ball being punted upfield, but you have Shorter Passing selected which should help discourage, so is it needed, especially if you want VvD hitting those spaces behind the opposition's full back for Mo to run on to.

[alinp]

Point of order re. the team displayed in the OP. Coutinho and Fabinho never played in the same Liverpool team.

Coutinho was sold Jan 2018, Fab bought Summer 2018.

[trym.jorg]

12 hours ago, crandom666 said:

Mind if I ask what retro db this is? Thanks 

https://www.fmscout.com/a-season-2012-13-relive-history-fm23.html

[trym.jorg]

12 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Have you tried them out?

I think the roles in both looks pretty decent but both are way overboard on the TIs for me 

If you have problems, some of the TI's I'd remove would be:

Pass in to Space - in the 4-2-3-1 DM 8 of 11 player roles will do that anyway

Run at defense - a good amount of roles will do that

Higher Tempo - already high as it is

Overlaps - not really needed 

High lines - they're already really high on Attacking 

 

i will have a go, thanks!

[trym.jorg]

that is true, but i was just looking for help to recreat a tactic where the fab 4 (mane,firmino,salah and coutinho) where playing together as they had the possibility so be the greatest attacking 4-way partnership imo. fabinho, alisson and such are just there cause this is like my dream lfv 11 (without trent, bcause he is not in the retro database)

[trym.jorg]

7 hours ago, alinp said:

These things are very much about personal opinion.  In general, I'd agree with @Johnny Ace in that a) I'll try and minimize the number of TI's where possible and b) you've made the 433 more aggressive by upping the ante to Attacking.

Role wise - again personal opinion, however I've always felt Salah played higher than Mane, so you could reduce Mane to IF(S) - he'll still be plenty attacking with the rest of the settings you have (possibly even more so if you remove the overlapping). 

Hendo was a pressing monster in the late Rodgers/early Klopp phase - you could easily go BWM(S) there.

Klopp has always described Fab as his lighthouse - is DLP(D) the way to go here.  Although capable of decent passing, his role was more about breaking up play and stopping the opposition in their tracks - maybe just a DM(D) would suffice.

It may be a minor error, but you have VvD as BPD in the 4231, but CD in the 433.  Personally, to have him hit those cross field balls to Mo, I'd have thought he should be a BPD in both (and perhaps not Matip?).  I would also suggest there's a Cover/Stopper option that you could explore with these two.

Final thought - I know a lot of people have Play out of Defence to stop the ball being punted upfield, but you have Shorter Passing selected which should help discourage, so is it needed, especially if you want VvD hitting those spaces behind the opposition's full back for Mo to run on to.

thanks for your advice :-)

[trym.jorg]

i am currently testin the advice you guys offered. but im not seeing any positive results. do you guys have the power to maybe create a good tactic? @Johnny Ace @alinp @Andros

[trym.jorg]

Just now, trym.jorg said:

i am currently testin the advice you guys offered. but im not seeing any positive results. do you guys have the power to maybe create a good tactic? @Johnny Ace @alinp @Andros

what i am mainly looking for is IF so be main goals. coutinho to be creator/good 10 with goals and assist. and the same for firmino. just goals galore essentialy

[Andros]

Thanks johnny ace.

 

is coutinho a support player? any role that gets him getting the ball, dribbling a bit and taking lots of long shots would work

 

And clyne: dribbles rarely, plays short simple passes, rarely crosses.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Andros

[Cloud9]

On 29/05/2023 at 15:50, trym.jorg said:

Hi! Im trying to create a 4-2-3-1 and/or 4-3-3 wich will fit the fab 4 liverpool had during 2017 before coutinho left. i have created one tactic for each formation (without personal instructions) and would like some help from you guys on this matter. (I am currently plaing on 23.0.0 bcause of a retro database)

 

I'd consider using Firmino as a DLF, his holdup play/workrate might be better replicated there. 

Sadio Mane always worked much harder/functioned as part of the team than Sarah for the Reds, maybe Mane as a IF(s) could reflect this part of his game. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

12 hours ago, trym.jorg said:

what i am mainly looking for is IF so be main goals. coutinho to be creator/good 10 with goals and assist. and the same for firmino. just goals galore essentialy

I'd probably knock the DLP down to just a DM and would try Firmino as a DLF on Support, if I recall, he has great traits for this sort of role 

I don't think you need both Mane and Salah on Attack, Salah is "the" IF(A) in my opinion so Mane as an IW on Support would bring a better balance 

In the 4-3-3 you could knock the AP up to Attack to try and get him a bit more forward in midfield, on Support an AP acts as an 8 

Thinking about the TIs again, I'm not sure you need shorter passing, Positive already has shorter passing as the default so that's something you could experiment with 

[trym.jorg]

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'd probably knock the DLP down to just a DM and would try Firmino as a DLF on Support, if I recall, he has great traits for this sort of role 

I don't think you need both Mane and Salah on Attack, Salah is "the" IF(A) in my opinion so Mane as an IW on Support would bring a better balance 

In the 4-3-3 you could knock the AP up to Attack to try and get him a bit more forward in midfield, on Support an AP acts as an 8 

Thinking about the TIs again, I'm not sure you need shorter passing, Positive already has shorter passing as the default so that's something you could experiment with 

i have taken to your advice, aswell as trying to manage the game better,rather than playing gegenpress for 90min all matches. and it seems to be working much better. thanks alot guys. much love <3