Can someone tell me why this tactic works?

[scornflakes]

This is something I just copied off of Zealand's videos. I'm actually clueless on how to set up a 4-4-2 and I've used this in my Crystal Palace save. Can someone tell me why this wins me games???

[Dotsworthy]

Massive overload on the right hand side, with Yusuf moving into the channel being backed up with a winger makes things difficult for the opponents left hand side. Add the mid-block with pass into space and you've got a good team on the counter.

Also the 4-4-2 has been a great formation for years. Two strikers is just very difficult to defend against.

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, scornflakes said:

This is something I just copied off of Zealand's videos. I'm actually clueless on how to set up a 4-4-2 and I've used this in my Crystal Palace save. Can someone tell me why this wins me games???

You could take the bones of this and make it your own which I would recommend. The current setup is looking to play to the ME strengths which I'm not crazy about (double attack duty striker pairing, asymmetrical, heavy wing play).

• Counterpress on a midblock can be difficult as a preset, your players will get beat frequently which is a problem. It's a strong TI to use in moments of a match. 
  • Might look to play around with the width setting, how defensively compact do you want your side to be?
  • Defensive width is particularly important for a 4-4-2 where the two wide midfielders can assist the CM double pivot or leave them isolated. 
• Switching the TF(a) to TF(s). Double attack duty partnership is a bit dull, esp when one is an AF. PF(s/d) could be fun on a narrow 4-4-2, gives you an athletico Madrid style pressing trap box between the strikers and CMs.
• Low tempo can be fine, but you'll want to amp that up in periods of the match. I'd prefer a higher tempo in a mid block counter attack to ensure I'm getting pressure back on the opposition. 
• Another nice change could be swap out one of the two WB(s), try spicing things up by adding a FB(a) on the right. You'll keep the core idea of both wingbacks going forward but it'll be a bit less one dimensional. 
  • Tactic looks very dependent on the DLP(s) to pass the ball around and progress it outside of your wingbacks. DLP(s) primarily recycles possession so you may need to play around with his PIs/traits if you want him launching counters frequently.
  • Solution could be to add in a SK(d) or BPD as well or play w/out a playmaker all together. If you go no playmaker go into the PIs of each player and select 2-3 you want progressing the ball via a combination of dribble more or take more risks/pass more direct. 

If you're happy with how it's playing in the ME already that's totally fine too, esp if it's the kind of football you want to see your team playing

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cloud9

[mikcheck]

Em 22/09/2023 em 19:29, Cloud9 disse:

You could take the bones of this and make it your own which I would recommend. The current setup is looking to play to the ME strengths which I'm not crazy about (double attack duty striker pairing, asymmetrical, heavy wing play).

• Counterpress on a midblock can be difficult as a preset, your players will get beat frequently which is a problem. It's a strong TI to use in moments of a match. 
  • Might look to play around with the width setting, how defensively compact do you want your side to be?
  • Defensive width is particularly important for a 4-4-2 where the two wide midfielders can assist the CM double pivot or leave them isolated. 
• Switching the TF(a) to TF(s). Double attack duty partnership is a bit dull, esp when one is an AF. PF(s/d) could be fun on a narrow 4-4-2, gives you an athletico Madrid style pressing trap box between the strikers and CMs.
• Low tempo can be fine, but you'll want to amp that up in periods of the match. I'd prefer a higher tempo in a mid block counter attack to ensure I'm getting pressure back on the opposition. 
• Another nice change could be swap out one of the two WB(s), try spicing things up by adding a FB(a) on the right. You'll keep the core idea of both wingbacks going forward but it'll be a bit less one dimensional. 
  • Tactic looks very dependent on the DLP(s) to pass the ball around and progress it outside of your wingbacks. DLP(s) primarily recycles possession so you may need to play around with his PIs/traits if you want him launching counters frequently.
  • Solution could be to add in a SK(d) or BPD as well or play w/out a playmaker all together. If you go no playmaker go into the PIs of each player and select 2-3 you want progressing the ball via a combination of dribble more or take more risks/pass more direct. 

If you're happy with how it's playing in the ME already that's totally fine too, esp if it's the kind of football you want to see your team playing

So you'd say that 2 strikers formation are easier than other formations that use 1 striker? I'm using a flat 442 with 2 attack duties upfront (DLF and AF), but that's because I want to play a quick counter attacking game and if there's something I hate and takes away the joy to play tha game is to use something that's kind of cheating and that's also the reason why I use a low/medium block and not those crazy maxed out pressing tactics.

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, mikcheck said:

So you'd say that 2 strikers formation are easier than other formations that use 1 striker? I'm using a flat 442 with 2 attack duties upfront (DLF and AF), but that's because I want to play a quick counter attacking game and if there's something I hate and takes away the joy to play tha game is to use something that's kind of cheating and that's also the reason why I use a low/medium block and not those crazy maxed out pressing tactics.

Imo it's more about intent/spirit with how you've set up your tactic. There are several things in the above tactic that look to me like choices taken intentionally because the AI will struggle to deal with them, rather than creating a football system they want to see played in game. That's common w/ a number of his tactics I've seen. 

