FM24 Chielen's Total Belgian Lower League Overhaul

[MichielVM]

14 minutes ago, Svenpunt said:

Ik heb wel het gevoel dat het spel redelijk traag vooruitgaat met de nieuwste update. Is er iets dat ik zelf kan aanpassen?

Detaillevel verlagen en minder andere landen actief zetten.

[MichielVM]

6 hours ago, gaucharro said:

Great! Could I have a link to download it again, as I have Gamepass, not Steam

Here you go: https://we.tl/t-9QWzBTb4NC

[gaucharro]

hace 15 horas, MichielVM dijo:

Here you go: https://we.tl/t-9QWzBTb4NC

Thanks so much! 

[Arnie06]

Can you send the download link again because the previouse one expired.

[ImSo]

Thanks a lot for the update mate !

[Brandon Bachelor]

Le 16/08/2024 à 15:17, MichielVM a dit :

Here you go: https://we.tl/t-9QWzBTb4NC

If you can resend it back, it would be very nice

[MichielVM]

2 hours ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

If you can resend it back, it would be very nice

Here you go: https://we.tl/t-JWmAcHtFwR

[MichielVM]

On 05/09/2024 at 23:08, Arnie06 said:

Can you send the download link again because the previouse one expired.

Didn't see your reply, but here it is: https://we.tl/t-JWmAcHtFwR

[Brandon Bachelor]

Hello, after simulating a game until December 2032, some seasons were not played. I tried with another save until 28/29 and played the second part of the season. By July 2029, no Belgian competitions had been reset. Are there any tests or elements I can provide to help identify the cause of this bug?

[themodelcitizen]

On 07/01/2024 at 03:24, MichielVM said:

* For most new competitions, no honours/trophies are registered for the winning team. The teams are however considered to have won the competition.

This sounds like a ranking level issue? Happy to take a look if you want a second pair of eyes, what competitions is this happening with?

[MichielVM]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

This sounds like a ranking level issue? Happy to take a look if you want a second pair of eyes, what competitions is this happening with?

Well yes, that and the fact I use group competitions to group them by region in the lower levels. I think it gets confused as there would be more than one winner per competition that way (each winner of a group wins their respective competition). I did set the groups to 'use' the actual sub competions. 

Some cup competitions also have the same issue, I also use a group stage for the first rounds as the number of teams entering is variable. I think group stages cause trouble somehow.

Most of the competitions have this issue, so I'll just suggest two at random: derde provinciale Limburg (three subcompetitions (A, B, C), set as groups of the main competition) and the Beker van Limburg (cup competition for that region).

I would definitely appreciate you having a look at this issue. I experimented a bit with ranking levels, but it did not seem like my modifications would resolve the issue so I decided to release as is. Let me know if something is unclear in the file, it did get pretty complex in some regards (but not for ranking levels I don't think).

[MichielVM]

On 21/09/2024 at 22:47, Brandon Bachelor said:

Hello, after simulating a game until December 2032, some seasons were not played. I tried with another save until 28/29 and played the second part of the season. By July 2029, no Belgian competitions had been reset. Are there any tests or elements I can provide to help identify the cause of this bug?

Hi, I really thought I got this issue for good this time. I regret that it still happened in your save.

Could you have a look through all competitions to see if there are some games for the most recent season that have been scheduled after the 30th of June? If that would happen, the matches would prevent the season from resetting until the next reset date (30th of June) one year later. 

Also: try going on holiday for the entire season, see if it restarts after that.

[Brandon Bachelor]

il y a 39 minutes, MichielVM a dit :

Hi, I really thought I got this issue for good this time. I regret that it still happened in your save.

Could you have a look through all competitions to see if there are some games for the most recent season that have been scheduled after the 30th of June? If that would happen, the matches would prevent the season from resetting until the next reset date (30th of June) one year later. 

Also: try going on holiday for the entire season, see if it restarts after that.

