Keep a player transfer listed when you can't sell him?

[danej]

How to handle this dilemma? I would think that you could go to two extremes or somewhere in the middle:

1. Keep the players transfer listed and keep him on "surplus to requirements" squad status. The aim being to maximize the chance of a bid coming in at some point.

You can of course also do all sorts of things to p*ss the player off in order to make him accept more potential offers, want out at any price. But for me subjectively that is not an option, feels like gaming the system, borderline cheating, manipulating the player to leave.

 

2. Take the player off the transfer list and raise his squad back somewhere above "surplus to requirements" at the moment that it becomes clear that you probably aren't going to get an offer for him in the foreseeable future. In other words, at the moment when you have tried anything you are willing to try to get rid of the player, have lowered the asking price to your minimum, raised the proposed wage contribution to you maximum, lowered a potential proposed loan deal to the minimum wage contribution percentage that you are willing to accept etc., and nothing happens, no bids, not interest, nothing. With this mindset, you immediately take the player off the transfer list, You try again on Deadline Day and if still no bids wait untill the next transfer window opens. The aim being to minimize the potential negative impact the transfer listed player could have on squad morale, dressing room athmosphere etc.

 

Or as mentioned, could be somewhere in between these to extremes, another variant.

 

What do you think is the best, and why?

 

Personally I err towards option 2. But I am not sure that it is necessary. I don't really know what is objectively the best trade off between the two aims - maximizing the chance of getting rid of the player quickly (option 1) vs. maximizing the chance of building or maintaining a good squad morale / dressing room athmosphere (option 2).

 

I would prefer option 1 if possible. But the question is whether that style has too many negative implications regarding squad morale.

[Cloud9]

30 minutes ago, danej said:

How to handle this dilemma? I would think that you could go to two extremes or somewhere in the middle:

1. Keep the players transfer listed and keep him on "surplus to requirements" squad status. The aim being to maximize the chance of a bid coming in at some point.

You can of course also do all sorts of things to p*ss the player off in order to make him accept more potential offers, want out at any price. But for me subjectively that is not an option, feels like gaming the system, borderline cheating, manipulating the player to leave.

 

2. Take the player off the transfer list and raise his squad back somewhere above "surplus to requirements" at the moment that it becomes clear that you probably aren't going to get an offer for him in the foreseeable future. In other words, at the moment when you have tried anything you are willing to try to get rid of the player, have lowered the asking price to your minimum, raised the proposed wage contribution to you maximum, lowered a potential proposed loan deal to the minimum wage contribution percentage that you are willing to accept etc., and nothing happens, no bids, not interest, nothing. With this mindset, you immediately take the player off the transfer list, You try again on Deadline Day and if still no bids wait untill the next transfer window opens. The aim being to minimize the potential negative impact the transfer listed player could have on squad morale, dressing room athmosphere etc.

 

Or as mentioned, could be somewhere in between these to extremes, another variant.

 

What do you think is the best, and why?

 

Personally I err towards option 2. But I am not sure that it is necessary. I don't really know what is objectively the best trade off between the two aims - maximizing the chance of getting rid of the player quickly (option 1) vs. maximizing the chance of building or maintaining a good squad morale / dressing room athmosphere (option 2).

 

I would prefer option 1 if possible. But the question is whether that style has too many negative implications regarding squad morale.

I wouldn't view it as cheating, a fallout happens all the time when a club is trying to move a player on IRL. It's also not exploitative in nature, ie. angering the player doesn't mean he will leave the club. It's just a different approach that can, or cannot, work. 

Specifically offer him out and list as surplus, when there's no offers, select "persuade to join another club." If he agrees clubs will be more likely to bid. If there's no market for a player, off him out a locked price. This will indicate to clubs that you're willing to sell for a cut price, which they will assume isn't the case otherwise. I would start trying to sell immediately when the summer starts, when clubs have cash. There's luck involved based on who is looking for a player. You can try throughout the window and most of the time you can get a deal done. On squad morale, if he's an influential player I'd worry about it. You can always sit him in the u21s so he doesn't impact the first team. 

If there's no interest in a player it's difficult to sell. When trying to push a player out, you'll need to accept that he's going to be unsettled most of the time. It's a decision to take before trying to force him out. 

[danej]

Interesting. So, for example, if you offer out a player for zero locked, it is more likely to get a bid that if you offer out for the same price (zero) unlocked?

