Struggling to make Inside Forward on Attack work

[HotPizza87]

This was my tactic last season:
 

gh

 

My team reached the playoffs and was knocked out in the playoff final. The only thing that I would tweak is the type of playmaker used in MCL, going DLP if I needed more solidity.

There were some problems I noticed:
1) The Poacher saw very little of the ball and only scored if he could get in behind.
2) The inside forward and inverted winger almost never crossed as soon as the opportunity arose (which would mostly have created a goal) and almost always tried (and failed) to cut back, hopelessly releasing the ball far too late, by which time the opposition had bodies in the box to defend most shots.
3) If I used either IF or IW on Attack duty, we never scored from open play.

To be fair, we were dominating most matches and winning them comfortably and seldom conceding goals either.

So I tried to bring that tactic into the next season but quickly found that every team was parking the bus and my front 3 was getting very low ratings, and our shots to shots on target ratio was much higher than last season. That is, most shots were not on target and we couldn't get any joy in the middle. I think what happened was the AI thought last season my team was a mid table side. It was our first season in EFL1 after all, so they didn't respect us as much as this season. So we had a lot of fun through the middle. But this season they've closed up shop.

Naturally I tinkered to respond, keeping the same roles, trying to make the striker a support striker instead with the IF on Attack and/or increasing attacking width and passing length, but the result was the same. Keep in mind that 10 matches in, we have still won 9. But the wins were very scrappy and I am not happy at all with how my team has played because I can't get my players to find space in central areas at all now. All my goals have been lucky, except against the rare team that has given us space in behind.

So I thought about Man City, as you do, and how Pep Guardiola likes to get his wide players to stay as wide as possible and then he likes to get his central midfield players to move into the half spaces, forcing the full backs to choose between marking one of these players. I believe the cool kids call this an "overload".

This is what I came up with.

Don't get me wrong, I want to use a Poacher, but it's having no results and I think that means I need to get my goals from the flanks instead. I now need to stretch the opposition because they park the bus, but I don't have the players to play 2 wingers because I finished the transfer window thinking I'm going to use two wide players who cut inside - and so I didn't shop for people who are good at crossing. So I've got it into my head that I've got to feed my AML and get goals from him.

The first game I played with this tactic? Drew 1-1? Both goals from a corner. So I need some help here...

[Johnny Ace]

I put this thread together for times like this:

I find going back to to basics the way to go when things aren't working out 

[Rashidi]

You have a mez going to the halfspace with another role that attacks that area so there might be one too many players there. I would try and create a system where i drag more players to the right and create space for the IF. So consider using a W on the right flank with a mezz on attack, a box to box beside the IF(A). This way you are using roles to build play up around the right side. The Mezz attacks the right side area, this should free up space for the IF(A) to have more one on ones against the fullback. 

[Cloud9]

17 hours ago, HotPizza87 said:

This was my tactic last season:
 

gh

 

My team reached the playoffs and was knocked out in the playoff final. The only thing that I would tweak is the type of playmaker used in MCL, going DLP if I needed more solidity.

There were some problems I noticed:
1) The Poacher saw very little of the ball and only scored if he could get in behind.
2) The inside forward and inverted winger almost never crossed as soon as the opportunity arose (which would mostly have created a goal) and almost always tried (and failed) to cut back, hopelessly releasing the ball far too late, by which time the opposition had bodies in the box to defend most shots.
3) If I used either IF or IW on Attack duty, we never scored from open play.

To be fair, we were dominating most matches and winning them comfortably and seldom conceding goals either.

So I tried to bring that tactic into the next season but quickly found that every team was parking the bus and my front 3 was getting very low ratings, and our shots to shots on target ratio was much higher than last season. That is, most shots were not on target and we couldn't get any joy in the middle. I think what happened was the AI thought last season my team was a mid table side. It was our first season in EFL1 after all, so they didn't respect us as much as this season. So we had a lot of fun through the middle. But this season they've closed up shop.

Naturally I tinkered to respond, keeping the same roles, trying to make the striker a support striker instead with the IF on Attack and/or increasing attacking width and passing length, but the result was the same. Keep in mind that 10 matches in, we have still won 9. But the wins were very scrappy and I am not happy at all with how my team has played because I can't get my players to find space in central areas at all now. All my goals have been lucky, except against the rare team that has given us space in behind.

So I thought about Man City, as you do, and how Pep Guardiola likes to get his wide players to stay as wide as possible and then he likes to get his central midfield players to move into the half spaces, forcing the full backs to choose between marking one of these players. I believe the cool kids call this an "overload".

This is what I came up with.

Don't get me wrong, I want to use a Poacher, but it's having no results and I think that means I need to get my goals from the flanks instead. I now need to stretch the opposition because they park the bus, but I don't have the players to play 2 wingers because I finished the transfer window thinking I'm going to use two wide players who cut inside - and so I didn't shop for people who are good at crossing. So I've got it into my head that I've got to feed my AML and get goals from him.

The first game I played with this tactic? Drew 1-1? Both goals from a corner. So I need some help here...

I'm not a big fan of an IF in a midblock. Those inside runs to goal are easier to execution w/ a high line imo like w/a SV/IWB etc. 

