Fundamental Football Manager - Making that basic 442

[Rashidi]

Hi rashidi, i was wondering if you could give me a hand with something, ive been looking at making a 4-2-3-1 for a while now, a lot like Liverpool in the CL, would you be able to give me a hand on this please. As i have not a clue on how to make one, been reading through every page and im just so lost haha

thanks mate

What are your current instructions and what kind of players do you have now?

[BigAir360]

What are your current instructions and what kind of players do you have now?

Well mate, ive been in and out of games like i don't know what. Ive been dibble Dabbling with the instructions but cant seem to get them right. Im about to start a game as QPR though. if that gives you an idea on my current set of players?

Ill just give it another read. Lets see how it goes.

[Uandwhosearmy]

First of all rashidi, thank you for taking the time to present your view on tactics and for answering all of the questions. This is a great thread to go to for pointers on creating a successful tactic.

Now, I'm playing as Udinese. I've just started my 3rd season with a different tactic that follows most of your advice so far. During the previous 2 seasons the best I've achieved is a UEFA cup win (very pleasing!), but so far I haven't been able to reach higher than 7th in the league. So my problem is consistency. I have found it hard dealing with the lone striker formations of most Serie A teams. The game is played differently in Italy (at least in FM08 8.02) compared to the english league which I am much more familiar with. I have a strong team but haven't been able to make the best of them yet.

I play a basic 4-4-2 with one barrowed MC into DMC, short farrows on wingers and a tall striker coupled with a deep lying playmaker/fast forward (AMC diagonally farrowed to an FC position).

Like I've said, my main issue is dealing with the varying lone striker formations the opposition throws at me (4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1) but also the 3-5-2 with three MCs and ML/MR all in the same strata. I'm pretty much always tight marking the striker, the fast AML/AMR and closing down the creative threats from midfield (all through OI). AMCs are either man marked or tight marked in OI. If the AI goes super offensive I also CD the FBs. Have I left anything out?

I know team and individual instructions play an important role as well. When away I've gone against my previous instincts of going deeper and more defensive and have instead started trying pushing up the D-line to around 12 and closing down at "own area" coupled with defensive mentalities of 4-6 for all defensive players (GK, DCs, FBs, MCd). I have reasonably quick centre halves who are dominant in the air (Fazio/Coda) so the normal/high D-line is not a problem. And even though I look much more solid defensively, I'm struggling to create dangerous chances. I'm trying to play patiently away like you've advised earlier in the thread, but I just don't look dangerous going forward.

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I'm going to wrap this up by asking a straight forward question: Do you recommend going more mixed/direct and normal D-line, attacking mentality, own half CD (defensive unit) at home? Do you recommend going for a more patient approach with a normal/high D-line, defensive/normal mentality, own area CD (defensive unit) away?

Any answer you (or anyone else) could give would be much appreciated!

[Rashidi]

@Usandwhosarmy

Firstly, thanks.

I'm still trying to understand your formation does it play with an ML MCd and MCa MR or ML MCd MR and AMC farrowed? If its the amc farrowed formation then its fairly easy cos its going to be the AMC who does all the creative work supported by the 2 MCs.

Not to sure what your formation is cos that AMC farrowed is confusing me somewhat.

The beauty about this game is that there are so many ways to play it.. for example, you can play a highpressure heavy closing down styled of football, where all the action literally happens in their half. Its risky, and its the way I know best. And then there is the more contained way of playing it where you allow the other team to bring the ball up at least to your third and then you win it back and pass the ball quickly to the front.

Personally at home I tend to play a more aggressive style of football, where I close down heavily with my attacking set of players, play with a narrow width and have a mixture of onetouch passing and direct passing. The direct passing comes from the backline and the onetouch passing is in midfield. I do also like to play with a deep lying striker as well, who is usually on higher creative freedom than the other and is given instructions to HUB and distribute, I usually don't ask the DM to do that.

In this case I would play with a narrow midfield, closing down would be different for the attacking group and the defensive group. And because I play like that my tempo is usually fast. My mentality of my players is not set too far apart, however the MCd would be on last notch of normal at least. I never ever play with one mentality for the whole team. I know there are people who swear by global. I just don't like it cos my defenders always try something stupid. So I keep my dcs on defensive/ultra and my fullbacks on last notch of normal..and then I adjust the rest.

That kind of formation plays more attacking in your face football, then there is the patient buildup where my closing down is different, and its usually in own half for most of the players, tempo is slow and the width is normal. The passing is never 1 its usually either mixed with just the fullbacks on direct and they are always told to never ttb.