13 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I wouldn't view it as cheating, a fallout happens all the time when a club is trying to move a player on IRL. It's also not exploitative in nature, ie. angering the player doesn't mean he will leave the club. It's just a different approach that can, or cannot, work. 

Specifically offer him out and list as surplus, when there's no offers, select "persuade to join another club." If he agrees clubs will be more likely to bid. If there's no market for a player, off him out a locked price. This will indicate to clubs that you're willing to sell for a cut price, which they will assume isn't the case otherwise. I would start trying to sell immediately when the summer starts, when clubs have cash. There's luck involved based on who is looking for a player. You can try throughout the window and most of the time you can get a deal done. On squad morale, if he's an influential player I'd worry about it. You can always sit him in the u21s so he doesn't impact the first team. 

If there's no interest in a player it's difficult to sell. When trying to push a player out, you'll need to accept that he's going to be unsettled most of the time. It's a decision to take before trying to force him out. 

Interesting. So, for example, if you offer out a player for zero locked, it is more likely to get a bid that if you offer out for the same price (zero) unlocked?

 

This also makes me wonder - perhaps the best thing is to do all you can to push anybody out whom you want to get rid of, no matter which sort of player? It all depends on the chance of actually a decent/useful bid coming in.

 

Example that comes to mind: Casemiro at the start of a Man Utd save. He is one of many whom I would like to get rid of. Not a clear cut case, but to me he is slightly too old old and not superior enough to justify his 300k p/w wage. Without pushing him out, from experience I certainly won't receive any bids. He is more than good enough to be a regular starter, so it would be a shame to have to stick him long term in the U21's in case he is severely disgruntled and I don't get any decent bids in for him no matter how hard I try to push him out. What to do. Such cases can be a dilemma, at least to a semi-inexperienced player like me. Most cases are much more clear cut, but not this kind.

Edited August 10, 2023 by danej

[Cloud9]

44 minutes ago, danej said:

Interesting. So, for example, if you offer out a player for zero locked, it is more likely to get a bid that if you offer out for the same price (zero) unlocked?

Interesting. So, for example, if you offer out a player for zero locked, it is more likely to get a bid that if you offer out for the same price (zero) unlocked?

 

This also makes me wonder - perhaps the best thing is to do all you can to push anybody out whom you want to get rid of, no matter which sort of player? It all depends on the chance of actually a decent/useful bid coming in.

 

Example that comes to mind: Casemiro at the start of a Man Utd save. He is one of many whom I would like to get rid of. Not a clear cut case, but to me he is slightly too old old and not superior enough to justify his 300k p/w wage. Without pushing him out, from experience I certainly won't receive any bids. He is more than good enough to be a regular starter, so it would be a shame to have to stick him long term in the U21's in case he is severely disgruntled and I don't get any decent bids in for him no matter how hard I try to push him out. What to do. Such cases can be a dilemma, at least to a semi-inexperienced player like me. Most cases are much more clear cut, but not this kind.

Please don't sell Casemiro. He's probably the best DM destroyer in the world and on a FM level his attribute distribution is almost impossible to find (particularly with that high of strength). Strength, aggression, bravery, and tackling are all fairly difficult to improve significantly and you've got a player with all those traits on top of everything else. You have a gem, a player to build around. 

• Just because he's 30 doesn't mean you can't sell him when he's 32-33 for a huge amount of cash still (unlike IRL). Win trophies with him and you'll have no shortage of offers. He's just signed with you so moving him on now will be almost impossible. 
• Players start aging once they hit 30 in game, but that depends on their natural fitness. It's a gradual decline w/15 natural fitness. He's got 2-3 seasons before you might need to look elsewhere. 
• He's got great personality traits (and leadership) as well, you'll need senior pros in the squad to properly blood the youngsters in.

Yea but don't do a 0 offer. Just severely undercut their market value you and you'll get offers. 

• The two main factors you can influence in a transfer are player interest  (set to surplus and convince to leave signals interest to buyers) and a transfer fee within the buying clubs capability  (locking the transfer fee indicates this for the buyer). 
• Anyone who is on over 200k a week is going to be very difficult to move regardless. There's a very small group of clubs that could potentially float those wages. 

