Avoiding exploiting tactics

[Maddux]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb dzek:

It would be good to accept each other's way of playing the game and when we can help someone with something they are facing, we should do so generously. There is certainly no one way to play the game and everyone chooses to be entertained differently.

It's just that for years I've had a question and I still haven't been able to solve it. Let's say there are some users who play the game "realistically" and others who take it to the extreme (with strong tactics that ME likes - meta/exploit/whatever) ok? Why is it that those who play the game that take it to the extreme are more open to helping another or new players join the game while the users who play it "realistically" are sometimes insulting and not cooperative at all?

I'm not talking about anyone in particular from this conversation, nor do I want to expose anyone. It's a question I've had for years and with this conversation I thought I'd ask.

I accept everyones way to play the game because FM is a singleplayer game and it's on you how you can find the most fun. It dosn't affect my FM experience if someone decides to use exploit tactics, use the IGE to transfer Haaland to his division 3 club, or whatever.

But what i can't accept is people sharing misinformation that is simply based of their own lack of knowledge. Misinformation that is stopping other users from learning and trying to improve because they're constantly told that the only way to be successful in FM is using "meta" TIs and, more or less, exploitive formations and roles. It just isn't and people have proven it countless times that totally different approaches are viable too. I have my own tactics thread here with 2 very successful balanced non-"meta" tactics and have published other non-"meta" tactics in other forums for years.

In depth tactic threads and general guides that explain every little detail because i don't just want people to download my stuff but actually learn about tactics in FM so they can start creating their own successful tactics.

 

@avenger22 claims that other approaches arend't viable? I challenge him to post his non-working tactics so i, and everyone else here in the forums, can look at it and explain to him why it isn't working and how he can improve the tactics without using exploits or "meta"-TIs.

[dzek]

16 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Don't know what you are talking about. There are plenty of examples of users who play game "realistically",as you say, helping many newcomers with invaluable tactical advice threads that they posted on here for years. Personally, learned to play FM by getting advise from these users on here. I also don't want to throw names around but common, don't tell me that you never got any help from @Rashidi @Cleon @herne79 or @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! among many others.

Honestly I've got help from these guys, yes. But I'll leave it here.

9 hours ago, Maddux said:

I accept everyones way to play the game because FM is a singleplayer game and it's on you how you can find the most fun. It dosn't affect my FM experience if someone decides to use exploit tactics, use the IGE to transfer Haaland to his division 3 club, or whatever.

But what i can't accept is people sharing misinformation that is simply based of their own lack of knowledge. Misinformation that is stopping other users from learning and trying to improve because they're constantly told that the only way to be successful in FM is using "meta" TIs and, more or less, exploitive formations and roles. It just isn't and people have proven it countless times that totally different approaches are viable too. I have my own tactics thread here with 2 very successful balanced non-"meta" tactics and have published other non-"meta" tactics in other forums for years.

In depth tactic threads and general guides that explain every little detail because i don't just want people to download my stuff but actually learn about tactics in FM so they can start creating their own successful tactics.

 

@avenger22 claims that other approaches arend't viable? I challenge him to post his non-working tactics so i, and everyone else here in the forums, can look at it and explain to him why it isn't working and how he can improve the tactics without using exploits or "meta"-TIs.

If someone needs to come to the forum to "learn" how to build a tactic or play the game then you understand a lot of things about the game in itself. The approach of using “meta” instructions is the easiest way to get into this game because the game itself is incapable of helping new players learn otherwise.

Anyway, I'm not talking to anyone to argue here. Merry Christmas everyone!

Edited December 26, 2023 by dzek

[Rashidi]

Enough of the personal attacks. As always there are going to be many ways to play the game and the debate on whether it’s realisitic or exploitative will continue. Ultimately this is a game and I hope that immature posts do not get this thread closed.

[whatsupdoc]

Broadly speaking I'm finding the above roles slightly stronger (or easier to get right) than their alternatives:

SS in AMC

IWBs

AFs

Two DMs in the DM slots, whatever roles. 

