Defence-First Football Tactics (Also Home To Real Sociedad Fans)

[ceefax the cat]

Maybe I'm late to the party but these tactics don't seem very 'defence first'...?

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, ceefax the cat said:

Maybe I'm late to the party but these tactics don't seem very 'defence first'...?

Really with 3 in the back and 1 DM? Is low block, passive football the only "defensive" approach? 

My idea of "Defence-First" is limiting the opposition attack opportunities while being as clinical as possible up front. Not to play stereotypical passive anti-ootball. Inter-style 3-5-2 is a perfect example of what I'm looking for.

Edited July 8 by crusadertsar

[HanziZoloman]

@crusadertsar it’s impressive a true party but please can you tell me how do you create tactics like this? Of course I‘ve read it all, it’s all on the pages before. But I am so bad at this … 

[-Jef-]

I've always found DW-S to actually be surprisingly attacking role but very demanding role mentally and physically. If you think DW-S is too adventorous I found success using PI and defend position (for example AMRL depending on the side) to basically create a 5 at the back you would usually get if your starting formation included wing backs. You could get away with with some defensively poorer players in DW role because it is a hardcoded role that includes a lot of tracking back, staying wide and lots and lots of dribbling and crossing. It is definitely one of the more underutilised roles in the game, if not the underutilised role. 

 

Combined with WCB you should get plenty of width naturally in the game. Even though most top end teams in 2024 play in a 235 or 325 formation offensively indicating that you really need one wide player and rest occupying half spaces and centrally. If you are feeling frisky you might try Oyarzabal at the DM as regista or dlp with double WCB to not lose on defensive rigidity. Mikal is definitely viable option as a defensive mid due to his technical and mental abilities but his physicals are declining rapidly.

[Tibalg]

At the end, which tactic did you use ? 
On your picture, you still have the two DM. 

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, Tibalg said:

At the end, which tactic did you use ? 
On your picture, you still have the two DM. 

This is what I used for that 10 goal blowout game.

The duty of Segundo Volante varies quite a bit depending on the game. Against better opposition I like Support duty because it's not as adventurous. The right CM tends to switch alot between AP and Mezzala on Support. That depends on the player I'm playing. When my older, very technical but physically declining Oyarzabal is playing I favour AP. But then go with Mezzala with younger physical players. I'm still not sure which role is best for this position. Might try again a more attacking W(A) on that side combined with recycler cover role like Carillero, but I fear it might make our attack too stagnant. 

[crusadertsar]

15 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

@crusadertsar it’s impressive a true party but please can you tell me how do you create tactics like this? Of course I‘ve read it all, it’s all on the pages before. But I am so bad at this … 

For me tactic creation is not easy (even if it may look like that sometimes haha). It's very much a balancing act. For every player getting ahead to attack the space I try to have another one, if not more, covering for him. There is also an element of risk. Unfortunately if all your roles are staying back then who is going to score goals?

 

Spoiler

As you can see in my lastest tactic (sorry away from my computer hence ratemytactic image), both right WCB and right DW(d) should for the most part cover for my adventurous SV. At the same time on the left flank, I try to provide more coverage via WCB and DM for my more forward-thinking duo of DW(s) and AP, both of which will try to get into final third to either provide crosses or passes to the forwards. 

The left flank is one I'm not completely happy with. It can do with some more balancing I think. That balancing act again 😄. Is it attacking enough? Or too much attacking? Maybe I should just make DW(s) into all-out winger (like in my concept before) and let Carillero and DM to cover for him? Or do I need the creativity of my AP 🤔 ? Many questions, and no easy answers. So yes tactics creation is never easy and not meant to be. But it's the process that I enjoy the most, and hope you do too, despite the frustrations.