• A striker pairing lets you create a complete striker, so it can be quite a nice choice when playing with more limited players. A double attack duty striker pairing is quite strong in the ME, which is a bit disproportion to how many top teams run them IRL. 

For your save I wouldn't worry  Sounds like you're trying to create your own style of play which is great.

• The Spanish style 4-4-2 looks to create a pressing trap in between the striker pairing and the CMs which you might be interested in. Unai Emery at Villa is running a more attacking variant and then of course there's the original Athletico Madrid style 4-4-2 you could check out. Villarael were another Spanish side running a pretty interesting/effective 4-4-2 you could look to emulate. 
• From a tactical perspective the DLF will give you holdup play on attack still, but he'll also look to move into channels like the AF which could be a potential issue with the pairing. 
• If you wanted to get away from something that's quite strong in the ME, maybe moving away from the AF would be a nice choice. They're super for the midblock and fit it perfectly, but they're also just really powerful in the ME. 

This is how I was setting up my own save w/a striker pairing in a midblock for reference. I've got the WBs w/mark tighter and am looking to funnel the opposition in the middle of the park where we can win the ball back between the strikers and CMs or in the deeper pressing trap where the HB is operating as an aggressive sweeper (the narrow width plays into that as well). This striker pairing/setup is very alla Athletico Madrid. I was also experimenting with a PF(a) + Tf(s) w/ a pressing profile on the TF, but didn't like how much of a magnet the TF was in transition. At the end of the day the PF(s) is a role I've just really enjoyed playing with and combines well w/ the cheeky overload on the right hand side.

• I do think I would win more games and score more goals if I just stuck two (or even three) AFs up top and left "work ball into the box" on for them. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cloud9

[mikcheck]

2 horas atrás, Cloud9 disse:

Imo it's more about intent/spirit with how you've set up your tactic. There are several things in the above tactic that look to me like choices taken intentionally because the AI will struggle to deal with them, rather than creating a football system they want to see played in game. That's common w/ a number of his tactics I've seen. 

• A striker pairing lets you create a complete striker, so it can be quite a nice choice when playing with more limited players. A double attack duty striker pairing is quite strong in the ME, which is a bit disproportion to how many top teams run them IRL. 

For your save I wouldn't worry  Sounds like you're trying to create your own style of play which is great.

• The Spanish style 4-4-2 looks to create a pressing trap in between the striker pairing and the CMs which you might be interested in. Unai Emery at Villa is running a more attacking variant and then of course there's the original Athletico Madrid style 4-4-2 you could check out. Villarael were another Spanish side running a pretty interesting/effective 4-4-2 you could look to emulate. 
• From a tactical perspective the DLF will give you holdup play on attack still, but he'll also look to move into channels like the AF which could be a potential issue with the pairing. 
• If you wanted to get away from something that's quite strong in the ME, maybe moving away from the AF would be a nice choice. They're super for the midblock and fit it perfectly, but they're also just really powerful in the ME. 

This is how I was setting up my own save w/a striker pairing in a midblock for reference. I've got the WBs w/mark tighter and am looking to funnel the opposition in the middle of the park where we can win the ball back between the strikers and CMs or in the deeper pressing trap where the HB is operating as an aggressive sweeper (the narrow width plays into that as well). This striker pairing/setup is very alla Athletico Madrid. I was also experimenting with a PF(a) + Tf(s) w/ a pressing profile on the TF, but didn't like how much of a magnet the TF was in transition. At the end of the day the PF(s) is a role I've just really enjoyed playing with and combines well w/ the cheeky overload on the right hand side.

• I do think I would win more games and score more goals if I just stuck two (or even three) AFs up top and left "work ball into the box" on for them. 

Thanks.

That looks like a nice and balanced setup. Did you have nice results and counter attacks with t?

Regarding AF, you think changing it to PF(a) would be ok?

 

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Thanks.

That looks like a nice and balanced setup. Did you have nice results and counter attacks with t?

Regarding AF, you think changing it to PF(a) would be ok?

 

Well so far so good  

A bit lucky, esp on the shootout, but the one goal conceded was from a penalty (maybe I'll need to get rid of the tackle harder instruction but it feels a bit more realistic).

The goal scored is a progressive pass from the BPD to the left wingback who links up w/the CAR around the byline before a little chip finding the MEZ(s) making a run into the box. The Goalkeeper not having a stellar day (6.9) and still being defensively resolute is a positive sign (mismatched xg isn't too much of a worry w/ a setup like this). I'm finding no counterpress or trigger press to be quite effective since your players keep their defensive shape and try to win the ball back when the opportunity is right. I've liked this setup as compared to a 4-4-2 since it's easier to adapt if you go behind early. 

PF(a) could be a nice like for like swap for the AF if there's a defensive pressing structure behind him. Also, Athletico Madrid Just beat Real Madrid today using a similar approach, would recommend checking it out if you're interested in the setup

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cloud9

[Lemon_Head]

On 24/09/2023 at 12:16, Cloud9 said:

Imo it's more about intent/spirit with how you've set up your tactic. There are several things in the above tactic that look to me like choices taken intentionally because the AI will struggle to deal with them, rather than creating a football system they want to see played in game. That's common w/ a number of his tactics I've seen. 

