Poor Set Piece Defending is Ruining the Enjoyment of FM24 - How to Counter This?

[El Payaso]

Delegating the set-pieces to the dedicated coach has balanced the things up for me for now. I'm scoring quite a few from corners but as long as they are not some huge marking errors after an initial clearance, I'm quite fine with it. 

The throw-ins on the other hand are a thing that you are not simply able to balance, especially as you don't have control of the AI teams. 

This on the other hand would be probably impossible to fix because, at least as far as I know, the match engine still doesn't include the physical side of defending such as using strength attribute to simply push the attacking player to the side. If this is not in the game, then how are you supposed to win the ball back from the throw-ins? 

I'm still not saying that there are too many goals from them (don't even know if the game is counting 'goals from throw-ins' stats. Probably not.) but it is pure blindness to claim that throw-ins and set-pieces in general don't start majority of the build-ups in the match engine. 

Also, when it comes to stats, the game probably doesn't count goals coming from set-pieces if they are not scored directly from the initial delivery. So, basically goals that come after an initial clearance or inside the penalty area pinball game, probably don't count as goals from set pieces. 

I would claim that there are big issues with set pieces in general but most of these wouldn't have been possible to fix with the limitations of the current system. If goal kicks and kick-offs can be considered as decent chances to score goals, then there is definitely something wrong with the balance.

I have big hopes for FM 2025 and especially that the issue with throw-ins won't continue to this version. Also would be nice to see more highlights starting from open play instead of set pieces. 

[lied90]

Throw-ins are 100% the biggest problem. It's so obvious when playing against real people that have a throw-in routine.

Throw-ins in real football are usually very static, and thus against an established defense, and the closest players to the throw-in taker is usually marked, making it hard to twist and turn. 

When I get a highlight starting with a throw-in in FM, I know it's gonna be a good chance or goal. 

In online you can almost predict the winner based on whoever gets the most throw-ins high up the pitch. Thankfully the AI doesn't abuse this as much.

[Rashidi]

The underlying issue with throw-ins is clear, there are some players who when tracking back turn their backs to the ball and in doing so also lose their marker. I notice it’s usually one or two players and I usually attribute this to poor marking and anticipation. It happens sometimes and I believe it was raised, before it was even worse.   That unfortunately happens differently for different setups and I expect it’s a nightmare to fix.  And since it happens to the AI as well I usually chalk this off since I personally can’t effect any changes myself.

[jozza800]

I'm not saying there is a direct problem, but it is defintely something I cant get right. I wouldn't mind conceding a header directly from a 6' 5" CB (as used to happen on older games) as that could be fixed with bigger stronger defenders. It's the goals that end up on the edge of the box after a bit of ping pong that end up with a shot on goal. I havn't been able to figure out how to stop it. It feels a little bit artificial to me.

[jozza800]

And the throw-ins are just comical.

[El Payaso]

I have uploaded a match file from my Coppa Italia match against Monza.

This match is a prime example of how the set pieces have worked on FM for years. There are 5 set-piece goals (1 from a throw-in, 3 from corner kicks, and 1 from a direct free-kick) in total, which is an exception of course. And it is not just the goals but the general influence of set pieces: they create a huge amount of chances as well as the majority of build-ups starting from them and both teams doing great in set pieces when attacking but being poor when defending. Not all the matches are like this, but this game is not a one-time-off thing. 

One of my biggest hopes for FM 2025 would be a total overhaul of set pieces. For example, throw-ins should be the likeliest place to lose possession instead of being one of the most effective sources of creating chances. Even at the top level most of the set pieces are harmless even though a significant amount of goals are scored from them. Where are the bad deliveries and good clearances from defenses?

Just to remind you: please don't bring up the stats but instead, look at how big an influence set-pieces have for example in this match. 

I would also recommend watching the comprehensive highlights to see the big picture here. If anyone from the SI team could also do this, and give their point of view, I'd really appreciate it. 

Torino v Monza.pkm

Edited August 1 by El Payaso

[KeegBCFC]

I am at a point now where every single goal feels like a second phase set piece goal, for an against. It's ruined it for me and I am gonna have to shelve the game now. The "most polished version ever" gets the least play time I have ever had in an FM game.

[El Payaso]

3 hours ago, KeegBCFC said:

I am at a point now where every single goal feels like a second phase set piece goal, for an against. It's ruined it for me and I am gonna have to shelve the game now. The "most polished version ever" gets the least play time I have ever had in an FM game.

The match engine has some good aspects in it but I was seriously baffled to see 60-70% of highlights still starting from set pieces when I returned to FM after 6 years. 

[Sunstrikuuu]

On 21/03/2024 at 06:15, Rashidi said:

The underlying issue with throw-ins is clear, there are some players who when tracking back turn their backs to the ball and in doing so also lose their marker. I notice it’s usually one or two players and I usually attribute this to poor marking and anticipation. It happens sometimes and I believe it was raised, before it was even worse.   That unfortunately happens differently for different setups and I expect it’s a nightmare to fix.  And since it happens to the AI as well I usually chalk this off since I personally can’t effect any changes myself.