 

Finding these trickier to get right:

AP

HB

IF (to a lesser extent)

Any AMC role not making lots of forward runs I to the box

Edited December 26, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[Maddux]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb whatsupdoc:

Broadly speaking I'm finding the above roles slightly stronger (or easier to get right) than their alternatives:

SS in AMC

IWBs

AFs

Two DMs in the DM slots, whatever roles. 

 

Finding these trickier to get right:

AP

HB

IF (to a lesser extent)

Any AMC role not making lots of forward runs I to the box

The SS is "stronger" than other attacking roles when used in an offset AMC position because he has "moves into channels" hardcoded AND can be instructed to stay wider. The only other attack role that can do that to is the Trequartista and all other roles can either stay wider or move into channels. This allows for more movement and pulling defenders out of position.

CMs should have an advantage over DMs because they have 3 more duties to chose from but many of the CM roles arend't really different to each other except for one hardcoded PI. DM roles differ more and it's easier to get a defensive DM role to stay back than a defensive CM role. DM roles also position themself deeper during buildup, create a tighter shape by forcing teammates to come short and can pull opponents higher with the deeper position in buildup.

[dzek]

8 hours ago, Maddux said:

The SS is "stronger" than other attacking roles when used in an offset AMC position because he has "moves into channels" hardcoded AND can be instructed to stay wider.

You mean SS play better in AMCR/L than AMC because of his hardcoded PIs?

[Maddux]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb dzek:

You mean SS play better in AMCR/L than AMC because of his hardcoded PIs?

Where did i said that?

[dzek]

3 minutes ago, Maddux said:

Where did i said that?

"The SS is "stronger" than other attacking roles when used in an offset AMC position"

What do you mean by that?

[Maddux]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb dzek:

"The SS is "stronger" than other attacking roles when used in an offset AMC position"

What do you mean by that?

"because he has "moves into channels" hardcoded AND can be instructed to stay wider. The only other attack role that can do that to is the Trequartista and all other roles can either stay wider or move into channels. This allows for more movement and pulling defenders out of position."

[tropicsafc]

Hence why they asked 

[crusadertsar]

5 hours ago, Maddux said:

"because he has "moves into channels" hardcoded AND can be instructed to stay wider. The only other attack role that can do that to is the Trequartista and all other roles can either stay wider or move into channels. This allows for more movement and pulling defenders out of position."

@dzek @Maddux With all due respect it's not really an exploit. More of the intended use of shadow striker. If anything it's how Shadow Strikers usually work in real life. Offset to one side from the real striker to better move into space that's liberated by the positioning and movement of your #9 player. It's been something that also worked very well in all versions of FM since FM2014 when SS role was first introduced. So not exploit at all. Just smart tactical positioning. Sort of like playing with flat midfield 3 in narrow diamond where your Mezzalas will work better by moving wider into halfspaces if you play them with CM(s) with hold position in the middle. This was the presence of this player will naturally push the two Mezzalas (or carrileros wider without need for any other tactical instructions). 

Incidentally, I'm currently using offset Shadow Striker in my own Narrow Diamond 442 and he is scoring very well but not excessively, so as not to overshadow my AF. Which is very realistic. The combo of AF/PF(S)/SS had been great in FM24 but not gamebreaking. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Maddux]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb crusadertsar:

@dzek @Maddux With all due respect it's not really an exploit. More of the intended use of shadow striker. If anything it's how Shadow Strikers usually work in real life. Offset to one side from the real striker to better move into space that's liberated by the positioning and movement of your #9 player. It's been something that also worked very well in all versions of FM since FM2014 when SS role was first introduced. So not exploit at all. Just smart tactical positioning. Sort of like playing with flat midfield 3 in narrow diamond where your Mezzalas will work better by moving wider into halfspaces if you play them with CM(s) with hold position in the middle. This was the presence of this player will naturally push the two Mezzalas (or carrileros wider without need for any other tactical instructions). 

Incidentally, I'm currently using offset Shadow Striker in my own Narrow Diamond 442 and he is scoring very well but not excessively, so as not to overshadow my AF. Which is very realistic. The combo of AF/PF(S)/SS had been great in FM24 but not gamebreaking. 

