Suggestions for my 4231

[Mik_Fe]

hi all!

I'm trying to create a 4231 with my football principles.

I don't think I'm very far from the final goal but I still see something that isn't working.

Too many goals conceded and sometimes little ball possession, which is the basis of my philosophy..

The idea of the game is a mix between the game of Moyes and that of De Zerbi, dominant ball possession with AP who should function as an assistman, the DLP as a game creator and the wingers both finishers and assistmen, DM cover the creator moment of DLP and FB assist all time the offensive phase.

I wanted to ask you if you have any tactical suggestions for this 4231 or if there are instructions (PI or TI) for you that are incorrect.

This is the tactic:

 

This is Players instructions:

 

I have read the 4231 DM thread in this forum a lot but I can't find a solution.

 

If anyone could help me??

PS: I want to create a 4231 non especially for one club, but for the idea.. i can use this tactic with Man Utd, Blackburn, Bayern Monaco etc etc.. i would to create a tactical idea non plug and play!

Thanks in advance for your tips!

Edited November 4, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Prolix]

Too many player instructions, team/player instructions create a style that is too rigid/slow/predictable, as well as disjointed when defending.

Simplify, simplify, simplify.  

Edited November 5, 2023 by Prolix

[Mik_Fe]

Ok Prolix... Thanks for your tips, but if you tell me in this way, i don't understaind what do you mean...

Which are instruction that do the defensive phase disjointed and the offensive phase slow and predictable?

Please tell me in which way this thins it could be modify...

Thanks

[Mik_Fe]

Nothing answers... i think nothing tips!?!?!

[Prolix]

The combination of instructions leaves your players with limited options.

Buildup play from the back will be short (Play Out of Defence) and without urgency (Slightly Lower Tempo), unless a BPD chooses to take a risky option (Take More Risks). Your midfielders will remain very stationary (both on Hold Position) and only the DLP is instructed to get the ball forward. When you win possession your team is told to stay stationary as well (Hold Shape).

Your front players are discouraged from crossing or shooting by either PIs or the Work Ball Into Box instruction. Their only options are to complete a short pass, probably while slowing your tempo even more while they look for underlaps on both sides (which players will be making underlapping runs with the FBs told to position and run wide and the DMs holding position?), dribbling (Dribble More), or forcing a risky ball (Take More Risks). Even your center forward is discouraged from shooting. I struggle to see these players doing much more than recycling the ball over and over and clogging up the center of the pitch.

When defending, it seems that your team is too much divided into a top half and bottom half. The four forward players are told to press a lot and prevent the opponent from playing out from the back, but the defenders/DMs are told to drop off from their high line. I struggle to see how they will defend as a team coherently.

Some of these instructions can of course be used to build a style of play, but my impression is that your players have too few options because of how restricting their instructions are.

[AndrikoDS]

Prolix has given a much more indepth answer than I could. I will add though, that in my experience the few instructions the better. If you need to add individual instructions (and so many of them) to all your players, than you've given them the wrong roles, and similar applies for the team instructions.

[Mik_Fe]

3 ore fa, AndrikoDS ha scritto:

Prolix ha dato una risposta molto più approfondita di quanto avrei potuto. Aggiungo però che, secondo la mia esperienza, poche istruzioni sono, meglio è. Se hai bisogno di aggiungere istruzioni individuali (e così tante) a tutti i tuoi giocatori, allora hai dato loro i ruoli sbagliati, e lo stesso vale per le istruzioni della squadra.

Thanks for your tips AndrikoDS, i change some instructions and i wrtie this changes in answer to Prolix! 

 

16 ore fa, Prolix ha scritto:

The combination of instructions leaves your players with limited options.

Buildup play from the back will be short (Play Out of Defence) and without urgency (Slightly Lower Tempo), unless a BPD chooses to take a risky option (Take More Risks). Your midfielders will remain very stationary (both on Hold Position) and only the DLP is instructed to get the ball forward. When you win possession your team is told to stay stationary as well (Hold Shape).

Your front players are discouraged from crossing or shooting by either PIs or the Work Ball Into Box instruction. Their only options are to complete a short pass, probably while slowing your tempo even more while they look for underlaps on both sides (which players will be making underlapping runs with the FBs told to position and run wide and the DMs holding position?), dribbling (Dribble More), or forcing a risky ball (Take More Risks). Even your center forward is discouraged from shooting. I struggle to see these players doing much more than recycling the ball over and over and clogging up the center of the pitch.

When defending, it seems that your team is too much divided into a top half and bottom half. The four forward players are told to press a lot and prevent the opponent from playing out from the back, but the defenders/DMs are told to drop off from their high line. I struggle to see how they will defend as a team coherently.

Some of these instructions can of course be used to build a style of play, but my impression is that your players have too few options because of how restricting their instructions are.

