Help building / tweaking a "4-3-3"

[whatsupdoc]

Here's what I'm working with and my starting point. Any and all comments / suggestions / criticisms welcome!

Fulham, EPL, Season 2.

Team strengths: passing, quick back 4, set pieces, aerial. 

Team weaknesses: lack of penetration up front.

 

TF (a): Pio Esposito. Seems the obvious role for him.

 

Lw - W(s): Iling. Temped to put him on attack duty but the low concentration stat will cause a lot of offsides.

 

Rw - IF (s): Roony. I think he's better suited to support duty to use his dribbing and long shot attribute. Could also try him on IW (s)...

 

MC(a): Baldanzi. Tricky one. He's better suited to an AMC position than an MC role. I've also put him here as it will push Iling wider. His high finishing makes it sense to have him closer to the box. He's useless in the air however, and has good vision so I wouldn't mind seeing him in the hole a bit more often. Possible that support suits him better however I think I need another source of goals.

 

RPM: Veloso. RPM seems a decent fit. 

 

DMC: Paulinha. To hold it all together?

 

 

LB - IWB (s): Luis. To drive into the space left by Baldanzi.

 

R-WB (a): Kayode. To give us width and crosses from the right.

 

CB (d): Pavlovic.

BPD (d): Ahmedozic

 

SW-GK (d): Carnesecchi

 

 

Team instructions:

Width: Fairly wide to take advantage of the Target Forward's aerial ability.

Pass into space: Off. No great pace up front apart from the LW, and he has low concentration so if I try to get him in behind he'll be constantly offside.

Shorter Passing & Slightly Lower Tempo: We have the quality to play short and the lower tempo makes sense to allow numbers to get forward.

Play out of defence: On as we have the quality for it. 

Work ball into the box: On as we have the quality and I think crosses to the TF are a better play than direct passes to him.

Focus play: None to begin with, although I'm tempted by playing down both wings and overlapping on the right side. 

Crosses: mixed. Tempted by floated but low seem OP?

 

Counter pressing: yes as we have the work rate for it.

Counter: Yes, tentatively. Main reason is that we will have 2 forward in Baldanzi and the striker quite often.

GK: Long quick throws to our playmaker in Veloso. Tentative about this one.

 

Defensively: Required due passive defending in the current patch I guess.

 

Oh, and in PIs I have the LW and RB set to cross to target-man.

Thoughts!?

Edited January 1 by whatsupdoc

[NineCloudNine]

With two players pushed up and the LB stepping into midfield, won’t there be a yawning gap on the left for opponents to counter-attack into?

[Maddux]

Formation wise it looks ok but i would change Baldanzi to support duty so he will drop deeper during buildup and tries to penetrate the defence from a deeper position. This will give Esposito more space to operate and when he advances during tansition into the final third leaves open space for Baldanzi, Bardghji and Veloso.

But your TIs and PIs, oh boy.

You want to distribute the ball long and quick to Veloso and then? Slowly work the ball into the box with short passes and trying to get some corners when you can't beat the defenders with dribblings. Bardghji is your only player with really above average dribbling skills that can regularely beat his opponent and everyone else will just lose the ball 8/10 times. Maybe they get a throw-in or a corner 2 out of the other 8 times but that's it. Remove "run at defence", especially if your overall playstyle is to replicate prime Barcelona under Guardiola.

And remove "play for set pieces". That's a TI i wouldn't use outside of counter tactics when my team is superior in the air. You try to create chances with Tiki Taka and dragging defenders out of position or you play for set pieces. But not both.

Play out of defense AND distribute with quick long passes to the playmaker. One or none but not everything at once. Looking at your overall style of play i would remove quick distribution, throw it long and distribute to playmaker.

High pressing is NOT required in the current patch to deal with passive defending. It can work but it isn't required. I and many other people use a mid to low press to force the opponents out of their own half and then have more space to counter into. I'm not saying that lower pressing is better but it's a good and well working option to the "required" high press.

The PIs?