I would say the best thing you can do is to create a team that can win now. If someone is good enough, don't force them out. Winning and actually being successful will drive up the interest and market price of players in your squad. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Cloud9

[danej]

6 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I wouldn't view it as cheating, a fallout happens all the time when a club is trying to move a player on IRL. It's also not exploitative in nature, ie. angering the player doesn't mean he will leave the club. It's just a different approach that can, or cannot, work. 

Specifically offer him out and list as surplus, when there's no offers, select "persuade to join another club." If he agrees clubs will be more likely to bid. If there's no market for a player, off him out a locked price. This will indicate to clubs that you're willing to sell for a cut price, which they will assume isn't the case otherwise. I would start trying to sell immediately when the summer starts, when clubs have cash. There's luck involved based on who is looking for a player. You can try throughout the window and most of the time you can get a deal done. On squad morale, if he's an influential player I'd worry about it. You can always sit him in the u21s so he doesn't impact the first team. 

If there's no interest in a player it's difficult to sell. When trying to push a player out, you'll need to accept that he's going to be unsettled most of the time. It's a decision to take before trying to force him out. 

So when would you give up selling a player in the current transfer window? When would you take him off the transfer list in order to reduce negative impact on morale? Would you always keep an unwanted player transfer listed untill the window is closed no matter what, no matter whether no interest after all usual actions have been tried?

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, danej said:

So when would you give up selling a player in the current transfer window? When would you take him off the transfer list in order to reduce negative impact on morale? Would you always keep an unwanted player transfer listed untill the window is closed no matter what, no matter whether no interest after all usual actions have been tried?

I would actively try to sell him until the window closes. If you're unable to move him on, finding a loan on deadline day or sticking him w/ the u21s will prevent him from impacting the team in the season itself. Just because you were trying to sell him doesn't mean he'll be a problem, so it depends on the situation. If he's in the u21s I would continue to try to sell him within the season.

Usually once the decision to axe a player has been made, I stick with it until I find a deal. 

[danej]

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would actively try to sell him until the window closes. If you're unable to move him on, finding a loan on deadline day or sticking him w/ the u21s will prevent him from impacting the team in the season itself. Just because you were trying to sell him doesn't mean he'll be a problem, so it depends on the situation. If he's in the u21s I would continue to try to sell him within the season.

Usually once the decision to axe a player has been made, I stick with it until I find a deal. 

This makes me think of the other aspect once again - for which type of players will you only "half heartedly" try to sell them (or perhaps not at all, even though in some ways it might be tempting to try and sell the player)? Are there any type of players where you might not push it as hard to try and get rid of them?

 

Like the already discussed case of Casemiro. I see you point regarding him. He is very valuable to the team, and besides it might be much more difficult selling a player who just arrived at the club. Even 6 months after arrival it is often still a bit more difficult to sell the player I feel. Easier once he has been at the club for a year or longer.

 

Anyway, I am also thinking of Man Utd players like Raphael Varane, Luke Shaw, Fred, Wan-Bissaka, Athony Martial, Jadon Sancho and Harry Maguire. Players that I would for various prefer to sell if possible to obtain decent bids (often because of high wages relative to ability, or injury proneness. Age also a factor).

 

The mentioned players are often difficult to sell, at least in the first window. I would think that it might be best to not push too hard in such cases, at least regarding some of them. In other words - perhaps it is like, the more the player could contribute to your team, the more careful should you be in his case. Yes, try to sell him, but more gently, don't p*ss him off, at least only slightly. So that in case no decent deal can be struck (because ot no bids of the player rejects the club), the morale of the player is still decent or can soon be brought back to a decent level, so that you can use him on the field, at least untill the next transfer window when once again attempts will be made to sell him.

 

Any thoughts of this dilemma? Feels like a complex issue, each player is different, different trade off for different types of player and how useful they are to you. Often quite difficult to decide what is a good balance for a given player regarding this, try to push out and force the player to accept decent bids vs. keep him semi-happy in case he doesn't leave.

 

Edit: Perhaps one of my weaknesses is that I might sometimes have to low a threshold for when to try to axe a player, and/or how hard I try to push him out. I certainly many times have found myself in the situation where I have pushed a player hard, p*ssed him off, I still couldn't get rid of him, at least not for a fee that I would accept and where the player would accept to go. And then I am stuck with a moaning player who could have been useful but isn't because of his (understandable) moaning, and he drains my wage budget without much benefit.

On the other hand it would be a shame to generally be too soft because of being afraid of being stuck with unhappy players who turned out to be impossible to sell. Difficult dilemma.

