433 Total Football: Unbeaten Season

[Novem9]

After reading Cruyff's book "My Turn: The Autobiography", I realized how misunderstood football  Inspired by him, I decided to experience new visions in FM22

Although I have tried the 3331 without fullbacks/wingbacks too, I find this system unpredictable with the existing tools. (I used the attacking wingers slots, not the wm positions)

Therefore, we are talking about formation 433. Nothing special, just as Cruyff said: play beautiful and simple:

This system allowed me to go from division 5 to the season without defeat in domestic matches for AZ in the first full season (journeyman save).

 

According to Cruyff's precepts, I emphasized tactics on the following factors: possession, simplicity, forward - the first defender and the goalkeeper - the first attacker.

One of the key players is the right-back. In fact, the whole flank is given to him, he creates width and has a good number of assists per season. At the same time, the left back (the most scarce position in football) has the function of covering, and often I used as a central defender for this slot. Especially not the tallest. 

The formation often looked like 3 CBs (green team) :

4-5 are CBs and 6 is DLP. Pay attention to the number of triangles between the players. Triangles are the basis of Cruyff's philosophy, a player with ball must have at least two teammates for passing in every moment of game.

The left flank has the functions of a shock. F9 is one of the best if not the best goalscorer in the teams. But since he often plays the “attacking DM” in the opponent’s third, the role of the main player for the aggravating pass is given to the IW and MEZ, a kind of shadow striker, if you will.

I had no problem choosing the role of a defensive midfielder. Cruyff very aptly noted that a player from the depth sees the field better than one who is surrounded by opponents. He compared it to rugby. However, it was a problem to choose a right central midfielder. I put it one of the last. Considering the roles, I chose BTB - this is a versatile person that saturates any point of the field and is ready for any kind of work. 

Most of all I liked the right flank of the attack. Often I have used 3cb formations without wingers, not fully understanding how best to use them. Cruyff convinced me that there is nothing better than three strikers across the entire width of the field.

But I didn't want to use a hit forward. It should have been thinner, in many ways I was guided by Pep and Barcelona. This is partly Bernardo in Man City (before the idea of using him as a lateral, lol). While IW uses the pass to free himself to move forward:

AP accelerates attacks in all sorts of ways:

AP and WB (both on the right flank) are best chance creaters:

And classical F9 passing, "attacking DM" style. I note that F9 is very important for the partners to correctly offer themselves under the ball. Otherwise F9 will be useless. Cleon had a great article "What makes a striker", here the situation is reversed - "How F9 makes an attack"

Stats of F9 and reserve F9 still good, despite they need to make a lot of work away from box:

 

 

 

DLP is the heart, he is the brain, he is the team. Rarely a direct assist, or even an important passer, he picks up attacks from safe areas and backs them up.

As the team was building up, we lost to Benfica on penalties in the final round of the playoffs. The next defeat of the season did not come until May, when AZ failed to beat Sociedad in the Europa League final.

Possession is the best defence: 

Since this is an journeyman, I got the team in not the best condition. And certainly not sharpened by this style. We have small salaries relative to Ajax, but after the departure of Zidane in the middle of the season, something went wrong for them. Salaries:

Stats by all teams:

 

It's not a panacea as it doesn't use exploits. There are a number of countermeasures that can reduce the chances of a tactic to win. But it's not easy to do it.

Also Zwolle shows you need a specific players. Not the best, but specific. Just as Cruyff said. The same for AZ - We had a number of draws when F9 was not suitable, or the new one had not yet been played with partners:

And it started to work after newbie adapted

 

Sociedad shows how to play against me:

They suppressed our combinational play in the center, after which they sought to quickly go on the counterattack. Their activity was in that part of the field where we had a weak cover. They were good, although their goals are a penalty from a corner and a long-range shoot (no freekick, ingame moment). It was a long season, especially mentally, to get to this match. I'm not disappointed at all, because as Cruyff said: “It is better to fail with your own vision than to fail with another man's vision.”

How right he was!

Edited August 29, 2023 by Novem9

[Novem9]

Updated F9 screen, it was incorrect

[coach vahid]

You don't have problems with the IW AT and MEZ AT on the same side? Do you play with some PI's ?

[Novem9]

6 минут назад, coach vahid сказал:

You don't have problems with the IW AT and MEZ AT on the same side? Do you play with some PI's ?

 Pi's are clear.

No problems at all. First idea was to use IF, but he doesn't good in teamwork, especially off the ball imo.

I had a doubt about a conflict of positions/interaction, but didn't see any issues. IW+Mez work good. Check video. 

