Lifeless Offence (433 and 4231)

[AndrikoDS]

Hi all,

I've taken the job midseason, and am struggling in the VN to get these tactics to quite work. The team is supposed to be favorites to win (mid table when I took over), and the problem is that the offence is lifeless, not taking many chances and fluffing them when they get good ones, and also generally have the worse for possession. Mostly they scrape by winning 1-0.

Generally it feels like the opposition are sitting back and shutting down the game. Part of it is I think that the 'goalscorers' are not quite up to it, but if they were taking more shots I don't think that would be a problem.

I've tinkered with it, but nothing seems to quite work. Maybe the F9 is a bit too fancy, but he doesn't do much when a DLF either. In both tactics the idea is that the STC drops back (he's better at passing than shooting) and opens up the space for the IF and BBM in the 433, and the SS in the 4231, but this doesn't really seem to be working.

Any help would be great, I've plundered the 433 and 4231 threads and think I have a tactic that makes sense, and players who should be up to the roles, so am not really sure what I might be missing.

4231

Quote

433

Quote

 

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, AndrikoDS said:

Hi all,

I've taken the job midseason, and am struggling in the VN to get these tactics to quite work. The team is supposed to be favorites to win (mid table when I took over), and the problem is that the offence is lifeless, not taking many chances and fluffing them when they get good ones, and also generally have the worse for possession. Mostly they scrape by winning 1-0.

Generally it feels like the opposition are sitting back and shutting down the game. Part of it is I think that the 'goalscorers' are not quite up to it, but if they were taking more shots I don't think that would be a problem.

I've tinkered with it, but nothing seems to quite work. Maybe the F9 is a bit too fancy, but he doesn't do much when a DLF either. In both tactics the idea is that the STC drops back (he's better at passing than shooting) and opens up the space for the IF and BBM in the 433, and the SS in the 4231, but this doesn't really seem to be working.

Any help would be great, I've plundered the 433 and 4231 threads and think I have a tactic that makes sense, and players who should be up to the roles, so am not really sure what I might be missing.

4231

433

 

Like the F9 + SS combo on your 4-2-3-1. However, the F9 is the only true goal threat in your lineup. Just moving the IW to attack w/ a WB(s) behind would go a long way to addressing that issue.

• RPM could also be an issue, a lot of your possession will end up around them and if they're not a complete player that can lead to a one dimensional/ineffective attack. Off the ball + decisions + playmaking + stamina running are important for a RPM. 

The 4-3-3 looks more balanced, but could also use another attack role in there. I'd go with IF(s) + IW(a) for that setup. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Cloud9

[AndrikoDS]

Thanks Cloud9 - I always thought the Shadow Striker was a more offensive role, but it seems not. I think I don't really understand how the F9 and SS combo is supposed to work, nor how to draw defenders away with roaming strikers.

I found that changing the DLF into a AT(a) in both formations, and the SS into an AM(a) spiced things up a bit, as well as upping the tempo, but the players still fluff all their good chances and generally seem quite bad at picking up lose balls (but very good at hitting the posts).

The RPM player is quite good, which is why I chose the role, and he does seem to be everywhere as I want him to, but as a BBM he is not quite right. I think a CM(a) might be better, but I'll see.

Thanks for the tips, I will continue to experiment!

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, AndrikoDS said:

Thanks Cloud9 - I always thought the Shadow Striker was a more offensive role, but it seems not. I think I don't really understand how the F9 and SS combo is supposed to work, nor how to draw defenders away with roaming strikers.

I found that changing the DLF into a AT(a) in both formations, and the SS into an AM(a) spiced things up a bit, as well as upping the tempo, but the players still fluff all their good chances and generally seem quite bad at picking up lose balls (but very good at hitting the posts).

The RPM player is quite good, which is why I chose the role, and he does seem to be everywhere as I want him to, but as a BBM he is not quite right. I think a CM(a) might be better, but I'll see.

Thanks for the tips, I will continue to experiment!

On F9 vs DLF

• Big difference in the two is that the F9 doesn't hold up the ball, and therefore doesn't need to be physically strong like the DLF. 
• F9 is basically a playmaker who starts in the 9 position and drags opposition players out of their defensive shape with his movement. 

