Real Managers Instead of AI Managers

[srvngrc]

I don't know if this idea has been discussed before. If yes please accept my apologies. 
 

As you know, we play against AI in FM and things can get easy after a while. AI managers can't be competitive enough. But what if we played the game against real opponents, wouldn't it be more fun and challenging? I have an idea of what it could be like. Millions of real players are making individual careers in FM simultaneously. But to make multiplayer online careers, everyone has to take their time and be online at the same time, and it's not easy. 

But can't AI imitate other FM players? I think it's not too hard to set. For example, when you start a career with Arsenal, AI can copy the tactics and transfer moves of FM players who have had successful City and Liverpool careers elsewhere in the world. Thus, a kind of offline multiplayer career will be possible. 
Some of you may like this idea or some of you may seem ridiculous. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 minutes ago, srvngrc said:

Some of you may like this idea or some of you may seem ridiculous. 

I know what side of the fence I'm on for this. 

[gunner86]

The idea is not without precedent, this is essentially what Forza did or do (no idea if it’s still a thing) with drivatars. It essentially learns how players play and mimics that.

but isn’t that just essentially a form of AI? It’s basically machine learning. It can’t just record all the actions of a player and repeat them in your save. For example, in my save, I will look at strikers, I decide my first choice striker wants too much wages so I work down my list. But maybe my first choice midfielder is affordable so I buy him. But what if, in your save, you also want that midfielder, and you offer more than I would, so he goes to you? What happens then, the game doesn’t have my second choice recorded as I never made a bid for another player, and I have 10 on my shortlist.

Essentially, what you’re asking for is what the game is constantly working towards, improved AI. Which they have promised as a headline feature this year. How far that goes remains to be seen.

It’s probably also worth noting that in a lot of cases, what the game records from other players might not be the desired outputs in the first place. I foresee a game world in which every single AI manager fills their team with the best young talent and no one over 30 ever gets a game. Hyperbole? Perhaps. But is that really any better than what we have now? I would say not so much.

[diLLa88]

46 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

The idea is not without precedent, this is essentially what Forza did or do (no idea if it’s still a thing) with drivatars. It essentially learns how players play and mimics that.

but isn’t that just essentially a form of AI? It’s basically machine learning. It can’t just record all the actions of a player and repeat them in your save. For example, in my save, I will look at strikers, I decide my first choice striker wants too much wages so I work down my list. But maybe my first choice midfielder is affordable so I buy him. But what if, in your save, you also want that midfielder, and you offer more than I would, so he goes to you? What happens then, the game doesn’t have my second choice recorded as I never made a bid for another player, and I have 10 on my shortlist.

Essentially, what you’re asking for is what the game is constantly working towards, improved AI. Which they have promised as a headline feature this year. How far that goes remains to be seen.

It’s probably also worth noting that in a lot of cases, what the game records from other players might not be the desired outputs in the first place. I foresee a game world in which every single AI manager fills their team with the best young talent and no one over 30 ever gets a game. Hyperbole? Perhaps. But is that really any better than what we have now? I would say not so much.

You could always balance around it and program that AI does not for 100% follow all the real life data points. It could however use it for inspiration in some way, especially on the tactical side.

[gunner86]

1 hour ago, diLLa88 said:

You could always balance around it and program that AI does not for 100% follow all the real life data points. It could however use it for inspiration in some way, especially on the tactical side.

Yeah. I get that, but do we really want the AI learning ME exploits? I’d rather the AI learned off the user in the game and also itself. If Everton start to become successful, I’d want to see other teams try and copy Sean Dyche, or even have the AI try and copy me, and my tactical approach, rather than just sticking to the AI managers preference.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, I’m just seeing a few pitfalls.

[busngabb]

40 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

Yeah. I get that, but do we really want the AI learning ME exploits? I’d rather the AI learned off the user in the game and also itself. If Everton start to become successful, I’d want to see other teams try and copy Sean Dyche, or even have the AI try and copy me, and my tactical approach, rather than just sticking to the AI managers preference.

I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, I’m just seeing a few pitfalls.

THIS. It's a massive stretch already to think the game doesn't just provide the outcome it wants to. Giving AI the ability to learn how to be successful by data mining ME exploits would likely mean you find the game horrendously difficult or horiffically annoying to play. If the AI learned your tactics and how other managers beat them, it'd be so frustrating to play.

As you say, where AI might be useful in the game might be to have it simulate trends in the game. For example tiki-taka under Pep, this daft tactic of moving a fullback who can't defend into midfield (So he's less to blame when you concede on the break because he simply can't defend, Klopp, that's all it's for, I see you) etc. Having one up front instead of two is another one. The AI should perhaps migrate towards things the successful managers in the save are doing. Not copy them directly, but be influenced by them. So, for example if the player is the most successful manager and uses a bizarre asymmetrical formation with no strikers, you might see more and more AI teams using strikerless formations or asymmetry. They could even then have AI generated media articles about this development in modern football, with quotes from Neil Warnock saying it's trash.

[Mars_Blackmon]

8 hours ago, srvngrc said:

I don't know if this idea has been discussed before. If yes please accept my apologies. 
 