Edited July 9 by crusadertsar

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks man that are kind words and good insight @crusadertsar

[Tibalg]

Interesting thought about the left flank.

why not using a WM(a) and a CM(su) with specifics PI ? It will be less « offensive » than a winger and less « défensive » than a Carrilero 

You will still have the DM(d) covering and thé WCD(su) taking the space at time

And with good personal trait, your left midfield could be a lethal weapon

 

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, Tibalg said:

Interesting thought about the left flank.

why not using a WM(a) and a CM(su) with specifics PI ? It will be less « offensive » than a winger and less « défensive » than a Carrilero 

You will still have the DM(d) covering and thé WCD(su) taking the space at time

And with good personal trait, your left midfield could be a lethal weapon

 

I think I'll give that a try. I think my Cristian Villanueva would do well as WM(A). And besides I can give a few playmaker-type individual instructions to the CM. Good idea 

[jc577]

@crusadertsar what's the thinking behind having the AP to the left rather than centrally? Is that to provide cover for the DW?

[crusadertsar]

31 minutes ago, jc577 said:

@crusadertsar what's the thinking behind having the AP to the left rather than centrally? Is that to provide cover for the DW?

Well initially it was a Mezzala, so yes i was thinking it would give more cover, especially with very hard working player like Oyarzabal. But now the more i think about it, the more I prefer just a simple recycler role like CM or Carillero. So basically we have two runners, SV and left winger connecting with forwards while one midfielder recycles possession and one DM acts as defensive insurance infront of the three central defenders. I think the attacking force of two strikers, left winger/WM(a) and Segundo Volante should be enough.

Edited July 9 by crusadertsar

[jc577]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

Well initially it was a Mezzala, so yes i was thinking it would give more cover, especially with very hard working player like Oyarzabal. But now the more i think about the more I prefer just a simple recycler role like CM or Carillero. So basically we have two runners, SV and left winger connecting with forwards while one midfield recycles possession and one acts as defensive insurance infront of the three defenders. I think the attacking force of two strikers, left winger/WM(a) and Segundo Volante should be enough.

Makes a lot of sense mate, the CM-S is such an underrated role imo, it's not too attacking nor too offensive. And what I love the most is how the role is interpreted differently depending on the player you use there, which makes it very flexible without having to change anything. The link up with the WM-A should be really nice too, with the CM-S slightly withdrawn in the half space allowing the WM-A to invade it. Straight pass, diagonal run vibes 

[sejo]

10 ore fa, crusadertsar ha scritto:

This is what I used for that 10 goal blowout game.

The duty of Segundo Volante varies quite a bit depending on the game. Against better opposition I like Support duty because it's not as adventurous. The right CM tends to switch alot between AP and Mezzala on Support. That depends on the player I'm playing. When my older, very technical but physically declining Oyarzabal is playing I favour AP. But then go with Mezzala with younger physical players. I'm still not sure which role is best for this position. Might try again a more attacking W(A) on that side combined with recycler cover role like Carillero, but I fear it might make our attack too stagnant. 

What about TI? Thanks!

[naufal husain]

8 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Well initially it was a Mezzala, so yes i was thinking it would give more cover, especially with very hard working player like Oyarzabal. But now the more i think about it, the more I prefer just a simple recycler role like CM or Carillero. So basically we have two runners, SV and left winger connecting with forwards while one midfielder recycles possession and one DM acts as defensive insurance infront of the three central defenders. I think the attacking force of two strikers, left winger/WM(a) and Segundo Volante should be enough.

If I might suggest, probably more safe option is 'creative/attacking' carrilero rather than 'defensive' mezzala. I tried to put my playmaker into Carrilero and it works just fine. So in your case, maybe put Sanz or even Oyarzabal as Carrilero to protect Villanueva(?) as Winger on attack. But your DW-support scored 2 goals so I don't think you need to play him as W-attack...

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, sejo said:

What about TI? Thanks!

[Tibalg]

Il y a 8 heures, naufal husain a dit :

If I might suggest, probably more safe option is 'creative/attacking' carrilero rather than 'defensive' mezzala. I tried to put my playmaker into Carrilero and it works just fine. So in your case, maybe put Sanz or even Oyarzabal as Carrilero to protect Villanueva(?) as Winger on attack. But your DW-support scored 2 goals so I don't think you need to play him as W-attack...