Shadow Striker

• He's a goalscorer from deep, but the tactic is relying on him as a sole goal threat which is a big ask for him even with his "ideal" pairing with a F9. IW(s) and W(s) are pretty facilitating roles that won't offer too many goals themselves.
• On their pairing with F9's they will basically swap positions in play, with the SS attacking the space the F9 has created when they drop deep and can then be played in on goal. Low tempo + stretching the pitch could be nice for an inside/penetrating run like this. The SS run can be difficult for the center backs to pick up since it's coming from deep on those settings. 
  • More attacking wide roles can help to pin/pull the opposition fullbacks wide, generating that space in the middle where the SS is looking to make his run. Two supporting winger roles is a lack of a threat/pushback to the opposition side I think. 
• Does he have good off the ball and composure? Those are pretty key attributes for a goal scorer like that. 
  • Also not sure if this applies to a SS since I don't play with them too often, but short poachers are terrible and the SS is operating in a similar area. That might be something to take into account as well. 

Hope that helps  if the players are missing a lot of shots you could try to add "work ball into the box" on as a TI. That can prevent them from taking low % shots. It's particularly effective when you've got a player looking to poach the penalty area, which is where the shadow striker is looking to attack. 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Cloud9

[AndrikoDS]

Great, thanks Cloud, especially on the difference between an F9 and DLF. I will go over it all when I get the chance and see if I can't wring a bit more out of them!

 

A

[Fraser]

I  agree that "Work ball into the box" is handy for getting better quality chances.

I notice you are playing a high line and pressing a lot, so maybe go with "Pass into Space" and a higher tempo when you have the ball as that will mean passes are player quicker and into more dangerous areas. 

Selecting Counter and Counter-Press in transition will help win the ball back quickly and get the ball forward while they are out of shape. 

Using an intense press/ press more instruction while defending will get your attackers pressuring their defenders much earlier (currently you are playing a high press but not triggering it too often)

[AndrikoDS]

Thanks Fraser.

I do have the advanced players in individual instructions to press, but have found over the years that having a high press over all just wears everyone out whilst the AI just pass the ball around them, and I think similar with Counter-press.

I've also found 'work ball into box' to be a mixed bag, and doesn't seem to make too much difference - some players still try the long shot, as it's in their role description. Usually player instructions work better here also.

However, the high press line is something I think might be hindering me - I've tried a game with mid block, and it seemed to give some life to the offence, and what maybe happening is the central striker gets too isolated from the rest of the team, so keeping the line of engagement a bit further back might better connect everyone.

It's only one game, however, and I'm not at home to keep experimenting at the moment! But I have really struggled to get anything from the central striker on FM23, with previous teams also, so I am doing something consistently wrong in this area. Usually they have no involvement in the game and end on a 6.2 rating with several offsides.

[Fraser]

3 hours ago, AndrikoDS said:

I do have the advanced players in individual instructions to press, but have found over the years that having a high press over all just wears everyone out whilst the AI just pass the ball around them, and I think similar with Counter-press.

In theory, Counter-press shouldn't use quite as much energy as high press or as much as intense pressing will. Counter-press is an instruction to try to win the ball back very quickly and, if you don't then players fall to their defensive shape. 

Someone with more experience than me might be able to confirm, but I would think that something like a counter-press transition but with a mid block and standard pressing when defending would have your players try to win the ball back quickly but also drop back into shape quickly if they fail. 

Jurgen Klopp thinks the counter-press is the best 'playmaker' in football, as space opens up when you win the ball back and the opposition is out of position.

[AndrikoDS]

Thanks Fraser, I will give it a go and see what happens.

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Fraser said:

In theory, Counter-press shouldn't use quite as much energy as high press or as much as intense pressing will. Counter-press is an instruction to try to win the ball back very quickly and, if you don't then players fall to their defensive shape. 

Someone with more experience than me might be able to confirm, but I would think that something like a counter-press transition but with a mid block and standard pressing when defending would have your players try to win the ball back quickly but also drop back into shape quickly if they fail. 

Jurgen Klopp thinks the counter-press is the best 'playmaker' in football, as space opens up when you win the ball back and the opposition is out of position.

Counter press on a midblock can be a little tricky. You're asking your players to go win the ball more, which can see them beaten frequently and pulled out of their defensive shape. You can concede goals for fun using this, esp against high quality opposition w/quick players who can dribble.

I do use it on a midblock counter, but only in 10-15minute sections of the match where we're looking to take a few more risks (around match momentum, opposition morale etc.). It makes you a lot less defensively resolute, as compared to an approach that waits for the right moment to win the ball back.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Cloud9