Prolix, I like your answer so much.. thanks for your time..

However...
I really appreciated your intervention because it's really simple but gets to the point. You highlighted a few but probably decisive things..

So to summarize:
- to start the maneuver and still give a decisive imprint to my tactical style, I would like to leave the slightly slower tempo but I remove play out of defense, but I insert for the goalkeeper "distribute the ball to the central defenders" so as to still ensure a starting from the bottom without adding "less risk" by play out of defense.(1)
- midfield, just the comment that both have "hold position" but it was only set because I have a very fluid team and I wouldn't want them to be too out of position in a negative transition (2)
- eliminated the instructions in transition, no counter-press and no counter.
-offensive phase, correct observation, the wingers have very little freedom and few creativity instructions, I therefore transformed both wingers into IW-So by setting PI only "take more risks", "go further forward" and "marking", leaving the standard passing, shooting and crossing.
-again for the offensive phase I changed from underlaps to overlaps, it seems more logical to me (3)
-eliminated "work ball into box" in the TI and the "shoot less often" in forward instruction.
- the comment relating to the negative transition phase was also very useful, where you tell me that the team would not have defended correctly, maybe I'm getting the principles wrong as I've always been used to playing with a 433 but the 4231 has different defensive principles, so I thought about setting standard pressing for everyone in the PIs except less pressing for the two central defenders and more pressing only for the attacker(4) and change his role from AF to P(in my opinion it reflects more how my forward must play in this tactic system, he must only score, not participate in the offensive phase but only score and free from the marking by moving)

I inserted some numbers in brackets to ask questions, so that it is more intuitive to understand what I am referring to:

1) I only set "distribute to Centre-Backs", no FB, only CB, by setting it like this it seems to me that the goalkeeper always passes it to the defenders, both from byline and when he has the ball in his hands, and it's a good thing I see or is it just a coincidence(3 matches i play)?

2) To bring the team into Flexible and therefore remove "hold position" of one of two DMs, I set the two FBs as WB-Df, I must say that from the first 2 games I can see them very well, they arrive well in the last third of the field perhaps also thanks to the overlaps instruction, in this way I have the team in flexible and set like this:
DM-So (fake DPL-So) with More direct passes, take more risk, dribble less, shoot less otfen and tackle harder.
BWM-So with Take fewer risks, shoot less often and hold position (I want this to be a defensive pivot rather than a creation one and I want it to be a game balancer by making tackles once you take a counterattack, so I just want it to stay in position and helps the circulation of the ball), Which is your opinion for these changes?

3)Do you think it is a correct choice having also put the WB-Df in order to increase their mentality and make more use of the flanks or maybe it s better to leave they in FB-So and team fludity in very fluid? 

4) Do you believe that these pressing settings can be "logically correct" and the change of role forward?

Sorry for all these questions but being a neophyte for the 4231 and having a lack of knowledge of the game principles of the 4231 I struggle to set it up, which doesn't happen with the 433 or 352 which I know the game principles much better.

Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond and for your support in creating this 4231.

I also attach the screen with the tactics and instructions of the players updated after these changes.

 

[Mik_Fe]

someone can help me? 

i'm completly heartnroken with this tactic.. I m never satisfied  

I can explain what I want from the players.. but please.. help me..

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Mik_Fe]

STOP EVERYONE!

I believe to have find a solution..

Yesterday evening when I watched Europa League, my mind worked, worked and worked... and worked about this damn 4-2-3-1..

And i think at the end, but if I ve a 4-3-3 possession football that I use from FM19, why i can t pick up the same principles and apply them in this tactic? with the necessary corrections...

And... at 1:00 AM.. I gave birth to her.. 4-2-3-1 Possession Football..

 

 

I want to be honest, I see many beautiful things in this tactic.. but really many.. especially in the phase of possession and recovering the ball as soon as possession is lost..
At the moment I'm just thinking about whether to keep the DLP-Su or replace it with a DM-S.. with the same tasks..
I don't think the tactics change much with this change... but being a possession-based tactic and the playmakers move a lot to receive the ball in FM24, I immediately thought that the DLP was better than the DM...

Well...someone want to tell me the idea of him and make me regret what I did?? 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Mik_Fe]

this is the kind of goal that makes me jump on my seat!! and yesterday I jumped!

PS: you can't see the frame of the ball entering the goal but I guarantee you it was a goal.. due to the size of the video I had to cut it to upload it!!!

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Maxim26]

53 минуты назад, Mik_Fe сказал:

 

this is the kind of goal that makes me jump on my seat!! and yesterday I jumped!

PS: you can't see the frame of the ball entering the goal but I guarantee you it was a goal.. due to the size of the video I had to cut it to upload it!!!

Hi. How are you doing with this tactic?