I find out that thé Carrilero is playing very deep, almost like a DLP(s). Maybe it is too deep, and I prefer this player around or surging into the box, almost like a B2B. 
 

I also see in the récap that you are lacking penetration from the center. 
What about a CM(a) instead of Volante ? Might be too adventurous?

[crusadertsar]

57 minutes ago, Tibalg said:

I find out that thé Carrilero is playing very deep, almost like a DLP(s). Maybe it is too deep, and I prefer this player around or surging into the box, almost like a B2B. 
 

I also see in the récap that you are lacking penetration from the center. 
What about a CM(a) instead of Volante ? Might be too adventurous?

I really like how my Volante works actually. He has 6 goals and 3 assists in 5 games. I prefer to keep him. What I think I'll do is keep testing CM(s). I think it's a more dynamic role than Carillero. If not that then maybe central AP(s) with roaming instruction selected would be worth trying. Anyway just some ideas. I like your BBM idea too but the players I have for the left CM position are more suitable to AP or generic CM role.

By the way, we just beat PSV in Europa League, 3-0, with another beautiful goal from Segundo Volante. A tremendous role in this tactic, especially when on Attack duty. The opposition is having a really hard time marking him.

Edited July 10 by crusadertsar

[Tibalg]

Il y a 1 heure, crusadertsar a dit :

I really like how my Volante works actually. He has 6 goals and 3 assists in 5 games. I prefer to keep him. What I think I'll do is keep testing CM(s). I think it's a more dynamic role than Carillero. If not that then maybe central AP(s) with roaming instruction selected would be worth trying. Anyway just some ideas. I like your BBM idea too but the players I have for the left CM position are more suitable to AP or generic CM role.

By the way, we just beat PSV in Europa League, 3-0, with another beautiful goal from Segundo Volante. A tremendous role in this tactic, especially when on Attack duty. The opposition is having a really hard time marking him.

I am a huge fan of CM(a) but I never try a Segundo Volante. 
Very impressive result with him, I will try it ! 
And you are right you have the double pivot défensively speaking and a good threat in attack. 

[keeper#1]

I've been bouncing between these two systems at Swansea.

 

[Wavelberry]

What's the halfback doing in that system with the rotation as you've already got 3 at the back and nae one to split with?

[keeper#1]

3 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

What's the halfback doing in that system with the rotation as you've already got 3 at the back and nae one to split with?

It's very much a WIP.  I may move one of the WCB to a Libero and have him push into the midfield.  But still a WIP.

[Wavelberry]

6 hours ago, keeper#1 said:

It's very much a WIP.  I may move one of the WCB to a Libero and have him push into the midfield.  But still a WIP.

That's cool but I was more wondering what the HB has been doing when you've been watching the games

[keeper#1]

5 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

That's cool but I was more wondering what the HB has been doing when you've been watching the games

Looking at the average position without the ball.  Not much.  He's just sitting on top  of the central back in the back 3.  I was hoping he would help create a central block of four defender or, at worst, be a little more advanced  and offset with the central back.  But it looks like he's just trying to be a sweeper and not being very effective at doing it.  But still a WIP.  I need to work with some of the roles and PIs to see if I turn it into a diamond-like back four with a stopper and sweeper.

[crusadertsar]

Another lopsided hammering in Europa League. I'm starting to think that maybe this tactic is a bit broken  Yet I love the beautiful, and oftentimes quite direct, football on display. But purists will probably lament that it's not really a pragmatic-type, defence-focused tactic. Dunno, we are conceding much less than we are scoring so I think it's still "Defence-First" tactic. 

Again 2 wonderful goals from my designated Segundo Volante, this time with Greek international Barkosis embracing the role. 

Edited July 12 by crusadertsar

[sejo]

Any PI?

[El Payaso]

18 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm starting to think that maybe this tactic is a bit broken  

This is why I never use asymmetric formations on FM. At least on previous editions the AI was not able to deal with them. Haven't tried those for years now. 

[crusadertsar]

21 hours ago, sejo said:

Any PI?

