FM24 Any way to "control" the set of UID's used?

[rristola]

I have use the Editor ONLY to re-validate some mods. Otherwise my knowledge of it is less than weak.

 

I love lower leagues, and therefore I have quite a lot of added league files.

When I'm starting a new game save, as far as I know, it is then that the vanilla game allocates UID's to everything needing it.

Somehow some mods try to use same UID's, and then the vanilla game has to re-organize those UID's. Is this correct?

Is there a way to "order" mod to use a certain set of UID's? 

If the loading order has any effect, then - how to change loading order of mods?  (Alphabetically - so, change name?)

 

Do you know, if there is any way to be sure to use unique set of UID's in your own mod?

Why - I have tried to make added graphics for a league mod, and what works for me and all my league mods, won't work for the others trying to use my graphics packs. And that would mean a lot of extra work.

 

Any info on allocating UID's is helpful. Is it totally automatic (by the Editor), or are there ways to change it.

 

Thanks.

[Wolf_pd]

3 hours ago, rristola said:

I have use the Editor ONLY to re-validate some mods. Otherwise my knowledge of it is less than weak.

 

I love lower leagues, and therefore I have quite a lot of added league files.

When I'm starting a new game save, as far as I know, it is then that the vanilla game allocates UID's to everything needing it.

Somehow some mods try to use same UID's, and then the vanilla game has to re-organize those UID's. Is this correct?

Is there a way to "order" mod to use a certain set of UID's? 

If the loading order has any effect, then - how to change loading order of mods?  (Alphabetically - so, change name?)

Do you know, if there is any way to be sure to use unique set of UID's in your own mod?

Why - I have tried to make added graphics for a league mod, and what works for me and all my league mods, won't work for the others trying to use my graphics packs. And that would mean a lot of extra work.

Any info on allocating UID's is helpful. Is it totally automatic (by the Editor), or are there ways to change it.

Thanks.

Alphabetically or numerical is the way to go. There is no way to get unique UIDs other than keep everything in one big file. Depending on what you are exactly doing, that can be done (data file only) or is not possible (multiple national rules).

[rristola]

17 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

Alphabetically or numerical is the way to go.

This might help me enough.

 

Thanks.

[magicmastermind124]

It's been a while but I am almost certain there is a way to specify the unique ID using xml. It involves changing the record type from db_large_id to db_unique_id iirc.

I need to test this out though, so I may be incorrect.  It's been a while since I've delved into the editor.

As for the question of ID's and how they are assigned typically- the editor has a starting range of what unique ID to apply, and for each new record in the database, it increments by one.  So it's all determined by the order of files and the order the records were created in those files.  But using the above method I described could get around this and may help those creating graphics for lower leagues etc.

Edited October 25, 2023 by magicmastermind124

[magicmastermind124]

I was slightly mistaken - it isn't possible to specify the unique ID's in the way I specified above so it uses a specific ID in game.  However, using the above method, you would be able to use your own unique ID's inside excel files and know which records you are referring to.  Then, when the file is loaded, the game will apply its own unique ID's to the records that have been created, but keep any amendments to the record using the ID's you specified in a file, preventing issues such as clashing ID's when combining multiple editor files into one.

I'm happy to explain that further if anyone needs clarification.  It's a shame it doesn't specifically change the unique ID in game.

Edited October 25, 2023 by magicmastermind124

[rristola]

2 hours ago, magicmastermind124 said:

determined by the order of files

I will first try "following" this rule. Files can always be re-named...

BTW, if SI wants (and might be counting on) that players make mods correcting rules, and adding leagues and graphics, then it's quite odd that there can't be "dependencies" between mods. Si should think about this.

 

Thanks. I will contact you if needed.

[magicmastermind124]

8 hours ago, rristola said:

BTW, if SI wants (and might be counting on) that players make mods correcting rules, and adding leagues and graphics, then it's quite odd that there can't be "dependencies" between mods. Si should think about this.

This is a very good point - it wouldn't be difficult to have a setting in the editor that specified your own ID ranges to be used which could ensure compatibility with other files out of the box.