Away I would play a more balanced style of play...which would be the second approach, however if I find the need to attack, i will then switch to the first approach and if I have to defend for dear life, then things like fwr and removed, arrows and taken off, tempo is reduced, closing down almost falls to own area and loads of players are on tight marking.

[Uandwhosearmy]

My formation is a 4-4-1-1, much like the one you demonstrated earlier in the thread with the striking partnership divided into a fast creative forward as an AMC farrowed to an FC position, and a tall hold-up striker up front. The MCs are divided into one creative attacking outlet (MCa) with the other being defensive and barrowed.

Your passing instructions seem appropriate for an attacking side with lots of pace in it. I've been reluctant to use direct passing on any player above defensive mentality (My DCs usually have direct or last notch mixed passing), especially on my full backs who seem to enjoy hoofing the ball up to the opposition full back with such a setting. But it sounds interesting if you have a speedy side with lots of forward runs coming from midfield. I might give it a go since I have many fast attacking mids and strikers in my squad.

FYI: Mentality-wise I have my tall striker up front on 17, the forward running AMC on 15 and the remaining attacking three (MCa, MR, ML) on 14 (highest normal), while the MCd is on 8 along with the FBs. DCs and GK are on 5. The CD settings are in my previous post. This is all in my attacking tactic by the way.

I like your general ideas on attacking and defending and I think that they are quite different to how most Serie A sides I've faced play. I won't have an edge against the opposition playing a short passing game I fear since I come face to face with many sides (Milan, Inter, Fiorentina) who are better at this than me, so a more direct style might work better.

Do you have any general recommendations against very strong sides who like a creative short-passing game?

[Rashidi]

Yeah go narrow, and make sure the wingers and amc close down heavily

[Rashidi]

I noticed that the mentality of your fullbacks and dcs are the same, have you considered telling your fullbacks to be on the first notch of normal, have one dc on 2 and the other dc on 4 perhaps even have one DC on 1 for mentality. In my 4411, my backline seems to do fairly well, they stay tight and compact and have been able to do well against good sides. When I lose to teams like Chelsea, its usually cos some player has scored a blinder or like the match I just lost cos, the ref has given an offside goal.

Let me know how your instructions come along, i've fired up fm2008 again to take a look. And am using the 4411.

I use this style of play with Gloucester who are now 5th in the premiership and are punching above their weight. Having a technically challenged side is forcing me to adopt these tactics, and that lone AMC is a very dangerous proposition.

[Uandwhosearmy]

FYI: Mentality-wise I have my tall striker up front on 17, the forward running AMC on 15 and the remaining attacking three (MCa, MR, ML) on 14 (highest normal), while the MCd is on 8 along with the FBs. DCs and GK are on 5. The CD settings are in my previous post. This is all in my attacking tactic by the way.

My full backs and DCs are on different mentalities. In my first post I described settings that I adjusted in time for the following post. My full backs are generally on 8 (second notch normal) and my DCs on 5. If I come up against farrowed AML/AMR or FL/FR I lower the mentality of my full backs to defensive and remove forward runs.

I like the idea of putting one DC at a higher mentality than his partner. I guess this is intended to cause confusion among the opposition and provide cover for the more aggressive defender? I'm not using offside trap anyway so I think I might try this for my next game. Have you noticed a significant difference when playing with CDs at different mentalities as opposed to playing them "in line" so to speak?

[Uandwhosearmy]

The new settings are doing the trick alright. I'm controlling games. The last two away games looked like home games when playing like this! I'm creating loads of fair chances, though my strikers and wingers are not converting enough. That's why I drew those two games (1-1, 2-2). I did find however that I'm still poor at protecting my lead. Both games I lead by one and two goals respectively, but failed to keep them out. Two out of those three conceded goals were from set pieces while the other one came from a through ball to an unmarked striker.

What are your thoughts on protecting leads? Do you alter D-line, mentality and/or CD much? I usually take away farrows from my FB's and reduce forward runs on one or two mids and possibly my FB's as well. I also lowered tempo a few notches.

[il_fenomeno]

Some thing I'm confused with:So the more attacking your team is,the higher D-Line and of course higher Closing Down?For example,in an attacking 442 formation,C-Down should be higher,but not very high(I prefer Closing Down to be lowered in a 442 than other formation).

For narrow formations(4132,4312,4231,4321),Closing Down should be much higher than in 442?That's the thing I'm not sure with.Cause when I look at the AI managers profile,those who preffer narrow formations have Pressing Style:Closing Down.And I think it's not a coincidence.