Not many. Currently just "stay wider" on both wide players. I changed their roles a few time recently so not all might be necessary anymore. 

[jc577]

@crusadertsar how do you find trap inside to be working? 

[vrig]

Thought I'd share a little on my own defence-first tactic since I've had a pretty good result. It's a pretty basic setup that has a bit of Mourinho to it and produces some wonderfully dull matches, especially in big games. We're 11th in the league for possession, averaging 50%, and rank 17th for opposition passes per defensive action, indicating that we absolutely are not a pressing outfit. Still, we've had our successes.

Some background

The save started off as a 'horses for courses' experiment, in which I basically built a new tactic from the ground up ahead of every single match. I leaned heavily on the Data Hub to do this, and got a pretty good handle on using OIs and the toggle instructions. This proved to be pretty effective, especially in cup competitions in the first season of the save. In the second season, I carried on this motif, but with more of a settled base to go back to because as interesting a challenge as it was, it was bloody exhausting after a while changing tactics every match. So come season 3, that settled tactic was what I wanted to go with, with only minor mid-match tweaks needed, rather than wholesale changes. Now, with three seasons playing as Manchester United, it goes without saying that I was able to shape a very strong squad and it's probably the strongest I've had in any version of FM in terms of sheer depth. Unfortunately, I seem to be completely allergic to playing Portuguese clubs, or we might have retained the CL and won the Club World Cup, but I digress.

The tactic

For the most part, this is how we approached games:

Injuries and fatigue throughout the season forced a fair amount of rotation of course, but the general idea was to have hard workers in the forward line, players who would out-muscle their opponents in midfield, and a defence that would win their physical duel - most importantly in the fullback positions. That's why I signed Van de Ven and Josh Doig - two players who look more like centre backs - to play in that aggressive wing back role. I like to invite crosses in most matches (and I already had the CBs to do it), but I learnt pretty early on in this save that if your fullbacks can't defend the back stick, you will get punished.

In terms of PIs, the 'set and forget' ones were increased closing down on the front four, and for the double pivot, shorter passing and less risk-taking. The idea with the former was to provide a dogged screen in front of the settled back seven, while the with latter, I wanted them to be safe in possession and not give up cheap turnovers. The number ten was also roaming and moving into channels. Additionally, when holding a lead, one (or both) of the DMs could be instructed to hold position, depending on the feel of the game.

For tough away matches or finals, I'd typically up the tempo again; the idea being that I did not build this team to keep possession and control matches with the ball. The likes of City, Liverpool, Arsenal, and even Chelsea, are a lot better at doing that in my save, so it was somewhat necessary to force chances against them with what possession we did have. The only other TIs I ever really needed to tweak were time-wasting and my goalkeeper's distribution. toggling the GK to slow the pace down was my first port of call when holding onto a result. We didn't have to chase games too often, but when pushing for a goal it would be quick distribution and sometimes trading 'hold position' for 'counter.'

Conclusions

I don't think the tactic itself is exactly groundbreaking or particularly clever in any way. It's just a pretty basic 4-2-3-1 that morphs into a 3-2-5 kind of thing that anybody could knock together. I think the reason it's been so successful for me is the players I've picked for the roles. The AP(s) being a natural midfielder rather than a winger makes a big difference to how it plays. The fullbacks essentially both being central defenders with good physical attributes makes the tactic more solid even if one of them is getting up and crossing at the byline, Having both a left-footed and right-footed corner taker in the side, and players with high jumping reach basically everywhere accounts for the fact that we've scored over 20 goals from set pieces and conceded just two.

Then again, I did get Scott McTominay to score 19 goals playing as a DM, so maybe I am a genius

 

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, jc577 said:

@crusadertsar how do you find trap inside to be working? 

Actually I found that it wasn't making much difference so I turned it off. Trying to keep instructions as simple as possible is usually for the best.

@vrig Neat tactic! I love how versatile McTominay is in FM24. Able to play in every position through the centre, wow. What a player!