Don't sure about W(a) , maybe it will be even better. Main point to fill area of striker and be a target for passing forward, if F9 plays deeper. And no isolation in general, able for short passing/counter press

[coach vahid]

I love the first goal. The way they gain ground, fantastic.

[Novem9]

34 минуты назад, coach vahid сказал:

I love the first goal. The way they gain ground, fantastic.

Sow is IW and Kleijn is Mez in this goal. They have crossing paths only once, but they use this issue effective. F9 is van den Heerik

[coach vahid]

Do you need to adapt some roles or some team instructions when you're leading or when you're losing ?

[Novem9]

1 час назад, coach vahid сказал:

Do you need to adapt some roles or some team instructions when you're leading or when you're losing ?

I used time wasting few times in difficult games. Although I don't use get stuck in, 2-3 times per season my players had red cards. I removed AP from game and used be more disciplined (just to do something )

I'm not sure about the need to use a cautious mentality. This can play a cruel joke, since Cruyff's idea is to press and have an advantage in every part of the field. The cautious mentality is hardly consistent with the "Striker - first defender" doctrine.

But each match is unique, if you want to edit the tactic, just do it based on the context of what you see, and not according to general instructions.

[nick1408]

21 hours ago, Novem9 said:

 Pi's are clear.

I must admit, I am struggling to pick up on the player instructions you are using, much like @coach vahid.

 

I am guessing the central defenders are told to pass short and the defensive midfielder is possibly told to make more direct passes (to offer a point of difference to the team instruction of shorter passing) I also think both wingers are told to sit narrower. Beyond that, I have no idea what your standard player instructions would be.

 

It feels like asking for the player instructions when they aren't listed is a bit of an insult. I certainly don't see it that way and am more in the camp that they help understand how individual roles work within a tactic.

[Novem9]

1 час назад, nick1408 сказал:

I must admit, I am struggling to pick up on the player instructions you are using, much like @coach vahid.

 

I am guessing the central defenders are told to pass short and the defensive midfielder is possibly told to make more direct passes (to offer a point of difference to the team instruction of shorter passing) I also think both wingers are told to sit narrower. Beyond that, I have no idea what your standard player instructions would be.

 

It feels like asking for the player instructions when they aren't listed is a bit of an insult. I certainly don't see it that way and am more in the camp that they help understand how individual roles work within a tactic.

Clear = empty list, I don't use them 

[nick1408]

31 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Clear = empty list, I don't use them 

Thanks - I thought 'clear' meant 'clear as mud'. Turns out I didn't miss anything when reading the original post.

 

On that note; is there player traits you look at to get what you want?

Edited August 30, 2023 by nick1408

[Novem9]

9 минут назад, nick1408 сказал:

On that note; is there player traits you look at to get what you want?

it definitely scares me if a striker tends to play on the edge of offside. However, due to injury, I had to use the bbm player in position of dlp. He has trait runs forward, but he was good in hold position. It needs to mention despite dlp has option hold position, it's different holding, because all playmakers moves closer to teammates in ball possession. Maybe striker with offside trait will be fine as f9, don't sure.

More important for me attributes. I have few reserve players ranked as D2, but they were fine because attributes are balanced. And player who ranked as 4star player was poor, because he is not good for possession and smart decisions. His strengths speed, composure, agility. And he didn't score/assist anything for few months despite striker/winger roles usage. 

For example, my dlp has passing 11. But this is fine, because team style is short passing. But his mentality is good. It's important because he has a lot of options to passing and his decision is vector of attack. 

CBs use short passing too, but they need technical attributes at least 9+ (8+ if he is really good in other) and good skill to work under pressure (including strength and balance). Vision is not mandatory, but 8-12 is great. Don't need more. But tactic works in D5 in semi/pro and amateur, so it's relative to the opponent

as you can see it is logical. you look at the function of the role, compare with the player and evaluate if he has critical problems.

 

[nick1408]

2 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

For example, my dlp has passing 11. But this is fine, because team style is short passing. But his mentality is good. It's important because he has a lot of options to passing and his decision is vector of attack. 

 

I did notice this and thought the role and mental stats would balance out the passing

2 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

as you can see it is logical. you look at the function of the role, compare with the player and evaluate if he has critical problems.

 

Yep, absolutely. Makes complete sense.

[Novem9]

28 минут назад, nick1408 сказал:

On that note; is there player traits you look at to get what you want?

One more example. I had CB in Zwolle with strength=8. it was painful in a one-on-one , especially in d2. apparently there are stronger attackers, while in d1 they are more skillful. But this CB the best in season by intercepts and air. In d1 he was the best player of the season, despite Zwolle was in 6th place (it was great for us, but it's even not 3th place). part of it is because the midfield has gotten better and made life easier for him. 