I never said that an offset SS is an exploit. Just commented on a post where another user said that it's easier to get SS and a couple other roles to work right and gave an explanation why SS can be superior to other roles.

I'm using an offset SS in my asymmetrical 3-4-3 because he has a better movement than other roles with his PIs.

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Maddux said:

I never said that an offset SS is an exploit. Just commented on a post where another user said that it's easier to get SS and a couple other roles to work right and gave an explanation why SS can be superior to other roles.

I'm using an offset SS in my asymmetrical 3-4-3 because he has a better movement than other roles with his PIs.

That's what I guessed you meant. Just didn't want others to misunderstand since this is the exploit thread. It's just good use of the role so I'm not surprised you get better movement.

[bosque]

@crusadertsar @Maddux Sorry, english is not my native language. By "offset" you mean the SS not in the AMC but in the AMCR or AMCL?

[Maddux]

vor einer Stunde schrieb bosque:

@crusadertsar @Maddux Sorry, english is not my native language. By "offset" you mean the SS not in the AMC but in the AMCR or AMCL?

Yes

[dzek]

3 hours ago, Maddux said:

Yes

On 27/12/2023 at 00:50, dzek said:

You mean SS play better in AMCR/L than AMC because of his hardcoded PIs?

@Maddux Was it so hard to answer the same question for me too, ha?

[NineCloudNine]

13 hours ago, fraudiola said:

not a tactic but Advanced Forwards. Advanced Forwards need to be deleted from the game. everyone and their mother (including the AI) play AFs, its so stupid and broken. its more so a combination of things; the ineptitude of defenders dealing with long balls, how easy it is to just blindly hit a perfect long ball while under pressure.

What is it about the way an AF plays/is coded which makes the role so OP?

[NineCloudNine]

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

its not the way AF is coded per se, but how other aspects are coded. 

its waaaaay too easy to just blindly punt a ball forward under pressure and for it create a goal scoring chance, and how frequently this happen

but the main issue is the way defenders behave against long balls is borderline mentally challenged

And presumably the AF is the role which is most likely to push right up agains the defensive line, plus have pace/acceleration as prime attributes?

I ask because in theory some other roles (notably PF-A) should behave in the same way (pushing high), but don't seem to be as overpowered. So I'm trying to ascertain if it is something about the way the AF is coded, or rather the potency of acceleration/pace, which happen to be key AF attributes.

Edited December 30, 2023 by NineCloudNine

[crusadertsar]

14 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

And presumably the AF is the role which is most likely to push right up agains the defensive line, plus have pace/acceleration as prime attributes?

I ask because in theory some other roles (notably PF-A) should behave in the same way (pushing high), but don't seem to be as overpowered. So I'm trying to ascertain if it is something about the way the AF is coded, or rather the potency of acceleration/pace, which happen to be key AF attributes.

@fraudiola AF is just doing what it is supposed to be doing as a striker spearhead. Its a role that is supposed to push the opposition defensive line and dribble and run at defenders and even give support to other attackers at times. Read the role's in-game description. It's meant to be a very versatile role for your star striker. When you look at the attribute profile for a typical AF you will see that its a very demanding role requiring technical, mental and physical attributes in equal measures unlike some other striker roles who are more technically (Poacher or False9) or physically focused (TF). But at the same time this means that AF will be absolutely deadly if you find a player that fits all the AF criteria, meaning fast, tall, technical and intelligent. Think someone like Haaland and how well he plays in real life. He is a perfect example of AF, spearhead role. Trust me just by playing any striker in AF role, it won't guarantee goals. You need the right player but when you do then he surely will be a threat to opposition. And that is no exploit, just playing the game well and putting players into roles they are most suited to, as is intended by game devs. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by crusadertsar

[herne79]

On 29/12/2023 at 20:21, fraudiola said:

Advanced Forwards need to be deleted from the game. everyone and their mother (including the AI) play AFs, its so stupid and broken

On 29/12/2023 at 20:21, fraudiola said:

youre basically guaranteed a good amount of goals per season just by playing a semi pacey AF

8 hours ago, fraudiola said:

the main issue is the way defenders behave against long balls is borderline mentally challenged

3 hours ago, fraudiola said:

it couldve been further exploited too if only GK distribution isnt broken

Given that the AF, defenders vs long balls and GK distribution is so “broken”, “stupid” and “mentally challenged” please start a new thread in the Bugs forum which details these issues and include lots of match pkms with time stamps of the issues occurring as examples for SI to investigate .

