Mistakes in possession at the back

[whatsupdoc]

24.2 is seeing huge numbers of BS passes from defenders straight to opponents for me. I'm wondering if others have noticed whether the number of mistakes like these is lower or higher with "playing out from the back" on, "riskier passes" on/off, more direct or shorter passing??

Cheers

[ceefax the cat]

They should be much more common for teams trying to play high-risk, short passing football. It's much too easy to gegenpress and juego de posicion your way to glory currently. 

[Dr Naysay]

4 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Cheers, you're welcome to just upload the save and I'll take a look if you like. 

Bringing this here so as not to hijack another thread. I just found your Fulham tactic and and the stats and your tactic is really an over-thinking hodge-podge of counterintuitive team and player instructions. If you actually look through your numbers here in a detailed manner there are some big clues that your Fulham tactic wasn't working properly, despite your early league positions. Things like your CB and DM having the second most shots on target would seriously worry me and in my mind I can already envision the scenario of how these two are having the second most shots and the answers are right there in your set-up. As for playing out from the back, how you set up your tactic and the players within that tactic plays a massive part in to how they play out from the back, and I don't see that in that Fulham save, what I do see are you back four making nearly as many mistakes in 5 games as my back four made in an entire season

I am not going to deny that in the early games on any save your defenders will make basic errors that make you want to pull your hair out, but that tends to be from your squads morale being poor early on (if you join with a poor reputation), your players not having fully gelled with the tactic and your teams cohesion being poor. If you have built a solid tactical foundation and you show some patience they will eventually come good and you will very rarely see these problems. If you like, I wouldn't mind seeing your current tactics and clips of the Defenders mistakes at playing out from the back please. Or if you let me know who you're managing I will make a save and share that save with you.

 

Edited February 5 by Dr Naysay

[whatsupdoc]

8 minutes ago, Dr Naysay said:

Bringing this here so as not to hijack another thread. I just found your Fulham tactic and and the stats and your tactic is really an over-thinking hodge-podge of counterintuitive team and player instructions. If you actually look through your numbers here in a detailed manner there are some big clues that your Fulham tactic wasn't working properly, despite your early league positions. Things like your CB and DM having the second most shots on target would seriously worry me and in my mind I can already envision the scenario of how these two are having the second most shots and the answers are right there in your set-up. As for playing out from the back, how you set up your tactic and the players within that tactic plays a massive part in to how they play out from the back, and I don't see that in that Fulham save, what I do see are you back four making nearly as many mistakes in 5 games as my back four made in an entire season

I am not going to deny that in the early games on any save your defenders will make basic errors that make you want to pull your hair out, but that tends to be from your squads morale being poor early on (if you join with a poor reputation), your players not having fully gelled with the tactic and your teams cohesion being poor. If you have built a solid tactical foundation and you show some patience they will eventually come good and you will very rarely see these problems. If you like, I wouldn't mind seeing your current tactics and clips of the Defenders mistakes at playing out from the back please. Or if you let me know who you're managing I will make a save and share that save with you.

 

Good idea. Just so we're on the page which version of my tactic are you looking at?

There's been a few

I'm not playing out from the back at the moment however I'm going to try again next season. Will share the results / tactics here when I do. 

Bear with me as it's a network save and moves slowly at times.

Edited February 5 by whatsupdoc

[whatsupdoc]

12 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

Bringing this here so as not to hijack another thread. I just found your Fulham tactic and and the stats and your tactic is really an over-thinking hodge-podge of counterintuitive team and player instructions. If you actually look through your numbers here in a detailed manner there are some big clues that your Fulham tactic wasn't working properly, despite your early league positions. Things like your CB and DM having the second most shots on target would seriously worry me and in my mind I can already envision the scenario of how these two are having the second most shots and the answers are right there in your set-up. As for playing out from the back, how you set up your tactic and the players within that tactic plays a massive part in to how they play out from the back, and I don't see that in that Fulham save, what I do see are you back four making nearly as many mistakes in 5 games as my back four made in an entire season

I am not going to deny that in the early games on any save your defenders will make basic errors that make you want to pull your hair out, but that tends to be from your squads morale being poor early on (if you join with a poor reputation), your players not having fully gelled with the tactic and your teams cohesion being poor. If you have built a solid tactical foundation and you show some patience they will eventually come good and you will very rarely see these problems. If you like, I wouldn't mind seeing your current tactics and clips of the Defenders mistakes at playing out from the back please. Or if you let me know who you're managing I will make a save and share that save with you.

 

 

Would you mind posting a tactic you're using with playing out going well please

[Bahnzo]

I see lots of what I call "lazy passes" which are these slow passes that the defense easily picks off. I chalk it up to the game deciding there's supposed to be a turnover and the match engine playing it out as that slow pass. It's maddening to watch because you know what's about to happen. 

Kind of like those long replays where your team builds up with lots of possession and you are sure you are going to score....only to make one of those bad passes and then you know you are in trouble. 

[Dr Naysay]

5 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

I see lots of what I call "lazy passes" which are these slow passes that the defense easily picks off. I chalk it up to the game deciding there's supposed to be a turnover and the match engine playing it out as that slow pass. It's maddening to watch because you know what's about to happen. 

Kind of like those long replays where your team builds up with lots of possession and you are sure you are going to score....only to make one of those bad passes and then you know you are in trouble. 

1. This is not how the match engine works. there are issues that can lead to sloppy play that aren't tactically or attributes related, but the match engine doesn't work like that at all. Btw there are some issues with the match engine that need tweaking imo like 2nd phase chances after corners seem to be OTT.