[coach vahid]

So frankly, i tried for four matchs with an average team with some players, surely, don't have qualities for some roles. And the results are excellent with four wins. I have possession but not too sterile, and if i can't have it, the team can product good football with interestings movements. Maybe later, the team will suffer, but i find the way it plays coherent.

Great effort.

[Novem9]

16 минут назад, coach vahid сказал:

So frankly, i tried for four matchs with an average team with some players, surely, don't have qualities for some roles. And the results are excellent with four wins. I have possession but not too sterile, and if i can't have it, the team can product good football with interestings movements. Maybe later, the team will suffer, but i find the way it plays coherent.

Great effort.

My new save - York in D6 Vanarama North. So far so good, I've reached the 3rd round of the FA Cup, I'm leading in league by 10 points, January 2022.

The main thing is teamwork and understanding of tactics for players. There may be problems with the players, but in my case it was a complete mismatch of mental attributes (and partial - technical)

18 минут назад, coach vahid сказал:

I have possession but not too sterile,

Great, so FM22 defines the style as VERTICAL tiki-taka. I played pure tiki-taka with minimal passing a few months ago. I won three Copa Libertadores in a row, but it was painful - possession for the sake of possession  

 

Its FM22 too?

[coach vahid]

Yeah. I'm still on fm22. This is why i was interested.

And when in a sentence, there's Cruyff, Football manager... We are always interested.

You talked about balance attributes, but what you're searching for?

[dom.march]

do you use any OI ?

[Novem9]

38 минут назад, coach vahid сказал:

You talked about balance attributes, but what you're searching for?

see my answer above today. Shortly, according to the roles and what really happens on the field. Relatively technical footballers with good mental abilities as base. Since players must be able to both develop attacks through possession and press after losing the ball, versatility is welcome.

38 минут назад, coach vahid сказал:

Yeah. I'm still on fm22. This is why i was interested.

 

Looks like it works fine for FM23 too. I didn't tune new FM23 TI's, but short holiday test was satisfactory. 

25 минут назад, dom.march сказал:

do you use any OI ?

No because I'm lazy. And I'm not very good at using this settings. I would definitely mention such a "little thing" if I used  

Edited August 30, 2023 by Novem9

[Novem9]

York City FC:

False Nine

He has offside trait, but still fine in F9.

 

IW:

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Novem9

[dom.march]

Did you try another role than a F9 ? i tryed your tactic and see that it is a very static role

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, dom.march сказал:

Did you try another role than a F9 ? i tryed your tactic and see that it is a very static role

No, I don't see any alternative. DLF is different for functions, and PF(s) too. It's strange, because F9 goes deeper almost  to the middle zone. Actually in first video f9 plays in positions of CMs.

Probably specific player is static in reason of traits or attributes? 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Novem9

[MIRKOFERRARI]

I'm still playing with fm22 myself, is it possible to have this tactic? Thank you @Novem9

[coach vahid]

il y a 56 minutes, MIRKOFERRARI a dit :

I'm still playing with fm22 myself, is it possible to have this tactic? Thank you @Novem9

If i may...

You just have to copy. There's no players instructions. On FM 22, i took a lot of pleasure with this tactic.

[MIRKOFERRARI]

I thought it was a tactic to be downloaded, excuse me, so by copying the roles and team instructions you say it works the same? I enjoy playing with Brest who in fm22 is predicted 17th

[coach vahid]

il y a une heure, MIRKOFERRARI a dit :

I thought it was a tactic to be downloaded, excuse me, so by copying the roles and team instructions you say it works the same? I enjoy playing with Brest who in fm22 is predicted 17th

Yes. I played a lot with it.

[Novem9]

11 часов назад, MIRKOFERRARI сказал:

I'm still playing with fm22 myself, is it possible to have this tactic? Thank you @Novem9

Hey, I have no originals since delete FM22, but as @coach vahid said, there is no any PIs or OIs

[Novem9]

btw, my system for FM24 works fine too  no PIs

[HanziZoloman]

hey guys, thanks @Novem9 for the beautiful explanation. It's what I hoped for and it helped tons in my save. We were with our backs at the wall, morale down and 11 losses in a row. It took a while to adapt but it's giving results now and we still stand a chance to survive relegation battle.

If you hadn't the ideal players which attributes would miss most and which the less in the attacking key roles like F9, AP and MEZ? Or do you try your players in the roles and watch how they're doing?