As an aside (and imo) it’s not necessarily the individual things which are broken as you outline, it’s more to do with the overall setup.  As an example: in one of my saves I use an AF + CF(s) with a TQ behind an AMC - my CF(s) is my top scorer, scores far more than my AF and my TQ even scores more than my AF.  I could of course change things so that my AF is my top scorer but that would involve an extensive rethink of my overall system.  Are AF’s strong?  Yes but imo no more so than many other roles when part of a suitable system.

 

Anyway, back to the original topic, imo “exploit” systems are made - either by accident or design - to take specific advantage of issues in the ME.  That does not mean that 3xAF with lots of attacking roles elsewhere, counter pressing and an Attacking mentality (for example) is part of an “exploit”.  The ME is extremely flexible and is perfectly capable of being used in different and creative ways: not everyone wants to play in the same manner.  I’d much rather have that flexibility than being constrained into specific ways of playing.

The issue for me relates to this creativity - us humans can be far far more creative than our AI opponents.  So if we want more of a challenge we can (usually) choose to play in a manner similar to the AI - ie., realistically; on the other hand we can also choose to have an easier time of things and do things that the AI cannot do.  So for me, if anything is currently “exploitable” it’s the AI, not the ME.

Edited December 30, 2023 by herne79

[lied90]

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

its just a numbers game. 

Which is why all the meta tactics have take more risks on all defenders and midfielders Pass it into space enough times and it will work, kinda the same logic that hoofball is based on.

[whatsupdoc]

It's not just long balls impacting the AFs. Even pressing high and crossing a lot I've just made a 17 year old backup keeper score 3 in 3 games as an AF in the EPL. 

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/579205-football-manager-2024-official-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=14282842

Edited December 31, 2023 by whatsupdoc

[Rashidi]

On 31/12/2023 at 18:13, fraudiola said:

i did have a GK distribution is broken thread in the bugs forum a couple years ago, nothing came of it. i honestly have 0 faith in SI fixing something thats not widespread when theres already a litany of longstanding obvious minor issues that they havent fixed, probably just not worth their time and resources to fix

I want to be very clear about this, because there is a fair bit of misunderstanding regarding the treatment of issues. When a user reports an issue, it is reviewed first. If it is deemed a bug then SI clearly states that it is one. If SI does not acknowledge it as a bug it isn’t one. Sometimes SI may review it and just keep silent which also means it isn’t a bug. People cited a GK distribution bug a while back in a previous edition which was indeed acknowledged and addressed.

And while a bug needs to be widespread there can also be instances when a bug is a rare specialised one which can only occur in a specific use case scenario. I raised a bug about the ball winning midfielder in FM20 or 21 and proved with numerous pkms how this could be replicated, SI agreed and addressed the bug.

When you say SI does not address it because it’s not “widespread” that isn’t very true. There are however plenty of bugs still in the game which do not make the game unplayable eg, the UI bug with the keeper.

Issues need to be addressed with respect to impact and game playability. Sometimes a user like you might think a role is too “exploity”, in fact I always hear that using two AFs is an exploit when in reality that role was designed to be a focal point of attacks so balls naturally go to him earlier compared to other roles, that is by design and a design decision.  You don’t have to like it, but that’s the developers perogative.

If you think it’s an exploit prove it and show how it’s possible to repeat the same “trick” with any team.  When people say physical attributes are too OP, that’s been the case since 1998. Nothing new, but no one has proven they are an exploit. Anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence. I am not saying it isn’t an exploit, some may not see it as an issue, but for those that do, they need to send in their saves and prove the case. 

At least SI addresses issues like playability, even the much touted example of Larian studios fares poorly compared to SI. They hardly address playability issues, I havent been able to play BG3 in 2 months.