I replicated how an IF(a) would play in real life on a midblock using an off footed W(a). That gets them to come inside a bit more, but still take advantage of wide spaces to run into. 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cloud9

[HotPizza87]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I'm not a big fan of an IF in a midblock. Those inside runs to goal are easier to execution w/ a high line imo like w/a SV/IWB etc. 

I replicated how an IF(a) would play in real life on a midblock using an off footed W(a). That gets them to come inside a bit more, but still take advantage of wide spaces to run into. 

This is something I worked on today before I read the thread. The interaction with Mez(A) was really good, with typically the Mez being the one getting into goalscoring opportunities from it. Their full back couldn't stop it, only their midfield could do something to stop the ball being played in, and the DCs typically were pinned by the Poacher (I quickly abandoned Pressing Forward or support striker in STC because I don't have the personnel for it). I used IW(s) and W(A). The playmaker on MCL varied and didn't seem to matter too much. I also put my D-Line on the Much Higher with Higher engagement. I realised that if I am going to get my two CMs involved into the half spaces, I had to push up on the opposition. They are going to park the bus anyway, so it's not like I'm boxing them in with the press.

Crossing noticeably increased in frequency using the wingers.

 

22 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You have a mez going to the halfspace with another role that attacks that area so there might be one too many players there. I would try and create a system where i drag more players to the right and create space for the IF. So consider using a W on the right flank with a mezz on attack, a box to box beside the IF(A). This way you are using roles to build play up around the right side. The Mezz attacks the right side area, this should free up space for the IF(A) to have more one on ones against the fullback. 

Hi Daljit.
I'm not sure it's too many if I tell the IF(A) to stay wider. But using when I tried IF(A), with or without Stay Wider, it was noticeably quiet on that flank, mainly because the IF(A) ran at the byline and failed to cutback quickly, but it meant my Poacher had a bit more fun.

Watching the behaviour of IF(A), I fear there is a problem with the match engine in the release of the ball, including even if I instruct Dribble Less. The delay in release is consistent, even though there are bodies running into the box ready to receive the ball. Also noticeable those bodies tended to run too far forwards (Mez and Poacher stood next to opposition GK) to receive a true cutback, but if it was a cross, they would score. The problem is the cross from an IF(A) never comes.

I want to believe IF(A) can work. I'm winning every match so maybe it isn't necessary after all. But why does he run at the byline consistently, instead of cutting in and shooting? I'm never seeing the typical Man Utd Antony-style individualist horizontal dribble across the edge of the box and shoot, nor  am I seeing the same run to thread a pass through to the back post. Come to think of it, in the past few FMs I'd abandoned using AML/R because of failures in their behaviours and was a firm believer in the 442 narrow diamond, focused on playing through the middle. I can't help but be frustrated that if I want my primary goalscorer to be a wide player in the form of IF(A) or even Raumdeuter, I'm out of luck.

How have you got your IF(A) to work in the past? I was thinking of even subscribing to your Patreon for another coaching session and get my save on a Gamechanger video to get this sorted. Anyway, I will play with your suggestions in the quote and see how it goes.

Edited September 22, 2023 by HotPizza87

[Poison]

On 21/09/2023 at 09:13, HotPizza87 said:

1) The Poacher saw very little of the ball and only scored if he could get in behind.
2) The inside forward and inverted winger almost never crossed as soon as the opportunity arose (which would mostly have created a goal) and almost always tried (and failed) to cut back, hopelessly releasing the ball far too late, by which time the opposition had bodies in the box to defend most shots.
3) If I used either IF or IW on Attack duty, we never scored from open play.

1. It's natural, he's a poacher after-all, try a dlf -su or pf -su as you did and you'll see results.

2.Try "Hit early crosses" maybe? it seems to be exactly what you want.

3. Are your players good enough to play this role? Is the if right footed?

Btw, you need to "throw it long" to distribute to full-backs, not roll it out.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Poison
typo

[HotPizza87]

Erm... changing my midfield to CAR and Mez(S) worked wonders. 0 goals from set pieces, 2 goals from the IF(A), 1 goal and 2 assists from the Mez.  3 shots conceded with only 2 on target, 0 chances conceded, won 4-0 first go using this. But we were against the 2nd from bottom team. Anyway:
IF(A)-AF-W(A)
CAR(S)-MEZ(S)
DM(D)
WB(S)-BPD-CD-IWB(S)

Positive
Hit Early Crosses
Low Crosses (opposition had beanpole defenders)
Underlap Right
Slightly Lower Tempo

Throw It Long
Distribute To Full Backs
Hold Shape

Much Higher D-Line
High Press
Slightly Less Often (give myself a few more transitions from deep/tire my lads out less, none of them have above 14 stamina, mostly 12)

No OIs and PI set.

I'm gonna keep going with this, and if it keeps working, I'll be getting myself a better carrilero midfielder. Considering using a spare full back Regan Poole or Sam Curtis as carrilero.

I like this carrilero business. Doesn't get in the way of the IF, gives my midfield extra steel.

Edited September 22, 2023 by HotPizza87