Edited August 10, 2023 by danej

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, danej said:

This makes me think of the other aspect once again - for which type of players will you only "half heartedly" try to sell them (or perhaps not at all, even though in some ways it might be tempting to try and sell the player)? Are there any type of players where you might not push it as hard to try and get rid of them?

 

Like the already discussed case of Casemiro. I see you point regarding him. He is very valuable to the team, and besides it might be much more difficult selling a player who just arrived at the club. Even 6 months after arrival it is often still a bit more difficult to sell the player I feel. Easier once he has been at the club for a year or longer.

 

Anyway, I am also thinking of Man Utd players like Raphael Varane, Luke Shaw, Fred, Wan-Bissaka, Athony Martial, Jadon Sancho and Harry Maguire. Players that I would for various prefer to sell if possible to obtain decent bids (often because of high wages relative to ability, or injury proneness. Age also a factor).

 

The mentioned players are often difficult to sell, at least in the first window. I would think that it might be best to not push too hard in such cases, at least regarding some of them. In other words - perhaps it is like, the more the player could contribute to your team, the more careful should you be in his case. Yes, try to sell him, but more gently, don't p*ss him off, at least only slightly. So that in case no decent deal can be struck (because ot no bids of the player rejects the club), the morale of the player is still decent or can soon be brought back to a decent level, so that you can use him on the field, at least untill the next transfer window when once again attempts will be made to sell him.

 

Any thoughts of this dilemma? Feels like a complex issue, each player is different, different trade off for different types of player and how useful they are to you. Often quite difficult to decide what is a good balance for a given player regarding this, try to push out and force the player to accept decent bids vs. keep him semi-happy in case he doesn't leave.

 

Edit: Perhaps one of my weaknesses is that I might sometimes have to low a threshold for when to try to axe a player, and/or how hard I try to push him out. I certainly many times have found myself in the situation where I have pushed a player hard, p*ssed him off, I still couldn't get rid of him, at least not for a fee that I would accept and where the player would accept to go. And then I am stuck with a moaning player who could have been useful but isn't because of his (understandable) moaning, and he drains my wage budget without much benefit.

On the other hand it would be a shame to generally be too soft because of being afraid of being stuck with unhappy players who turned out to be impossible to sell. Difficult dilemma.

Your situation is complicated by being Man United, w/wages + desire to leave. 

In general I would say build your tactical system and bin the players who don't fit. For example, if you're playing a highline you don't want Maguire anywhere near your team. 

• Squad players are important, so someone like Wan Bisaka could be quite useful as a sub to see out a game or shut down a particular player. Fred looks quite useful for doing a job as well. Not everyone in your squad needs to be a starter. Shaw/Varane are big wages but quite good players, and probably starters anyways.
• You're probably stuck with Sancho/Martial w/their wages/ability.
• Good personalities are worth keeping around.

Again, just really focus on building the strongest squad you can, win things and try to make opportunistic sales when there's interest. Attempting to sell after your first season in charge is a good way to keep transfer fees up. You can test the waters by offering out a player without totally pissing him off most of the time. 

• Sounds like you might enjoy a longer term save where you can shape your team a bit more than as a giant like Man United? Bringing a squad up from the Championship could be a good starting place  

Edited August 10, 2023 by Cloud9

[vrig]

Personally, I don't really bother actively trying to sell anybody in the first season, because you'll get more money for them later if you can get a bit of form out of them first. And with United starting in the Europa league, it's quite easy to get high average ratings from your fringe players.

[danej]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Your situation is complicated by being Man United, w/wages + desire to leave. 

In general I would say build your tactical system and bin the players who don't fit. For example, if you're playing a highline you don't want Maguire anywhere near your team. 

• Squad players are important, so someone like Wan Bisaka could be quite useful as a sub to see out a game or shut down a particular player. Fred looks quite useful for doing a job as well. Not everyone in your squad needs to be a starter. Shaw/Varane are big wages but quite good players, and probably starters anyways.
• You're probably stuck with Sancho/Martial w/their wages/ability.
• Good personalities are worth keeping around.

Again, just really focus on building the strongest squad you can, win things and try to make opportunistic sales when there's interest. Attempting to sell after your first season in charge is a good way to keep transfer fees up. You can test the waters by offering out a player without totally pissing him off most of the time. 