Everyone in your team is instructed to pass it short, take no risks while passing, dribble a lot and take less shots. In addition to your already very slow and low risk playstyle. Of course you can't penetrate your opponents defence like that. I could watch the entire LotR trilogy before one of your players is near the goal and dares to take a shot. The way to crack a passive defence is to force the defenders to become active. Pass the ball faster, make your players move around in spaces between the opponents so the defenders have to leave their positions and open spaces you can play into.

You can try to replicate prime Barcelona but it won't work if you don't have a squad like prime Barcelona. And you don't. So don't try to force this rigid and very challenging playstyle on your players. Use less TIs and PIs and give your players more freedom.

[Maddux]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb NineCloudNine:

With two players pushed up and the LB stepping into midfield, won’t there be a yawning gap on the left for opponents to counter-attack into?

Not necessarily.

IWB and DM will take the half positions at the 6 and drift outside to cover depending on which side to opponent is trying to play over.

[Lasson]

Call me boring, but I would just run a traditional 4-3-3. Your midfielder will automatically move forwards to the AM strata if you use a BBM, MEZ, AP, RPM or CM(a).

[whatsupdoc]

Firstly thanks for all your replies! Before responding I'll just put down a base-line for how the above performed:

 

Ok to reply:

4 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

With two players pushed up and the LB stepping into midfield, won’t there be a yawning gap on the left for opponents to counter-attack into?

Potentially! See goal #2 conceded below. Generally, I'd like to think Pavlovic has the speed to step over and cover and the DM(d) to step in to DC.

Goals conceded:

1. Corner

2. Played out from the back through MCL gap, eventual cross from our left. 

 

Scored: 

1. Played through CM, Veloso in zone 14 draws defender then plays to Roony's feet, he runs in and slots 1v1.

2. Near post corner

3. Luis -> Baldanzi -> Iling -> through ball from the left to Esposito, scores 1v1.

4. Near post corner

5. Ahmedovic tight marking wins ball, 2 quick passes: Ahmed -> Veloso -> Roony, dribbles -> through ball to Esposito.

6. GK rolls it out to Veloso. Veloso -> Esposito feet. Draws defender, plays Roony. Roony through to Baldanzi 1v1, goal.

4 hours ago, Maddux said:

Formation wise it looks ok but i would change Baldanzi to support duty so he will drop deeper during buildup and tries to penetrate the defence from a deeper position. This will give Esposito more space to operate and when he advances during tansition into the final third leaves open space for Baldanzi, Bardghji and Veloso.

But your TIs and PIs, oh boy.

You want to distribute the ball long and quick to Veloso and then? Slowly work the ball into the box with short passes and trying to get some corners when you can't beat the defenders with dribblings. Bardghji is your only player with really above average dribbling skills that can regularely beat his opponent and everyone else will just lose the ball 8/10 times. Maybe they get a throw-in or a corner 2 out of the other 8 times but that's it. Remove "run at defence", especially if your overall playstyle is to replicate prime Barcelona under Guardiola.

And remove "play for set pieces". That's a TI i wouldn't use outside of counter tactics when my team is superior in the air. You try to create chances with Tiki Taka and dragging defenders out of position or you play for set pieces. But not both.

Play out of defense AND distribute with quick long passes to the playmaker. One or none but not everything at once. Looking at your overall style of play i would remove quick distribution, throw it long and distribute to playmaker.

High pressing is NOT required in the current patch to deal with passive defending. It can work but it isn't required. I and many other people use a mid to low press to force the opponents out of their own half and then have more space to counter into. I'm not saying that lower pressing is better but it's a good and well working option to the "required" high press.

The PIs?

Everyone in your team is instructed to pass it short, take no risks while passing, dribble a lot and take less shots. In addition to your already very slow and low risk playstyle. Of course you can't penetrate your opponents defence like that. I could watch the entire LotR trilogy before one of your players is near the goal and dares to take a shot. The way to crack a passive defence is to force the defenders to become active. Pass the ball faster, make your players move around in spaces between the opponents so the defenders have to leave their positions and open spaces you can play into.