• A striker pairing lets you create a complete striker, so it can be quite a nice choice when playing with more limited players. A double attack duty striker pairing is quite strong in the ME, which is a bit disproportion to how many top teams run them IRL. 

For your save I wouldn't worry  Sounds like you're trying to create your own style of play which is great.

• The Spanish style 4-4-2 looks to create a pressing trap in between the striker pairing and the CMs which you might be interested in. Unai Emery at Villa is running a more attacking variant and then of course there's the original Athletico Madrid style 4-4-2 you could check out. Villarael were another Spanish side running a pretty interesting/effective 4-4-2 you could look to emulate. 
• From a tactical perspective the DLF will give you holdup play on attack still, but he'll also look to move into channels like the AF which could be a potential issue with the pairing. 
• If you wanted to get away from something that's quite strong in the ME, maybe moving away from the AF would be a nice choice. They're super for the midblock and fit it perfectly, but they're also just really powerful in the ME. 

This is how I was setting up my own save w/a striker pairing in a midblock for reference. I've got the WBs w/mark tighter and am looking to funnel the opposition in the middle of the park where we can win the ball back between the strikers and CMs or in the deeper pressing trap where the HB is operating as an aggressive sweeper (the narrow width plays into that as well). This striker pairing/setup is very alla Athletico Madrid. I was also experimenting with a PF(a) + Tf(s) w/ a pressing profile on the TF, but didn't like how much of a magnet the TF was in transition. At the end of the day the PF(s) is a role I've just really enjoyed playing with and combines well w/ the cheeky overload on the right hand side.

• I do think I would win more games and score more goals if I just stuck two (or even three) AFs up top and left "work ball into the box" on for them. 

Just wondering how would you make a pressing trap between the striker and the CM in FM like how Athletico does?

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, Lemon_Head said:

Just wondering how would you make a pressing trap between the striker and the CM in FM like how Athletico does?

So IRL I would say athletico have two key pressing traps, a wide and then the central one. The wide one I've ignored for FM purposes, where the striker and wide man will harry a player together (using the side of the pitch as a third defender), while relying on tall defenders height (Godin is the iconic example) to deal with any potential crosses. In the ME there's very little punishment for the opposition playing wide, so I've only opted to focus the defence around the central pressing trap. 

In terms of executing that central pressing trap:

• Opposition Instruction
  • Show onto foot is a pressing instruction, you'll want to show their wingback going forward and their wide attackers onto the inside foot
• Team Instructions
  • Trap Inside
    • Helps to funnel the ball into the trap
  • Stop crosses
    • Helps to tell the the wingback/wideman to go to the danger
  • Narrow/Fairly Narrow width
    • Compact lineups make you difficult to play through / help you win the ball back
  • No Counter Press, Standard or Less Often Trigger Press
    • You want to keep your banks of defenders organized and intact, trying to win the ball back early isn't good for the trap. 
• Player Instructions
  • Tell your wingbacks (5-3-2) or wide midfielders (4-4-2) to "mark tighter," this will help push the oppositon into that gap between the strikers and CMs
• Attributes/roles
  • This is quite important for any defensive system (attributes esp), maybe more so than the above tactical instructions. 
  • On the striker partnership I like a Poacher with + trigger press and a PF(s) (I think those mimic Athleticos striker partnerships best, but other combinations would work fine w/the right attributes).
  • Midfielders will need to have strong defensive responsibilities, aggression/teamwork are key attributes but you'll want them to be well rounded. On roles, I would go with two CM(s) who will have that little bit higher start position to help with the press and then playing around with their PIs a little. You might want one to hold and one to trigger press a little bit more but I would see how it plays as is and make changes from there. 
  • Wingbacks/wide midfielders (depending on formation) need to be strong athletes full of running. Roles for the wide players are a little bit more flexible. 

Once the opposition are pushed inside by the wide players, the striker bank and midfielders create a box trap where the ball is more easily recovered w/ a coordinated effort. You need to have a no passengers system for these coordinated team presses.

It's a particuarily effective approach against stronger opposite who will look to bring the game to you. You can nullify a lot of the attacking threat, particularly from quick wide players and through balls. My system above is the more reflective of the modern athletico approach, and similarly requires higher quality players in the HB/WB roles. The old athletico 4-4-2 is much easier to pull off with lower quality players where the two distinct banks mean you don't have isolated position. Defensively I've preferred the 5 at the back system as 3 central defenders helps me prevent my lower quality defenders getting stuck in personal battles vs top tier players. Mid block vs Low block is up to you, as athletico tend to switch back and forth within a match. As always when you set up an anti football tactic, make sure you're still a threat to the opposition at all times or you'll be in trouble (high tempo, counter, + pass into space are good general fixes for this).

Anyways, that's my take on it  Tackle harder and time wasting are Athletico Madrid staples you might want to include as well to feel thematic, but aren't necessary to pull off the central pressing trap. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Cloud9