As you know, we play against AI in FM and things can get easy after a while. AI managers can't be competitive enough. But what if we played the game against real opponents, wouldn't it be more fun and challenging? I have an idea of what it could be like. Millions of real players are making individual careers in FM simultaneously. But to make multiplayer online careers, everyone has to take their time and be online at the same time, and it's not easy. 

But can't AI imitate other FM players? I think it's not too hard to set. For example, when you start a career with Arsenal, AI can copy the tactics and transfer moves of FM players who have had successful City and Liverpool careers elsewhere in the world. Thus, a kind of offline multiplayer career will be possible. 
Some of you may like this idea or some of you may seem ridiculous. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

Machine learning is a subset of AI, and considering this has been somewhat done with games before, it is not out of the realm of possibility. However, if this would ever become a thing with games, then I would probably be done because I stay away from online games, especially with sports, because of the "unrealistic" aspect that comes with it.

LOL, if the AI in FM already spam 4-2-3-1, I can imagine playing against the AI that all spam the same OP tactics.  

Learning from a user base can still create undesirable results. However, if we scrum the data from actual Football games and transfer patterns, then we are talking!

Ironically, this is somewhat similar to what they are doing with kinematics and motion matching for animation.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[srvngrc]

Of course, I know that FM uses some form of machine learning. However, until this time, the point where AI has come in FM has not been good enough to compete with us.

Actually I'm talking about a primitive type of machine learning. To increase the difficulty level, a few teams copy tactics and some transfer moves. That's all. Not all teams, of course. If all the teams did this, the game would become unplayable. But it can be fun if 3-4 teams (or difficulty levels can be chosen) do this. 

[andu1]

No more 4-2-3-1 please... AI already uses this formation much more than it's used IRL..

[Kickballz]

Yeah, I think a few members have nailed why this would be problematic.

It sounds great in principle, but very quickly it will create something that nobody will enjoy. Everything will boil down to the most efficient system, and the fun will be sucked dry.

 

[Kickballz]

3 hours ago, srvngrc said:

Of course, I know that FM uses some form of machine learning. However, until this time, the point where AI has come in FM has not been good enough to compete with us.

Actually I'm talking about a primitive type of machine learning. To increase the difficulty level, a few teams copy tactics and some transfer moves. That's all. Not all teams, of course. If all the teams did this, the game would become unplayable. But it can be fun if 3-4 teams (or difficulty levels can be chosen) do this. 

It really isn't machine learning btw. The AI in football manager doesn't come close to the concept of machine learning.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Kickballz

[gunner86]

 

5 hours ago, srvngrc said:

Of course, I know that FM uses some form of machine learning. However, until this time, the point where AI has come in FM has not been good enough to compete with us.

Actually I'm talking about a primitive type of machine learning. To increase the difficulty level, a few teams copy tactics and some transfer moves. That's all. Not all teams, of course. If all the teams did this, the game would become unplayable. But it can be fun if 3-4 teams (or difficulty levels can be chosen) do this. 

I wonder if there would be some legs in being able to “import” a friend’s play style into a game. So that it works a bit like a network game, but without having to be online at the same time, rather than just taking random players. That way players could play there own game for a while, “export” their manager and you could drop it into your game.

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, Kickballz said:

It really isn't machine learning btw. The AI in football manager doesn't come close to the concept of machine learning.

And nor does the OP's proposal of gathering data on which exploit formations overachieve the most, and which players are the best that can be bought within budget!

 

at the end of the day, the aim of FM is to simulate the football world, albeit a version of it you can participate in and probably overachieve in.

Okay, I could just about imagine Pep lining up with something weird and asymmetric off a Korean forum, but Klopp playing knap-352 and running a loan farm and Arteta signing Lukaku and playing TargetmanExploit feels less like the challenge of the real world, not more. Not sure whose tactics Frank Lampard is supposed to be copying either because it's not all about Pep and Klopp...

 

[Dotsworthy]

On 03/10/2023 at 19:41, srvngrc said:

I don't know if this idea has been discussed before. If yes please accept my apologies. 
 

As you know, we play against AI in FM and things can get easy after a while. AI managers can't be competitive enough. But what if we played the game against real opponents, wouldn't it be more fun and challenging? I have an idea of what it could be like. Millions of real players are making individual careers in FM simultaneously. But to make multiplayer online careers, everyone has to take their time and be online at the same time, and it's not easy. 

But can't AI imitate other FM players? I think it's not too hard to set. For example, when you start a career with Arsenal, AI can copy the tactics and transfer moves of FM players who have had successful City and Liverpool careers elsewhere in the world. Thus, a kind of offline multiplayer career will be possible. 
Some of you may like this idea or some of you may seem ridiculous. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

Transfers would be unsustainable once newgens become prominent (4-5 years in.), which is the exact time I would argue the AI begins to struggle against the human. Hopefully the new AI squad building resolves these issues.

SI could certainly look at the tactical meta and adapt the AI in updates. I think that would add some challenge but then you run into the danger of every team in the league playing 4-2-3-1 gegenpress. I would love to see tactical trends implemented into football manager though. Fluid Counter becomes the popular style, and then other teams adapt to compensate, then as a result gegenpress becomes more popular, or the 4-4-2, and so on. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Dotsworthy