Edited July 14 by crusadertsar

[lololoxstyle]

Love this topic

A little tired of my attacking teams, where the score is 4:3 or 5:4 is normal, I decided to follow the Defence-First philosophy

In 2039, in my intercontinental career, I was brought to Monterrey, a good Mexican club that has not known trophies for 10 years.

There were two solid strikers in the team 

So I decided to bet on a very defensive mid-block structure and killer counterattacks, in which these two would show themselves as much as possible.

As a result, the team conceded only 2 goals in the first 14 matches and easily took the League Cup, ending the tournament with only 1 missed

Well, for the entire Apertura, the team conceded only 6 goals and is the best in the league by all defensive metrics

[TheMartello]

13 minutes ago, lololoxstyle said:

Love this topic

A little tired of my attacking teams, where the score is 4:3 or 5:4 is normal, I decided to follow the Defence-First philosophy

In 2039, in my intercontinental career, I was brought to Monterrey, a good Mexican club that has not known trophies for 10 years.

There were two solid strikers in the team 

So I decided to bet on a very defensive mid-block structure and killer counterattacks, in which these two would show themselves as much as possible.

As a result, the team conceded only 2 goals in the first 14 matches and easily took the League Cup, ending the tournament with only 1 missed

Well, for the entire Apertura, the team conceded only 6 goals and is the best in the league by all defensive metrics

 

Looks very cool!

 

Do you use any player instructions?

[lololoxstyle]

8 минут назад, TheMartello сказал:

 

Looks very cool!

 

Do you use any player instructions?

Only "tackle harder" for everyone

[Jakey8]

Yesss! This is exactly the “defence first” style I love reading about. Truly defense focused and solid at the back with little conceded. It’s felt we were drifting away from that in this thread so it’s nice to see a post like this! Looks like you’ve built this so well around the players you have at your disposal also. Congrats! 

[vrig]

15 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Actually I found that it wasn't making much difference so I turned it off. Trying to keep instructions as simple as possible is usually for the best.

@vrig Neat tactic! I love how versatile McTominay is in FM24. Able to play in every position through the centre, wow. What a player!

To think I was gonna sell him! Player's player of the year 

[Falahk]

Was just about to post an update on my wednesday save, having finished the 3rd season in 8th, with the best defence in the premier league...and well, then my laptop died on me, and now I feel incredibly stupid for not backing the save up on my external drive 😢, if I'm unlucky and the laptop can't be resurrected, then I might have to start fron scratch again, which absolutely sucks 

[Basille]

On 14/07/2024 at 16:32, lololoxstyle said:

Love this topic

A little tired of my attacking teams, where the score is 4:3 or 5:4 is normal, I decided to follow the Defence-First philosophy

In 2039, in my intercontinental career, I was brought to Monterrey, a good Mexican club that has not known trophies for 10 years.

There were two solid strikers in the team 

So I decided to bet on a very defensive mid-block structure and killer counterattacks, in which these two would show themselves as much as possible.

As a result, the team conceded only 2 goals in the first 14 matches and easily took the League Cup, ending the tournament with only 1 missed

Well, for the entire Apertura, the team conceded only 6 goals and is the best in the league by all defensive metrics

This has been working very nicely for me! Have experimented with dropping the DLF for a 10 as well as once going up 1-2 goals increasing time wasting and lowering tempo with some success. 

[Fox-7-]

Defence-First finally did it!

 

By sticking to our 442 shown in previous posts, at the end of the 5th season we managed to win the Scottish Premier League!

With greater squad depth and by keeping fresh legs via rotation and injuries under control at normal levels, we didn't have any drop in performance and we totally killed it, conceding only 23 goals (best defense a cut above the rest, 2nd best was Celtic and conceded 37!) and also recording 20 clean sheets, remaining unbeaten until the 34th matchday.

The greatest satisfaction is having achieved success with many players signed in the first two seasons, when we had a low reputation and almost no budget, and even with 3 important players who have been at Kilmarnock since the beginning save as they are in the IRL team (Mayo, Deas, Watson).

Edited July 19 by Fox-7-