Hi,

I've just checked many adults, U21, and U18 championships, which don't seem to have any matches scheduled after June 30. On arriving at the provincial cups, in particular the Namur Cup, I realize that the knockout stages have not taken place. Only the group stage had been scheduled. But no matches were played in the first and subsequent rounds, even though the date is given in the rules.

 

Base on another save, championships might be reset next season, when the sim finish I'll notify you  

[Brandon Bachelor]

The final play-off matches were usually scheduled for around mid-June.

[themodelcitizen]

2 hours ago, MichielVM said:

Well yes, that and the fact I use group competitions to group them by region in the lower levels. I think it gets confused as there would be more than one winner per competition that way (each winner of a group wins their respective competition). I did set the groups to 'use' the actual sub competions. 

Some cup competitions also have the same issue, I also use a group stage for the first rounds as the number of teams entering is variable. I think group stages cause trouble somehow.

Most of the competitions have this issue, so I'll just suggest two at random: derde provinciale Limburg (three subcompetitions (A, B, C), set as groups of the main competition) and the Beker van Limburg (cup competition for that region).

I would definitely appreciate you having a look at this issue. I experimented a bit with ranking levels, but it did not seem like my modifications would resolve the issue so I decided to release as is. Let me know if something is unclear in the file, it did get pretty complex in some regards (but not for ranking levels I don't think).

Oh yeah, that can be tricky using the subcomp in the stage itself, that can definitely confuse it. I think if you're using ranking levels, then they are as normal (i.e. applying to the wider competition, so the winner of the sub-comp doesn't get a final ranking yet) but you can add a fate action "set team placing in competition" and set that to 0 and it just applies to the sub-comp.

Then to add a history record you might need the "stage action" under "other stage rules" (just under the stages, for the whole comp) and add an "add history record" with the relevant stage, using that stage for placings, and the round name if needed.

At least this is what I gathered looking at MLS and how they hand out the Eastern and Western conference trophies as sub-comps within the wider playoffs, and it seems to be working when I translate it to other comps like this

[Brandon Bachelor]

I can confirm that most competitions were reset the following season, but some were only reset two years later.

 

In my save, the first league that wasn't reset was the 2nd Provincial of Namur in 28/29, while all other leagues were not reset starting from the 29/30 season.

 

I also noticed that some B teams were relegated without finishing in a relegation spot, or even without their A team being relegated to the same level.
I'll send screenshots to show the different cases as soon as I can. Could this also be part of the issue?

[MichielVM]

33 minutes ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

I can confirm that most competitions were reset the following season, but some were only reset two years later.

 

In my save, the first league that wasn't reset was the 2nd Provincial of Namur in 28/29, while all other leagues were not reset starting from the 29/30 season.

 

I also noticed that some B teams were relegated without finishing in a relegation spot, or even without their A team being relegated to the same level.
I'll send screenshots to show the different cases as soon as I can. Could this also be part of the issue?

Ah yes, it is the 2nd Provincial of Namur that causes the issue then. Somehow it must not have found enough teams to set up and other competitions depend on its completion to finish up themselves. It is strange that this happens though, as I implemented several fall-back mechanisms. 

The B-teams that are relegated are intended, I made sure that teams that are too close to their A-team are force relegated/not allowed to be promoted dynamically. Namur was a weird region though, at the start of the game, teams are already too high up, so there are a lot of relegations for B-teams at the start.

What might have happenend is that somehow more teams went out of the competition (through relegation or promotion) than came back in. Could you check the last season before the interruption for Namur 2 and count all promoted and relegated teams for that competition and the competitions above and below (to see if the number going in and out matches up for that level).

[MichielVM]

9 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Oh yeah, that can be tricky using the subcomp in the stage itself, that can definitely confuse it. I think if you're using ranking levels, then they are as normal (i.e. applying to the wider competition, so the winner of the sub-comp doesn't get a final ranking yet) but you can add a fate action "set team placing in competition" and set that to 0 and it just applies to the sub-comp.

Then to add a history record you might need the "stage action" under "other stage rules" (just under the stages, for the whole comp) and add an "add history record" with the relevant stage, using that stage for placings, and the round name if needed.

