A Carrilero Variant for a Midfield Pairing.

[Mr Phalanx]

We know what the carrilero does.

- Occupies spaces that have been vacated by the attacking full back.

- Jumps out to the flanks to close down opposition players.

- Be the extra body from midfield to participate in wide combinations.

The first point is what I like about the role. The carrilero basically covers the space left behind by an overexcited full back wandering deep into enemy territory. I'd like to see a role like that for one of a midfield two, especially in a 442.  The formation requires a lot of work from the pair. They both have to protect the centre and contribute to defense and attack. But we all know one is usually given the freedom to roam or crash the box while the other stays to not leave the middle empty. Finding that balance is key.

In FM, there are 2 ways to do this.

- support and defend duties

- two support duties with one with specific instructions to hold position.

These are fine but I'd like a role that exists just for covering a midfield partner just like a carrilero swears to always be there for his adventurous full back. The problem with the defend duty in midfield is that it sits too deep and just watches his support duty brother try to press everyone in front of him. He acts on his own. It leaves a huge gap and turns a 4-4-2 shape to a 4-1-1-2. Defend duty midfielders fit the holder in a 3 better than that of a 2. There's a thread here on this platform on how to defend like a real 442 with two support duty CMs. The writer had probably conceded a truckload of long shots because the defend duty CM preferred to admire the man in front of him instead of stopping him from shooting.

The problem with two support duty midfielders is that the guy you tell to hold his position does exactly what you tell him to do but clogs the space in front of him in the the process. This is usually when we are attacking. I literally yell at the guy to give some breathing room to the other attackers and his midfield partner. He just stays there. What I'd like him to do is  adjust his positioning in relation to his partner. "Let me drop down a bit, so that my partner will have enough space to play around while also making myself an option for a back pass and being in a better position to see the game in front of me'. He should be thinking like this.

I feel I'm talking about a role that positions itself like a defend duty CM in attack and presses like a support duty CM when we are in our defensive shape. Not really though. I still want the holder in a midfield pair to not sit but to just hang back temporarily just like the carrilero does not sit on the flanks. The arrival into that space is based on the  overlapping of the full back on his side. He doesn't just sit there, he still enters the box when he's not watching his friend's back. 

This role should make things more flexible and dynamic for double pivots too instead of having fixed duties for each.

[herne79]

You may just be using the wrong type of player.  Different players play the same role differently, so separating the role from the player is only looking at one half of the coin.

For more information on Carrilero behaviour, have a read of this:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/412866-fm18-new-roles-explained/

There’s been some updates since but it’s still sound info.  Whilst primarily designed for use in narrow formations the Carrilero can still be used in formations using “wingers” (collective term), it just won’t behave in quite the same manner.  Again though, pay attention to the type of player (their attributes and Traits) being used 👍.

Edited September 8, 2023 by herne79

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, Mr Phalanx said:

We know what the carrilero does.

- Occupies spaces that have been vacated by the attacking full back.

- Jumps out to the flanks to close down opposition players.

- Be the extra body from midfield to participate in wide combinations.

The first point is what I like about the role. The carrilero basically covers the space left behind by an overexcited full back wandering deep into enemy territory. I'd like to see a role like that for one of a midfield two, especially in a 442.  The formation requires a lot of work from the pair. They both have to protect the centre and contribute to defense and attack. But we all know one is usually given the freedom to roam or crash the box while the other stays to not leave the middle empty. Finding that balance is key.

In FM, there are 2 ways to do this.

- support and defend duties

- two support duties with one with specific instructions to hold position.

These are fine but I'd like a role that exists just for covering a midfield partner just like a carrilero swears to always be there for his adventurous full back. The problem with the defend duty in midfield is that it sits too deep and just watches his support duty brother try to press everyone in front of him. He acts on his own. It leaves a huge gap and turns a 4-4-2 shape to a 4-1-1-2. Defend duty midfielders fit the holder in a 3 better than that of a 2. There's a thread here on this platform on how to defend like a real 442 with two support duty CMs. The writer had probably conceded a truckload of long shots because the defend duty CM preferred to admire the man in front of him instead of stopping him from shooting.

The problem with two support duty midfielders is that the guy you tell to hold his position does exactly what you tell him to do but clogs the space in front of him in the the process. This is usually when we are attacking. I literally yell at the guy to give some breathing room to the other attackers and his midfield partner. He just stays there. What I'd like him to do is  adjust his positioning in relation to his partner. "Let me drop down a bit, so that my partner will have enough space to play around while also making myself an option for a back pass and being in a better position to see the game in front of me'. He should be thinking like this.

I feel I'm talking about a role that positions itself like a defend duty CM in attack and presses like a support duty CM when we are in our defensive shape. Not really though. I still want the holder in a midfield pair to not sit but to just hang back temporarily just like the carrilero does not sit on the flanks. The arrival into that space is based on the  overlapping of the full back on his side. He doesn't just sit there, he still enters the box when he's not watching his friend's back. 

This role should make things more flexible and dynamic for double pivots too instead of having fixed duties for each.

Are you playing a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond? They're not classical pivot players (usually playing in front of a dm), which may be part of your frustration. 

Hard agree on the attribute component that @herne79 mentions. If you want a more aggressive CM(s), you can tinker the PIs or even run a BWM(s) instead.

You could also try dropping your pivot back to the DM strata. A halfback is an extremely aggressive ball playing sweeper in a two, and an SV(s) pairing can give you some forward movement as a defensive BBM. Maybe that's too far from your original idea but it might be a different approach to get what you're looking for. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Cloud9

[Mr Phalanx]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Are you playing a flat 4-4-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond? They're not classical pivot players (usually playing in front of a dm), which may be part of your frustration. 

Hard agree on the attribute component that @herne79 mentions. If you want a more aggressive CM(s), you can tinker the PIs or even run a BWM(s) instead.

You could also try dropping your pivot back to the DM strata. A halfback is an extremely aggressive ball playing sweeper in a two, and an SV(s) pairing can give you some forward movement as a defensive BBM. Maybe that's too far from your original idea but it might be a different approach to get what you're looking for. 

Talking about 442 Flat and 442 DM here. And I never said I want the carrilero. I only want the space covering job that comes with it. The carrilero and the halfback are the only roles that intentionally fill spaces vacated by a team mate. They are designed to watch and react to the  movement of their mates and cover for them. That's what I'm looking for in one of a midfield pair. Defend duty midfielders look like their covering their mate but they are really not. They are just naturally positioned lower than support duties. 

About your suggestions. I've tried all. I wouldn't bring this up on the forum if I hadn't played with different roles and PIs and all of the above. I just want someone whose positioning in those situations is a reaction to the movement of his midfield partner.