It would be preferable to specify unique ID's but I understand that with editor files being amendments to a database that this is likely not a reality that we will see.

[forameuss]

11 hours ago, magicmastermind124 said:

I was slightly mistaken - it isn't possible to specify the unique ID's in the way I specified above so it uses a specific ID in game.  However, using the above method, you would be able to use your own unique ID's inside excel files and know which records you are referring to.  Then, when the file is loaded, the game will apply its own unique ID's to the records that have been created, but keep any amendments to the record using the ID's you specified in a file, preventing issues such as clashing ID's when combining multiple editor files into one.

I'm happy to explain that further if anyone needs clarification.  It's a shame it doesn't specifically change the unique ID in game.

I've been doing some work into this kind of stuff and found that you can kind of avoid any of the editor specific IDs entirely.  Kind of.  How I did it was to create a huge number of new objects in the editor, export all that, then pull out all the unique IDs that the editor itself created.  Then use them as the unique IDs I use.  Then I think what you say is largely correct, and any other IDs the editor creates (because hoooooo boy, does it leave creating multiple IDs that mean nothing to anything else) just stay internal.

[magicmastermind124]

56 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I've been doing some work into this kind of stuff and found that you can kind of avoid any of the editor specific IDs entirely.  Kind of.  How I did it was to create a huge number of new objects in the editor, export all that, then pull out all the unique IDs that the editor itself created.  Then use them as the unique IDs I use.  Then I think what you say is largely correct, and any other IDs the editor creates (because hoooooo boy, does it leave creating multiple IDs that mean nothing to anything else) just stay internal.

That's a clever way of doing it, surely after having had an editor since FM10 that allows custom leagues you'd think there would be a way of setting them manually without such workarounds.  Although I don't think it's something I have ever seen requested.

[rristola]

4 hours ago, forameuss said:

I've been doing some work into this kind of stuff

5 hours ago, magicmastermind124 said:

editor files being amendments to a database

Wouldn't it be, in fact, quite simple to re-organize building a new game save with added editor files? Just the same way 'vanilla' game does it now. With a little change.

 

My idea is that every modder would have his/her own ID and the same way all his/her mods would have own ID's. Or those two combined, whatever.

Every new mod would use its own set of UID's. BUT, only for new data presented in that mod. All existing data (in vanilla game) would, of course, use their vanilla UID's.

The same with borrowing from another mod. There would have to be dependency (have to name mods used), and then it would be OK to use UID's from that mod.

 

Graphics files are a bit different. Only thing those files need is a mention which mod files are compatible. Like, 'this added graphics file is for modders XXX mods YYY and YYZ". And this is needed ONLY in mod-to-mod dependencies.

Graphics for vanilla items are fine even now. Those dependencies could also be added - might need some re-naming.

 

When the 'vanilla' game is building a new game save, it will have to build its own set of UID's (containig all needed data bits). That would need only a bit more complex "building engine" to secure enough UID's to everything. And, if there is a conflict, then NO new save!

This way it would not slow down playing the game, because the set of UID's (of a new save) is built only once.

 

I'm not sure, if this would work. But this can't be an impossible mission. And, because you are familiar with the Editor, you can move this discussion into Requests, if you wish.

[forameuss]

6 hours ago, magicmastermind124 said:

That's a clever way of doing it, surely after having had an editor since FM10 that allows custom leagues you'd think there would be a way of setting them manually without such workarounds.  Although I don't think it's something I have ever seen requested.

I guess the idea is to make it as robust as possible.  Allowing you to change the IDs probably brings a lot of risk of things just getting completely broken up, but then given the amount of risk any edit already has, and how little they seem to care about making the editor itself much better, does seem like a weird one.  I guess, ultimately, the vast majority of uses of the editor have no concern over the IDs for the most part, so I can see why the attitude of "it just works" is fine here.

1 hour ago, rristola said:

Wouldn't it be, in fact, quite simple to re-organize building a new game save with added editor files? Just the same way 'vanilla' game does it now. With a little change.