• Sounds like you might enjoy a longer term save where you can shape your team a bit more than as a giant like Man United? Bringing a squad up from the Championship could be a good starting place  

Thanks a lot, great ideas.

Yeah I play with different teams. Have earlier played a lot with Sunderland and Danish side Aalborg BK. But right now I enjoy Man Utd for some reason.

 

In any case, what I probably like the most about the game is experimenting with different ways of playing it, regardless which team I manage. I love learning about the game, like getting inspiration from your great feedback.

Edited August 11, 2023 by danej

[danej]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Your situation is complicated by being Man United, w/wages + desire to leave. 

In general I would say build your tactical system and bin the players who don't fit. For example, if you're playing a highline you don't want Maguire anywhere near your team. 

• Squad players are important, so someone like Wan Bisaka could be quite useful as a sub to see out a game or shut down a particular player. Fred looks quite useful for doing a job as well. Not everyone in your squad needs to be a starter. Shaw/Varane are big wages but quite good players, and probably starters anyways.
• You're probably stuck with Sancho/Martial w/their wages/ability.
• Good personalities are worth keeping around.

Again, just really focus on building the strongest squad you can, win things and try to make opportunistic sales when there's interest. Attempting to sell after your first season in charge is a good way to keep transfer fees up. You can test the waters by offering out a player without totally pissing him off most of the time. 

• Sounds like you might enjoy a longer term save where you can shape your team a bit more than as a giant like Man United? Bringing a squad up from the Championship could be a good starting place  

Btw another aspect is: Often it is easy to bring a better (long term), younger, cheaper player on lower wages. Goes for many of the discussed Man Utd players. So why not do it, if possible to ship out some of them.

[danej]

On 11/08/2023 at 00:05, Cloud9 said:

Your situation is complicated by being Man United, w/wages + desire to leave. 

In general I would say build your tactical system and bin the players who don't fit. For example, if you're playing a highline you don't want Maguire anywhere near your team. 

• Squad players are important, so someone like Wan Bisaka could be quite useful as a sub to see out a game or shut down a particular player. Fred looks quite useful for doing a job as well. Not everyone in your squad needs to be a starter. Shaw/Varane are big wages but quite good players, and probably starters anyways.
• You're probably stuck with Sancho/Martial w/their wages/ability.
• Good personalities are worth keeping around.

Again, just really focus on building the strongest squad you can, win things and try to make opportunistic sales when there's interest. Attempting to sell after your first season in charge is a good way to keep transfer fees up. You can test the waters by offering out a player without totally pissing him off most of the time. 

• Sounds like you might enjoy a longer term save where you can shape your team a bit more than as a giant like Man United? Bringing a squad up from the Championship could be a good starting place  

I see now more than ever that these thoughts are pure wisdom. I might start over with the Man Utd save and follow these principles to a larger extent. Specifically, I feel like it might have been a mistake to sell Varane and Shaw. Performances haven't been the best in the first few league matches, and their absence might be part of why. Yes, they are injury prone which is far from from ideal -

But that brings me to one of your other points. When to sell? In many cases perhaps better to wait untill the Summer of 2023?

Are teams in general rather strapped for cash untill the 2023 summer window? I would suspect so. Pretty much all teams I have managed myself have a rather poor transfer budget for the 22/23 season, much worse than what they will get for the 23/24. Which makes sense since they have done a lot of transfer business in the summer of 2022 when the game starts. Logically, teams shouldn't have much cash left for season 1.

In other words - I wonder whether it is likely that I can get much higher offers for my players if I wait untill the summer of 2023 before even considering to sell for rather low bids? Regards players like Varane, Luke Shaw, Fred, Wan-Bissaka, McTominay, Martial and Sancho. Players whom I would like to sell, but where, in most cases I probably shouldn't be desperate to sell them at any price. Because they can do a job, and I should perhaps be patient.

Speaking of which - generally speaking, what is a good price for a player, as a rule of thumb? I get the impression that around half of his market value might be a bit on the low side. Often at least during season 1, it is difficult to get higher bids than that.

In other words, what is a decent fee for:

- A regular starter / squad player whom you would like to get rid of for various reasons

- Deadwood

I would imagine that pretty much any price is fine for deadwood. At least if you can't loan him out with most wages covered either.

But as mentioned, it might be different with people who could do a job. I suspect that I should follow @Cloud9's advice to a larger extent. It does seem to make a lot of sense.

Edited August 15, 2023 by danej