[fettot]

something i am getting angry at all the time is the goalkeepers waste of kicks. he always aim for an player with very weak jumping that play as attacker or winger. for example i have bianchi and saviola in my lazio team and he aims for saviola alot and forces him to looose 10-15 headers per game and then auto gives him a 6 if he doesnt score. while bianchi actually have a chance winning the duel.

anyone have managed to gett their keeper use the quick throws to their full backs or inner midfielders to build up play insteed of just give away possesion of the ball?

i have quick throw to DL as my deoult instructions

[Rashidi]

The new settings are doing the trick alright. I'm controlling games. The last two away games looked like home games when playing like this! I'm creating loads of fair chances, though my strikers and wingers are not converting enough. That's why I drew those two games (1-1, 2-2). I did find however that I'm still poor at protecting my lead. Both games I lead by one and two goals respectively, but failed to keep them out. Two out of those three conceded goals were from set pieces while the other one came from a through ball to an unmarked striker.

What are your thoughts on protecting leads? Do you alter D-line, mentality and/or CD much? I usually take away farrows from my FB's and reduce forward runs on one or two mids and possibly my FB's as well. I also lowered tempo a few notches.

Tis very important to look at the AI's formation, especially if you're playing a match you're not expected to win. Chances are it'll switch to a 424. If it does that, remove FWR from your fullbacks, and close down their MCs. If its any other formation, then slow down tempo, increase timewasting, narrow your width and if your fullbacks are always having to track back..reduce your dline

[jaycar]

I noticed that the mentality of your fullbacks and dcs are the same, have you considered telling your fullbacks to be on the first notch of normal, have one dc on 2 and the other dc on 4 perhaps even have one DC on 1 for mentality. In my 4411, my backline seems to do fairly well, they stay tight and compact and have been able to do well against good sides. When I lose to teams like Chelsea, its usually cos some player has scored a blinder or like the match I just lost cos, the ref has given an offside goal.

Let me know how your instructions come along, i've fired up fm2008 again to take a look. And am using the 4411.

I use this style of play with Gloucester who are now 5th in the premiership and are punching above their weight. Having a technically challenged side is forcing me to adopt these tactics, and that lone AMC is a very dangerous proposition.

Is there any chance of a screenshot of that 4411 please?

[Uandwhosearmy]

I'm sorry for stepping on any toes here, but I think this is the formation he is referring to. At least that's the 4-4-1-1 that rashidi posted earlier in the thread on page two.

rashidi

I am usually very careful not to miss any formation changes, and I've already adopted your approach on how to deal with super offensive formations like the 4-2-4. I've isolated my problems with conceding to set pieces mostly. I give away too many free kicks in dangerous areas so I don't use tight marking as much on opposition strikers anymore, and not at all if they lack pace. I have also started conceding from corners which has not been a problem area for me before so I need to look into my instructions in that area. Other than that I am doing fine. I've climbed up from 9th to 4th place in the league in just a few games and things are looking sunny overall!

Cheers.

[jaycar]

Yeah, I've seen that one, I was just wondering if it the one he was using now looked more conventional...I'm thrown out by the farrows on the left side only..

[Uandwhosearmy]

When I play with a similar formation the farrowing will depend on what player I have in which position. I'm guessing rashidi put those farrows on the left side because he has a good attacking full back on the left side and a more defender-type of full back on the right for instance.

Or, it could be that the team he was facing in the upcoming match had a slow right winger. With him not posing too much of a threat in terms of pace you should be able to push the full back he's facing a bit further up the field.

Those are just intuitive guesses by the way..

[jaycar]

Rash, I'm trying to get FB's to overlap at the moment, Could you take a look at these settings and suggest any changes?

FB's: 13 mentality, Often FWR, mixed RWB, no LS/TTB, Often crossball from byeline. CD is own area.

Wingers: (This is the sticky part...) 10 mentality. No FWR, mixed RWB/TTB, no crossball, from deep.

The wingers are on a lower mentality to allow for the more attacking FB's.

I'm also considering anchoring both CM's...blah...

EDIT: Btw, no arrows on either the wingers or FB's

[Rashidi]

The thing about overlapping fullbacks is that it doesn't happen unless the team is more or less in the other half. Personally I can make my fullbacks overlap without having such a low mentality for the wingers, cos this really just tells em to play it safe; so generally your team will be knocking the ball about a fair bit.

The things I've realised:

There is a stronger chance the fullbacks will overlap if you are playing a flat 3, or maybe having one of the MCs barrowed. You do not need to farrow the fullback to make him overlap, all you need to do is make sure the ML and MR have TTB on often, and RWB mixed. Mixed RWB for the Fullbacks is fine, but he will make the decision whether or not to overlap based on the choices available. The danger of having the MLs on 10 is that they won't encourage the fb to overlap unless you are in their half...so I'd be looking to play with a high defensive line..say first notch of pushed up.