 

My idea is that every modder would have his/her own ID and the same way all his/her mods would have own ID's. Or those two combined, whatever.

Every new mod would use its own set of UID's. BUT, only for new data presented in that mod. All existing data (in vanilla game) would, of course, use their vanilla UID's.

The same with borrowing from another mod. There would have to be dependency (have to name mods used), and then it would be OK to use UID's from that mod.

 

Graphics files are a bit different. Only thing those files need is a mention which mod files are compatible. Like, 'this added graphics file is for modders XXX mods YYY and YYZ". And this is needed ONLY in mod-to-mod dependencies.

Graphics for vanilla items are fine even now. Those dependencies could also be added - might need some re-naming.

 

When the 'vanilla' game is building a new game save, it will have to build its own set of UID's (containig all needed data bits). That would need only a bit more complex "building engine" to secure enough UID's to everything. And, if there is a conflict, then NO new save!

This way it would not slow down playing the game, because the set of UID's (of a new save) is built only once.

 

I'm not sure, if this would work. But this can't be an impossible mission. And, because you are familiar with the Editor, you can move this discussion into Requests, if you wish.

So if I'm understanding it right, you want SI to portion parts of the database out ID-wise to every single person who wants to make an editor file so that there are no collisions?  Given they don't seem that interested in just making the editor easier to use for individual users, I doubt they'd be interested in putting in extra complexity just to satisfy a very small number of those users.

As said earlier, the vast majority of use cases don't care about IDs apart from collisions.  And you can't really expect those collisions to be the responsibility of the owner of the editor file

[rristola]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

I can see why the attitude of "it just works" is fine here.

It could be so. But, if SI wants us, players, to make different skins, make more accurate "realism" mods, add leagues and add a lot of graphics, then it might want us to find a nice easy way to compile a new game save. With problems solved.

My opinions has been that SI would love FM to have more leagues, and also lower leagues, in it. It just can't rely on that they can get all needed scouting done (costs!).

 

Little reminder, I haven't done anything creative with the Editor, I just don't know it.

That one in mind - I just realized that I pretty much wrote how those new saves are created nowadays. With a wish there could be dependencies.

Yeah, not gonna work.

I will leave this issue to SI.

[forameuss]

19 minutes ago, rristola said:

It could be so. But, if SI wants us, players, to make different skins, make more accurate "realism" mods, add leagues and add a lot of graphics, then it might want us to find a nice easy way to compile a new game save. With problems solved.

My opinions has been that SI would love FM to have more leagues, and also lower leagues, in it. It just can't rely on that they can get all needed scouting done (costs!).

 

Little reminder, I haven't done anything creative with the Editor, I just don't know it.

That one in mind - I just realized that I pretty much wrote how those new saves are created nowadays. With a wish there could be dependencies.

Yeah, not gonna work.

I will leave this issue to SI.

To be fair, none of what you said is at all impossible with the way things currently are.  That's kind of my point.  Your main issue seems to be collision of IDs, which isn't going to be a huge issue for your average user.  I'm pretty sure there's already something in the way the editor chooses IDs that means they aren't sequential (and every object seems to have several different IDs, probably to dilute the issue further).  What they have now is often awkward, not the best to use for very large edits, but it's definitely good enough to make extremely detailed league edits, and skins, and "realism" mods.  

[rristola]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

collision of IDs, which isn't going to be a huge issue for your average user

IF, and again, IF the player community would like to take FM into a bit lower in playable football tiers, then it might be.

Explaining, I don't know how "deep" data levels go in each country, but what if players would like to start from regional levels? From the home village's team? Are all cities, villages, stadiums, players, staff members,... so, all data items already in the vanilla database? Well, differs country by country...

If not, then those data items would have to be added using mods. Every different set of mods would end up with a different game save UIDs... And graphics partially mixed up.    And, I think this happened to me and mods I used...

Edited (added) - And because there is this option to use added players and staff, then it would be enough just to create the correct league structure, and add the graphics...

 

Well, I don't know how many players want to play other than the main leagues, so... this is for SI to solve.

 

Thanks for your comments.

Edited October 26, 2023 by rristola