2. I find your last comment to be really interesting, because this is how you should be analyzing your tactics and fixing problems. One of the best bits of advice I got on here years when I was blaming the match engine and using plug and play tactics was to analyse the tactics both in attacking and defensive transitions and especially at the points of turnover. When I am analyzing my tactic early on I will pause and analyze religiously at various points checking positioning of players, turnovers etc and I make notes noting why turnovers were made, is it a specific player, is it tactically related and so I tweak and adjust. You mentioned the bad pass and then knowing you're in trouble but what are you doing to resolve these issues?

Having read your recent posts I think this is starting to be a losing battle because you're taking yourself in to an echo chamber of like minded people who just want to blame the match engine or Gegenpress tactics, and yet there tons of threads and external resources where people are having success with a variety of tactics. You would do well to follow Rashidi on YouTube and learn from him. 

[Bahnzo]

12 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

Having read your recent posts

Funny, you keep saying that to others posting here also. Maybe you need to just move on when you don't agree with someone and not go back and post stalk them?

[whatsupdoc]

16 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

1. This is not how the match engine works. there are issues that can lead to sloppy play that aren't tactically or attributes related, but the match engine doesn't work like that at all. Btw there are some issues with the match engine that need tweaking imo like 2nd phase chances after corners seem to be OTT.

2. I find your last comment to be really interesting, because this is how you should be analyzing your tactics and fixing problems. One of the best bits of advice I got on here years when I was blaming the match engine and using plug and play tactics was to analyse the tactics both in attacking and defensive transitions and especially at the points of turnover. When I am analyzing my tactic early on I will pause and analyze religiously at various points checking positioning of players, turnovers etc and I make notes noting why turnovers were made, is it a specific player, is it tactically related and so I tweak and adjust. You mentioned the bad pass and then knowing you're in trouble but what are you doing to resolve these issues?

Having read your recent posts I think this is starting to be a losing battle because you're taking yourself in to an echo chamber of like minded people who just want to blame the match engine or Gegenpress tactics, and yet there tons of threads and external resources where people are having success with a variety of tactics. You would do well to follow Rashidi on YouTube and learn from him. 

 

Heya, are you willing to share a tactic / save file so I can test?

[Dr Naysay]

16 hours ago, Bahnzo said:

Funny, you keep saying that to others posting here also. Maybe you need to just move on when you don't agree with someone and not go back and post stalk them?

That's a very good idea.

[Dr Naysay]

12 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

Heya, are you willing to share a tactic / save file so I can test?

We agreed we were taking one of your saves with your players and your available current tactics. That's the only way to make this a like for like test, once I am finished with a season I will send it back to you in a DM with some thoughts. I don't even mind if it's the Fulham save btw, in fact that's even better because you had some very able bodied players to play out from the back in that one.

Edited February 7 by Dr Naysay

[whatsupdoc]

23 hours ago, Dr Naysay said:

We agreed we were taking one of your saves with your players and your available current tactics. That's the only way to make this a like for like test, once I am finished with a season I will send it back to you in a DM with some thoughts. I don't even mind if it's the Fulham save btw, in fact that's even better because you had some very able bodied players to play out from the back in that one.

Save file "EPL 2025-26", go nuts: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-2aLC8JKmLAyLpuckA7EACee9f86AH-2?usp=sharing

My current tactics in there are irrelevant as they abandonned any idea of playing out long ago. 

I'll try to play out again next season using either Seimen in goal or a new GK signing. 

Squad is built to play a 4-3-3 however do whatever you like.

Open challenge to anyone who wants to try: finish top 4 using "playing out from the back".

Edited February 8 by whatsupdoc

[whatsupdoc]

On 08/02/2024 at 00:01, Dr Naysay said:

We agreed we were taking one of your saves with your players and your available current tactics. That's the only way to make this a like for like test, once I am finished with a season I will send it back to you in a DM with some thoughts. I don't even mind if it's the Fulham save btw, in fact that's even better because you had some very able bodied players to play out from the back in that one.

Any progress with this?

[lied90]

12 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Any progress with this?

I don't see the save file in question, unless it's the "EPL online" file.

[whatsupdoc]

On 13/02/2024 at 04:53, lied90 said:

I don't see the save file in question, unless it's the "EPL online" file.

Have removed it as I was low on space. Any system / data / context is fine if you can show "playing out" is better than having that box unchecked. I'm curious to check it out / understand it.

Edited February 15 by whatsupdoc

[lied90]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Have removed it as I was low on space. Any system / data / context is fine if you can show "playing out" is better than having that box unchecked. I'm curious to check it out / understand it.

Ok, but nobody on this forum will be able to prove that having it checked or unchecked is irrefutably better. There is too much RNG in FM, so to limit that you would have to test X amount of tactics with/without "Play out of defense" over thousands of matches to get accurate results.

 

On 08/02/2024 at 00:38, whatsupdoc said:

Open challenge to anyone who wants to try: finish top 4 using "playing out from the back".

This one is easy. All you have to do is to insert "Play out of defence" into any meta tactic.

[whatsupdoc]

37 minutes ago, lied90 said:

Ok, but nobody on this forum will be able to prove that having it checked or unchecked is irrefutably better. There is too much RNG in FM, so to limit that you would have to test X amount of tactics with/without "Play out of defense" over thousands of matches to get accurate results.

Irrefutable data isn't the goal just enough data where ignoring it seems counter-productive and counter-intuitive. 

 

38 minutes ago, lied90 said:

This one is easy. All you have to do is to insert "Play out of defence" into any meta tactic.

This one was specific to that save file and more about "outperformnig" using the same players but also playing out from the back.