You could have the fullback on RWB often; that way the ML or MC would release the fullback for a fwr and he will run with the ball down the byeline. In that case you could play with ML on 13 for mentality and RWB mixed and FWR mixed as well..that way the thrust of your attack is down the flanks.

You could change this to a 4312 and create even more interesting patterns..here you would put the FB on normal mentality last notch and FWR often/RWB often/TTB None. MCr/MCl on FWR often/TTB/Often/RWB mixed Mentality 13 and the central MC on defensive mentality and settings...the AMC will be on FWR MIXED..and attacking mentality with TTB often..this way you get overlapping play, a central player who brings the MCr/l into play and creates goals for the strikers...this is by far the best overlapping option I've seen, it literally tears defenses to shreads

[jaycar]

Thank you for such an in depth answer, some great stuff to try later *thumbs up*

[right_winger]

Quick question to rashidi regarding the first post in this thread:

Would you still set your players like this if you had much poorer team, ie. would you ask Milanese (left FB) to make FWR often or at least mixed if he was experienced but slow? His attributes for FWB are: pace 5, acc 5, decisions 13, off the ball 12, anticipation 12 (last three aren't bad as for a team promoted to serie B). Generally do you remove some settings typical for some position if the player can't manage to follow them?

Please note that I'm playing poor Serie B side with not much money for transfer/wages so replies like "get better players" aren't welcome

Cheers

PS. Check your message box

[Rashidi]

Quick question to rashidi regarding the first post in this thread:

Would you still set your players like this if you had much poorer team, ie. would you ask Milanese (left FB) to make FWR often or at least mixed if he was experienced but slow? His attributes for FWB are: pace 5, acc 5, decisions 13, off the ball 12, anticipation 12 (last three aren't bad as for a team promoted to serie B). Generally do you remove some settings typical for some position if the player can't manage to follow them?

Please note that I'm playing poor Serie B side with not much money for transfer/wages so replies like "get better players" aren't welcome

Cheers

PS. Check your message box

Actually when i have a poor side, i tend to play a more aggressive style of football, high pressure, and I usually have players who are pacey and have a high workrate. Technically I will never be able to match a team playing a normal game, so I seek to score quick goals, the games tend to be more open. So it all really depends on the players you have.

If a player has experience and can make fwr and is slow..then he would be set to normal. When this happens he will only move forward when u have possession in their half. Naturally you run a risk, it all depends on your threshold for risk. In such cases, my tactic would have several avenues to score from like i explained in my previous post. Off the ball is a good indicator of whether a player likes to run behind a dline...in this case it would suggest that he does this only when you have numerical superiority

[right_winger]

rashidi: I play 4-4-2 so will it not ruin my shape if I increase closing down and play more aggressive?

[Rashidi]

Yeah it shouldn't..if you want to play more aggressive you need to have the right players and need to keep a high defensive line.

[Beneamata]

@ RASHIDI

When I'm watching the 2D, how do I tell if the D. Line is too high or low against the opposition?

I've just recently started looking at the 2D and there's been an improvement in my play but I can't work out the D. Line

Thanks, G.

[Rashidi]

A good judge that its too high is to watch your fullbacks. If they are on normal mentality and are tracking back too far when defending then its good to say its too high.

[Beneamata]

A good judge that its too high is to watch your fullbacks. If they are on normal mentality and are tracking back too far when defending then its good to say its too high.

Maybe I'm missing something Rashidi, but I just don't see what you're meaning when I watch it. With the full backs on normal mentality I'm not seeing them tracking back too far, even when I have the line set as high as possible. Have I got something all wrong here mate?

[Rashidi]

If you have a dline that's too high, you will typically see your defenders having to track back because you have "over the top" balls. look at where your players are vis a vis the halfway line and when players start to make things happen. If the dline is set very high and closing down is high your tackles start happening in the opponents third. If your dline is very high, you will also see balls over the top and your fullbacks trakcing back

[Beneamata]

If you have a dline that's too high, you will typically see your defenders having to track back because you have "over the top" balls. look at where your players are vis a vis the halfway line and when players start to make things happen. If the dline is set very high and closing down is high your tackles start happening in the opponents third. If your dline is very high, you will also see balls over the top and your fullbacks trakcing back

OK, thank you, Rashidi. I have a better understanding now of the def line, via an old thread, than I did when posting this. So between the two I'll know what to watch for now, AND how to adjust properly. Thanks again.