[Novem9]

1 час назад, HanziZoloman сказал:

If you hadn't the ideal players which attributes would miss most and which the less in the attacking key roles like F9, AP and MEZ? Or do you try your players in the roles and watch how they're doing?

I just trust the game, FM marks the right attributes. Although I remember one of my saves was in the 5th division of Germany. I set this tactic, without any hope, but my completely uncreative sniper was great as f9. But you can try AF, I play tiki taka with AF in FM24, and it's great. The formation is different, but still.

Also AP could be a 'stupid runner'. The idea in a scripted decisions for the roles, and how it works together 

Edited August 21 by Novem9

[TheMartello]

8 hours ago, Novem9 said:

I just trust the game, FM marks the right attributes. Although I remember one of my saves was in the 5th division of Germany. I set this tactic, without any hope, but my completely uncreative sniper was great as f9. But you can try AF, I play tiki taka with AF in FM24, and it's great. The formation is different, but still.

Also AP could be a 'stupid runner'. The idea in a scripted decisions for the roles, and how it works together 

What tactic do you use on FM24?

[Novem9]

1 час назад, TheMartello сказал:

What tactic do you use on FM24?

my custom tiki taka:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/577636-433-total-football-unbeaten-season/?do=findComment&comment=14497814

[TheMartello]

59 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

my custom tiki taka:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/577636-433-total-football-unbeaten-season/?do=findComment&comment=14497814

Oh wow, I'm blind. Thanks!

[HanziZoloman]

How is the intention to defend? 
Press high and then what?

would you share some thoughts about that please?

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, HanziZoloman сказал:

How is the intention to defend? 
Press high and then what?

would you share some thoughts about that please?

What is the question? 

In modern football, a team that plays passively is simply doomed to concede goals. The challenge is to find a balance so that playing without the ball doesn't become reckless.

[HanziZoloman]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Novem9:

What is the question? 

In modern football, a team that plays passively is simply doomed to concede goals. The challenge is to find a balance so that playing without the ball doesn't become reckless.

I do well with both setups in FM24. Really good work but I want to know what to look at in Defense transitions. 

[Novem9]

2 часа назад, HanziZoloman сказал:

I do well with both setups in FM24. Really good work but I want to know what to look at in Defense transitions. 

I'm not sure if I have the skills or if I can discover something new. I just make sure that my defensive 5 players are able to slow down opposite attack. If you have any questions, better create specific topic

[levo in da house]

Very good. 65% possession.
Left wing 25 g/a right wing 12 g/a AF 23 goals scored.
I used it for 1.5 seasons. I won 1 league championship.
I am currently progressing in the top league with a winning rate of 8/8.
 I'm conceding 1 goal per match, I couldn't find a solution to this

[Novem9]

В 24.08.2024 в 21:29, levo in da house сказал:

Very good. 65% possession.
Left wing 25 g/a right wing 12 g/a AF 23 goals scored.
I used it for 1.5 seasons. I won 1 league championship.
I am currently progressing in the top league with a winning rate of 8/8.
 I'm conceding 1 goal per match, I couldn't find a solution to this

You are talking about fm24 version, aren't you?

My defense rate changed from the worst to the best during a few seasons after promotion. Just buy better goalkeeper and defenders in next seasons, and it will be better. 

[levo in da house]

15 saat önce, Novem9 said:

You are talking about fm24 version, aren't you?

My defense rate changed from the worst to the best during a few seasons after promotion. Just buy better goalkeeper and defenders in next seasons, and it will be better. 

Yes, but it got better.I conceded 3 goals in 8 matches. I will try to turn it into 4-3-3. I hope I can do it😄

[levo in da house]

I changed it to 4-3-3. I think it's good.
Can you try it and comment?
I've just instructed the left to bring the ball inside.

[Novem9]

15 часов назад, levo in da house сказал:

I changed it to 4-3-3. I think it's good.
Can you try it and comment?
I've just instructed the left to bring the ball inside.

I would definitely use BBM -> MEZ. I'm also a little confused by the number of players in support duty. But your stats look great, why fix something that already works?

[Hootieleece]

I am playing a 4-3-3 in Japan's J1 League and absolutely dominating using a 4-3-3 DM Wide and the standard Gengen press instructions from the Tactical editor. Its not rocket science.

Decent players for the roles and just let them go. 

[coach vahid]

Il y a 8 heures, Hootieleece a dit :

I am playing a 4-3-3 in Japan's J1 League and absolutely dominating using a 4-3-3 DM Wide and the standard Gengen press instructions from the Tactical editor. Its not rocket science.

Decent players for the roles and just let them go. 

I would like to know if you can share your set-up, your experience, how you scouting for "decent players for the roles".