At least this is what I gathered looking at MLS and how they hand out the Eastern and Western conference trophies as sub-comps within the wider playoffs, and it seems to be working when I translate it to other comps like this

When I get around to tinkering with the file some more, I will look into this. I think that I know were I can implement what you suggest, but I will let you know if I'm entirely sure if I'm doing it correctly.

Would you happen to know if I can check if the honour is recorded when testing in the editor? That could save me a lot of time  

I remember that the teams were seen as having won the competition in the logs in the editor tests, but it did not translate into the honours page (the game did recognise that they had won though, very strange).

[Brandon Bachelor]

Il y a 10 heures, MichielVM a dit :

Ah yes, it is the 2nd Provincial of Namur that causes the issue then. Somehow it must not have found enough teams to set up and other competitions depend on its completion to finish up themselves. It is strange that this happens though, as I implemented several fall-back mechanisms. 

The B-teams that are relegated are intended, I made sure that teams that are too close to their A-team are force relegated/not allowed to be promoted dynamically. Namur was a weird region though, at the start of the game, teams are already too high up, so there are a lot of relegations for B-teams at the start.

What might have happenend is that somehow more teams went out of the competition (through relegation or promotion) than came back in. Could you check the last season before the interruption for Namur 2 and count all promoted and relegated teams for that competition and the competitions above and below (to see if the number going in and out matches up for that level).

I checked the P1, P2, P3, and P4 Namur leagues. Indeed, at the end of the 27/28 season in P2, two teams are missing (3 promoted to P1, 4 relegated to P3, 2 teams relegated from P1 to P2, and 3 teams promoted from P3 to P2), while in P3, there is one extra team. The following season, the P2 and P3 Namur leagues were not reset.

In the 32/33 season, some A-teams are in P4 while their B-teams are in higher divisions. These teams were relegated to P4 from P1, P2, and P3 after the competition reset.

[MichielVM]

10 hours ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

I checked the P1, P2, P3, and P4 Namur leagues. Indeed, at the end of the 27/28 season in P2, two teams are missing (3 promoted to P1, 4 relegated to P3, 2 teams relegated from P1 to P2, and 3 teams promoted from P3 to P2), while in P3, there is one extra team. The following season, the P2 and P3 Namur leagues were not reset.

In the 32/33 season, some A-teams are in P4 while their B-teams are in higher divisions. These teams were relegated to P4 from P1, P2, and P3 after the competition reset.

Thanks for checking, something clearly went wrong here. It seems to have corrected itself in the end luckily. I'll try to figure out why this happened.

[Brandon Bachelor]

Le 25/09/2024 à 07:56, MichielVM a dit :

Thanks for checking, something clearly went wrong here. It seems to have corrected itself in the end luckily. I'll try to figure out why this happened.

I continued simulating the save, thinking all the leagues had been reset, but only the Jupiler Pro League, Challenger League, and P4 were being reset every 2 or 3 years.

I decided to start a new game and reached the 29/30 season, and so far everything is going well.

Looking back at the league standings from the first bugged save, could the fact that Spy B won the championship and was automatically relegated because Spy plays in the higher division have caused the problem? Final standings for season 27/28  Namur P1 and P2B

Is it possible to ensure that the B team can play in the lower division and only be relegated if the A team is relegated to the same level, or would that be problematic?

[MichielVM]

18 minutes ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

I continued simulating the save, thinking all the leagues had been reset, but only the Jupiler Pro League, Challenger League, and P4 were being reset every 2 or 3 years.

I decided to start a new game and reached the 29/30 season, and so far everything is going well.

Looking back at the league standings from the first bugged save, could the fact that Spy B won the championship and was automatically relegated because Spy plays in the higher division have caused the problem? Final standings for season 27/28  Namur P1 and P2B

Is it possible to ensure that the B team can play in the lower division and only be relegated if the A team is relegated to the same level, or would that be problematic?

That could be the cause, but normally teams that are force relegated are not allowed to get promoted. Did Spy A get relegated in the same season perhaps? 