You can try to replicate prime Barcelona but it won't work if you don't have a squad like prime Barcelona. And you don't. So don't try to force this rigid and very challenging playstyle on your players. Use less TIs and PIs and give your players more freedom.

 

Great feedback thanks! Makes sense. Next test:

• Baldanzi on support.
• Run at defence removed.
• Quick GK distribution and distrib to playmaker removed. Added roll it out as GK is bad at kicking.
• Will drop the line and pressing slightly as it does better suit the attributes of the players.
• Set pieces I'm less sure about because of the height of the team, but I'll try and see how it looks. What you're saying makes sense.

Regarding PIs, my general rule is that players with low vision generally get take fewer risks. Only Kayode is taking fewer risks. Baldanzi, Veloso, Roony, and Ahmedozic have take more risks on. Will see what the TI changes do before tweaking PIs too much.

3 hours ago, Lasson said:

Call me boring, but I would just run a traditional 4-3-3. Your midfielder will automatically move forwards to the AM strata if you use a BBM, MEZ, AP, RPM or CM(a).

Agreed. I prefer it, but ideally AM is the best position for Baldanzi if I can make it work. Early signs not too encouraging though.

 

Edited January 1 by whatsupdoc

[whatsupdoc]

Test 2 (same 5 games).

 

 

 

xG and xGA numbers are slightly better in test 2. Some odd stats like Roony offsides skyrocketing. Some more predictable ones are the lower progressive passes from several players without Baldanzi's extra forward runs. 

Conceded another goal or two from my left side so I think it's time to test a 4-3-3 proper with Baldanzi in CM. I suppose the alternative would be to make the DMC a ball winning midfielder to try to get him to fill gaps left by baldanzi... And/Or to shift him over to DMC(L)... or go to a 4231, which I hate. 

Anyway, I'm thinking Mezzala (a) as a starting point as it's the most attacking option.

I've also added "float crosses" as 10 matches have passed without an open-play headed goal from the target man.

I've made a habit of picking "tighter marking" for my CMs in a 4-3-3 regardless of their marking/tackling stats... any thoughts on this?

Edited January 1 by whatsupdoc

[HanziZoloman]

Well 8th with Fulham is not that bad. But nonetheless I‘d do some changes because it seems to me that there is more possible. 
Maybe if you think like that: Who should score the goals? I‘d say try to imagine two or three goalscorer from different areas of the pitch. My 433 has an IF(A) a PF(A) and a MC(A) as main goalscorer. 
after you decided on this, think about how you want them to score and how you want the rest of the team to support that. 
If you have a big guy like the TF dude you still need a good crosser. If you have a long shot sniper, he still needs the space and needs to get in position to shot. 
 

when I check on your players: you have Esposito who is a monster up front, I‘d play him as a CF(A) or PF(A) the left sided winger is fast and can cross the ball he would be a W(S). Next is Rony with dribbling, speed and longshots, also vision and passing. I‘d play him either IF(S) or (A) and give him a WB(S) for support. That‘s easy choices. You can play Esposito as a TF(A/S) regardless but then I‘d shape up in a 4222 with Baldanzi as a SS behind. Then he is the main scorer together with Rony like:

W(S) SS TF(S) IF(A) WB(S)

SS and IF(A) will penetrate and have support from WB(S) and TF(S). The W(S) supports the TF.

More Support: from DM, Paulinha should secure and defend like DM(S) the RPM(S) could easily be a VOL(S) but RPM should work to.
defend: He will roam and move a lot he needs the DM for cover. Left FB as IWB(S) and two CB as the last line. You secure with a 2-2 but could change into 2-3 or 3-2 easily.

With that setup I‘d play fast and short to bring SS and IF into play. 3rd option is a cross from WB or W to the TF. He can turn and score or lay it off into SS or IF. The RPM with through balls the DM for cover and recycle possession. I‘d give no PI for start and play in a midblock with enough pressure if the opponents cross the line. Regroup is not necessary (?) but of course counter. 
with 4 players up front in the 4222 you could also press high. 

 

Edited January 1 by HanziZoloman