Tempo: individual or team instruction? Reflections on Tiki Taka.

[apertotes]

I've read many posts here at the forums and most seem to accept that tempo is how fast players make decisions. But, the game considers the Tiki Taka strategy as "low tempo". That can't be right. Both Barcelona and Spain used this tactic with players moving all the time and passing the ball almost instantly. So much so that even trying to stop them with faults was very difficult since players had the ball for a very short time and once they passed it they immediately changed position.

Tiki Taka can be described as very fast individual tempo combined with very low collective tempo (this tempo defined as how urgently the team tries to get into scoring opportunities). I do not see how the game's implementation of Tiki Taka (control mentality and low tempo) can replicate that. And, indeed, it does not. Using vanilla Tiki Taka strategy makes your players dwell on the ball constantly and take a very long time to even turn around. And it is very easily countered by a high pressing opponent that capitalizes on that individual low tempo.

Having said that, is there any way to really replicate Tiki Taka in Football Manager Mobile? I believe that fast tempo is required, but, how do you instruct your team to not rush towards the goal? Short passing? I wish we had a "Directness" slider, because all we can choose is "Short", "Direct", "Long" or "Mixed", but those aren't comparable or incompatible. You can be direct with short passes. And you can also not be direct with short passes. But the game does not allow us to be precise.

So, Fast tempo, probably short passing and, maybe, control mentality? Also, how do you tell you players that you want them moving all the time and even get out of their designed position? With an "Expressive" setting on creative freedom?

BTW, I believe that Tiki Taka is only the attacking phase of the game. Barcelona used Tiki Taka with high pressing, but Spain did not. On defense they used a more conventional zonal positioning defense.

Anyway, good night to everybody!

[Marc Vaughan]

the 'rush towards goal' mentality is set by err your team mentality, if you set the team as 'attacking' they'll get forward fairly quickly, if you play counter attack then they'll be a lot more patient and attempt to suck the opposition players forward etc.

Tempo determines the preferred speed that the ball is played around with, not all tiki-taka teams play a fast tempo imho, quite often they'll pass the opposition to death until they pull players out of position and get their opening (although I agree quite a few teams do have a high tempo doing this - I don't think its compulsory). 

Definitely short-passing, I'd also suggest short goalkeeper distribution these days to allow building from the back.

Your milage may vary depending on your players and actual tactics etc.

[apertotes]

But being defensive does not mean not being direct. When Barcelona used Tiki Taka they had a very attacking mentality, almost overload. Yet they did not rush to the goal. Defensive/Attacking mentality and Directness are not the same thing.

I do not recall any team using Tiki Taka with low player tempo. I'd say it is not possible because if players hold the ball for a long time, if the ball is not moved very fast, defence can adjust and cover the gaps that Tiki Taka is supposed to provoke.

[Marc Vaughan]

16 hours ago, apertotes said:

But being defensive does not mean not being direct. When Barcelona used Tiki Taka they had a very attacking mentality, almost overload. Yet they did not rush to the goal. Defensive/Attacking mentality and Directness are not the same thing.

The way the match engine is implemented 'defensive' means very cautious going forward, attacking means go forward quickly and take more risks of losing the ball.

I'm trying to explain how things operate so you can implement the style you prefer, it is entirely up to you whether you take this advice.

[apertotes]

8 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

The way the match engine is implemented 'defensive' means very cautious going forward, attacking means go forward quickly and take more risks of losing the ball.

I'm trying to explain how things operate so you can implement the style you prefer, it is entirely up to you whether you take this advice.

OK, thank you. It feels wrong that in order to replicate Barcelona style, we need to select a defensive mentality. And I think that it is not well explained in the game and the terminology used is confusing.

[Marc Vaughan]

37 minutes ago, apertotes said:

OK, thank you. It feels wrong that in order to replicate Barcelona style, we need to select a defensive mentality. And I think that it is not well explained in the game and the terminology used is confusing.

Yeah you might have a point about that - although tbh its been that way for over a decade now ... perhaps changing it to urgency or something similar? - cautious, expansive/aggressive?

[apertotes]

I really think the best way would be to split it in two different sliders: one for attacking-defensive mentality and another one for directness. Doesn't the big brother PC game have something similar?

Also, I would remove "Direct" from the passing options and just set a slider to control passing length, since, I believe that directness and passing length are not related at all.

That way, we could create a strategy with attacking mentality, very low directness, short passing and high tempo and hopefully recreate the style of Barcelona or Spain, along with many other strategies that now are really difficult to simulate because of the way mentality and directness are partnered.

I may be pushing it, but having individual instructions to ask some players to do their own thing regardless of team instructions would be fantastic. Things like dribble more, shoot when you have the chance, etc. I know roles do that somehow, but they feel a bit limiting. Or maybe it is again a matter of documentation and really being able to learn how each role affects a certain position. But still, sometimes a player is perfect for a role except for one stupid attribute that he never bothered to train. Being able to ask him not to cross, dribble, make forward runs, etc. would be great.