[Mik_Fe]

I can't yet express myself with the utmost certainty.. but if you've read the whole post you understand what I'm looking for, and with this tactic I'm seeing it.. placebo effect? I don't know.. for now I'm enjoying it and I continue to study the weak points..

 

[Mik_Fe]

This creation is in standby now.. since i see the probably problem of ME side defensive phase..

[Mik_Fe]

Guys... i try to create a 4231.. but i dont understaind the bases i think.. i'm disheartened..

I need help.. If anyone bring some times to help me, I would be grateful..

At the moment I created this tactical structure, so I'm not dissatisfied, because good results are coming anyway, but I'm not as satisfied as with the 433 or 3421 that I created, where I really enjoyed looking at them..

So...........
1] I started by trying WB-Defend but they were really not very incisive in the last third, so I changed to WB-S..and things seem to be going better in the offensive phase without leaving too many problems in the defensive phase (at least for now after 7 games in the championship - test with Sunderland)

2] Central defenders are fine, I like them as classics.

3] The two pivots (I lost my mind for days trying to figure out which is the best pair or the best combination for what I'm looking for, I chose the DLP and the classic DM, the BWM didn't give me the opportunity to be able to insert the PI" move forward", which I can do when I see certain situations in the game with the DM. The SV comes to play the attacking midfielder for me, leaving only the DLP and it's not something I want, because it also takes space for the freedom of movement of the AM and the internal cut of the inverted wing, so I discarded it as a hypothesis in the basic tactics.

4] The two offensive wingers, after reading and re-reading Rashidi's thread on role combinations, I opted for two IWs (two Sane to make myself clear), create chance and if he has possibility, try to score, it s ok for my idea...

5] Another role where I wasted time was the AMC, undecided between the AP and the AM. AP seems to me to lean more towards the two midfielders to receive the ball and spread out with passes (Ozil, Dybala or Eriksen came to mind), while the AM is more similar to a Bruno Fernandes or Kaka, who roam around the pitch to be incisive.

6] Then I always have many doubts about the attacker, dictated mostly by what the players behind him do, for example if I have the AMC moving in the channels, I don't want him to do it (so I choose poacher or target man) on the contrary all the others who move in the channels when the AMC doesn't do it, as in this case I chose the role that stretches the team the most for me, but I think that playing so high and looking for possession football, it would perhaps be better to choose a DLF or a TM who plays more with the team (CF would be the best but you need to have a player capable of having the skills).

 

I'm not a fan of the 4231, but I want to look for one that works, that I can use with Bolton or with Como, or with United or with PSG, a tactic that can be a unique base regardless of where I want to use it.

In the possession phase I'm noticing that it's a 2-4-3-1, and I like it, and what I want, although perhaps it would be best to have 2-4-1(AMC)-2(IW)-1, but little changes, in possession phase i think that i need to change littel little thing and the tactic it will be perfect for my idea...

I ask help from all of you if you can give it to me, so that I can finish this crazy work that I can't seem to finish.

Ask anything you want if you need to understand what I want to achieve.

Thanks so much guys!!

 

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Mik_Fe

[Lasson]

What is it that is not working?

When creating my tactic, I tend to think about my offensive shape; how do I want my players to position themselves when I am in possession?

With the ball I want the 4-2-3-1 to transition into a 3-2-4-1 shape and for that to happen, I have to use certain roles for the positional rotations to happen.

Since I last posted this picture, I have made some slight tweaks, but the principals are the same. My IFB(d)'s together with the CD(d) are the back three with the L(s) pushing up alongside the DM(s) to create the double pivot. The VOL(a) pushes up into the AM strata occupying the left half space, making the AM(s) slide over to the right half space, while the wingers, obviously, are maintaining the width. 

Does it make sense?

[Mik_Fe]

Man.. thanks for your tactic and your idea, but i need to create MY 4231, with my idea and my transition movement.. i dont want IFB, i dont want VOL and other things. I wanto to work for my 4231 and i need help to create this..

What s not work? all... i dont know how 4231 needs to work than example 433, i dont know which space i need, which role.. all...

I need help for this... I create my 4231 with my idea but for now i dont see what i want and i need help for this..

[Lasson]

It was not my intention to give you my tactic for you to just copy and use. My intention was to give you an insight into how I approach creating and building a tactic. 

How do you want your team to play building up?

[Mik_Fe]

Good question…

The construction must start from the back, with CB and DM, WB remain wide and the AM goes down to receive ball, in the phase of possession I want a 2-4-3-1, with WB going up together with DM and AM passing the ball to the right and left in the pitch, it must rotate around him and around one of the two DM if he has marked. The striker doesn't want him to move much but he has to score and play the ball easy, the IW want to be mainly creators of occasion and then scorers.

this is what i want, but.. i dont know if i chose the correct role..