It's not just players tracking back.  It also happens to elite goalkeepers at free kicks with the ball directly in front of them, for one.

 

 

[crusadertsar]

10 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

It's not just players tracking back.  It also happens to elite goalkeepers at free kicks with the ball directly in front of them, for one.

 

 

Yes but mind you what you see in 3d is just a game's visual representation of a scored freekick even if it looks funky. Those are successful sometimes in real life right haha? I wouldn't put too much faith in what it looks like in 3d engine.

[El Payaso]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yes but mind you what you see in 3d is just a game's visual representation of a scored freekick even if it looks funky. Those are successful sometimes in real life right haha? I wouldn't put too much faith in what it looks like in 3d engine.

Your words exactly, from a person who isn't a big fan of the 3D ME at all. These type of representations are one of the main reasons why I have never, and probably never will, play the game with the 3D view. 

[Sunstrikuuu]

30 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yes but mind you what you see in 3d is just a game's visual representation of a scored freekick even if it looks funky. Those are successful sometimes in real life right haha? I wouldn't put too much faith in what it looks like in 3d engine.

Which is fine, but the graphics engine is how the game communicates information to the player, and clearly a place SI have placed a bunch of development resources and made a point of emphasis in the last few years.  And it's going backwards -- I didn't spend much time with FM23, but in the month I played it through GamePass, I probably posted a dozen bug reports with PKMs related to players trying to control balls with their feet that were over their head.  That's a Garbage Out output; is it because there's garbage going in?  Or is it a bug in the match engine that's being expressed graphically?  I don't know and neither do you.

(Also, look at the positioning of the defenders.  Even if the GK's head is screwed on straight that's completely horrible, and it's under the control of the best set piece coach in the world.)

[Rashidi]

On 24/08/2024 at 22:03, Sunstrikuuu said:

It's not just players tracking back.  It also happens to elite goalkeepers at free kicks with the ball directly in front of them, for one.

 

 

The AI sometimes does a poor job of recognising the number of attacking players in a set piece. I am not sure if the AI is confined to always have X number of players in a wall.  I always look for a numerical advantage when taking and defending set pieces. I don’t think the AI does that all the time. If I were to leave set pieces on default then, there might be too many players in the wall. 
 

Hopefully when FM25 rolls in we will see more dynamic marking arrangements recognising numbers of players. Having said that we also need to accept the risks of pure zonal set piece marking too as evidenced by this weekends EPL action. United’s defeat was down to a horrific sequence of actions that started with their poor defensive setup during a set piece.

The set piece creator isn’t perfect but it favours the human player who takes big risks with easy payoffs. Hopefully it’s a bit more balanced in FM25.

[vrig]

I must admit I get more excited when my team has a throw-in in the final third than I do when they win a penalty 

[Defensive]

Am 21.3.2024 um 11:10 schrieb lied90:

When I get a highlight starting with a throw-in in FM, I know it's gonna be a good chance or goal.

Of course, otherwise it wouldnt be a highlight.

 

I dont get the problem people are talking about here at all. The only thing i agree is that too many build ups and highlights are starting with a throw in or other set pieces. But why would people say that every goal come from throw ins or throw ins are more dangerous than penaltys? I dont get it. As my name suggests i am the first who criticises the game for bad defending but it just doesnt happen to me. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 50 goals for or against come this way. The AI isnt bad in defending these set pieces in my game. Also there are not too many chances created by that. Set Pieces dont have too much influence in my games. I dont know if people are making this up or it has to do with my tactics but it just doesnt happen. Very weird.

[El Payaso]

2 hours ago, Defensive said:

I dont know if people are making this up or it has to do with my tactics but it just doesnt happen. Very weird.

It varies a lot between seasons and even saves. Don't remember the exact number but in less than a full season, I conceded between 20-25 goals from throw-ins with Torino. And with the trend I had, this number would have been gone above 30 if I had finished the season. 

This combined with almost every single highlight for the opposition teams starting from a set piece of some kind took the joy away from me completely. This on comprehensive highlights. 

The same happened also with Real Betis. Season one was okayish in terms of these but in season two things changed. 

[Defensive]

Am 21.3.2024 um 07:37 schrieb El Payaso:

If goal kicks and kick-offs can be considered as decent chances to score goals, then there is definitely something wrong with the balance.

Thats just nonsense.

[Defensive]

Am 21.3.2024 um 07:37 schrieb El Payaso:

 it is pure blindness to claim that throw-ins and set-pieces in general don't start majority of the build-ups in the match engine.

In many cases the highlights are starting with for example a throw in or a free kick in the own half and the actual goal or chance is happening much later, sometimes a minute later. The game just uses the set piece as a starting point in the highlights. If there is a free kick in the own half and then there is a build up and in the end its a goal then thats not a goal from a set piece obviously.

Goals or clear chances directly coming from set pieces are very rare in my save.

[El Payaso]

10 minutes ago, Defensive said:

Thats just nonsense.

How so?