Letting B-teams get relegated too close to their A-team is not a good idea, that creates a lot of edge cases, for example when the A-team is relegated dynamically (depending on relegations in even higher divisions) and the B-team wins their league at the same time. In that case the B-team could just bypass their A-team if they are just one league apart, there's nothing really stopping that from happening in the game (it does not always recognise relegations through bottom playoffs for the B-team rules). Once you get in that situation, things start to get increasingly unstable.

The rules now are pretty rigid, but should keep everything stable in the long run (or so I thought):

* If a B-teams' A-team plays less than 2 levels higher: forced relegation (to eventually get them at least 2 levels apart)

* If a B-teams' A-team plays less than 3 levels higher: promotion is not allowed/cannot play in promotion play-off

(this is just from memory, but I think this is how I set it up)

Normally that Spy B teams should not have been able to be promoted. Be aware that winning a league is not necessarily the same as getting promoted, the promotion spot goes to the first elligible team (as do the play-off spots).

Edited Thursday at 17:03 by MichielVM

[MichielVM]

Very strange, in your screenshot Spy A and B are too close to eachother! Could you track if they got relegated or promoted closer together in the previous seasons?

Edited Thursday at 17:44 by MichielVM

[Brandon Bachelor]

il y a 56 minutes, MichielVM a dit :

That could be the cause, but normally teams that are force relegated are not allowed to get promoted. Did Spy A get relegated in the same season perhaps? 

Letting B-teams get relegated too close to their A-team is not a good idea, that creates a lot of edge cases, for example when the A-team is relegated dynamically (depending on relegations in even higher divisions) and the B-team wins their league at the same time. In that case the B-team could just bypass their A-team if they are just one league apart, there's nothing really stopping that from happening in the game (it does not always recognise relegations through bottom playoffs for the B-team rules). Once you get in that situation, things start to get increasingly unstable.

The rules now are pretty rigid, but should keep everything stable in the long run (or so I thought):

* If a B-teams' A-team plays less than 2 levels higher: forced relegation (to eventually get them at least 2 levels apart)

* If a B-teams' A-team plays less than 3 levels higher: promotion is not allowed/cannot play in promotion play-off

(this is just from memory, but I think this is how I set it up)

Normally that Spy B teams should not have been able to be promoted. Be aware that winning a league is not necessarily the same as getting promoted, the promotion spot goes to the first elligible team (as do the play-off spots).

In the 28/29 season, Spy, who finished second in P1 and didn't win the playoffs the previous season, remained in P1. Spy B was indeed relegated to P3.

It was in the 26/27 season that Spy A was relegated to P1, and Spy B was promoted to P2, reducing the gap between them to just one division.

[MichielVM]

15 hours ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

In the 28/29 season, Spy, who finished second in P1 and didn't win the playoffs the previous season, remained in P1. Spy B was indeed relegated to P3.

It was in the 26/27 season that Spy A was relegated to P1, and Spy B was promoted to P2, reducing the gap between them to just one division.

Interesting, I'm not sure how that was possible. Did Spy B get promoted through the playoffs or directly?

[Brandon Bachelor]

il y a 17 minutes, MichielVM a dit :

Interesting, I'm not sure how that was possible. Did Spy B get promoted through the playoffs or directly?

They finished 1st and were promoted directly.

Are the rules established at the start of the season? For example, is it possible to introduce a rule stating that the B team cannot be promoted due to the A team playing in a division too close to theirs, similar to the restrictions in the Challenger League?

[MichielVM]

3 hours ago, Brandon Bachelor said:

They finished 1st and were promoted directly.

Are the rules established at the start of the season? For example, is it possible to introduce a rule stating that the B team cannot be promoted due to the A team playing in a division too close to theirs, similar to the restrictions in the Challenger League?

Yeah they are set at the start of each season. You can look under the 'rules' tab in the competition and all teams that cannot be promoted should be there.

Just to say, I already implemented that rule, not sure how it bypassed it. Elsewhere it seems to work fine.

Edited Friday at 13:09 by MichielVM