4-2-3-1 DM AM please evaluate and help me with overlaps

[John_sol]

Hello all, I started a save with Bordeaux in Ligue2. Below is the tactic I am using:

Players Instructions
WB (both) : Stay Wider, Dribble More, Cross More Often, Cross Aim Centre ----> the plan here is the wingbacks to exploit whatever space they have available when we start attack from the back and move the ball forward. Also when in a position to cross and aim at the center where most often the big-man Striker is.

DM (both): Tackle Harder, Mark Tighter 
*used to have Get Further Forward on the Volante but that led to some defensive instabilities. So I went more conservative to create a "double pivot" in the center and allow the right wingback more freedom to go forward,

IW (both): Stay Wider, Tackle Harder, Mark Tighter. The plan is that since i play in a fairly narrow shape the wide players stay a bit further wide to stretch the opposition horizontally. Also I want them to follow their FBs/WBs so they mark tighter.

TQ and PF: Default PIs

 

No complaints—the season is going great. However, I feel this is due to a significant gap in ability between my team and the others in the league. I score many goals with direct through balls and my forwards easily spinning past their defenders.

This won't happen when I get promoted, so I want to be proactive and add some variation to my tactics. I want to naturally overlap on the flanks and feed the strong center forward with crosses from my wingbacks (mainly the left one, and the right one as a supplementary option).

Someone may have noticed that my main wingback on the left Simba, has registered 12 assists. However, this is mostly due to gaps in counter-attacks against weak teams and not from organized play. I want to have the option of probing the defending team, creating space for the wingback to penetrate, and delivering a cross. That is what I want to achieve.

I have created this tactic with the left winger in a support role, allowing the left wingback to naturally overlap. However, this seldom happens against organized defenses.

In attack, we should have a 2-2-1-5 formation when the Trequartista becomes the second striker. The two inside forwards (IWs) attack the half-spaces, and the left wingback (WB) attacks the line on the left, with the right wingback (WB) on the flank.

Any advice, recommendations, or remarks are kindly appreciated.

Edited May 23 by John_sol

[John_sol]

Further analyzing the matter, from our last Away game where we was badly beaten:

 

The team has faced all kinds of troubles since our wing play wasn't successful and we had to deal with a solid block (seven defensive roles) from the opposition, who rapidly counter-attacked using their wingers. I reviewed the game and took the screenshot below, which sums it all up:

 

 

In this scenario I changed the WB (R) to defend duty but Attacking Mentality made it so that it didn't matter much. 

So these are the issues I can identify:

1. Both wingbacks are high up the pitch, leaving us very exposed on the flanks if the ball is lost.

2. The passing lanes to the wingbacks are well blocked.

3. It seems as if the AI has achieved a defensive overload, with 8 players defending against my 6 attackers.

4. The defensive midfielders (DMs) should form a square with the two center backs, but it seems like they might collide in some circumstances.

 

How should I have reacted in this scenario? 
Maybe change the wingbacks to a Fullback role (attack on the left, Support or defend on the right)?
What if I had given a hold position shout at the left IW? Would that have created a pivot and drag their right fullback out of position?
(guess there are more...ideas )

 

Should I consider making changes to make this tactic more solid defensively?

[bababooey]

I would first look at your rest defense, or in other words, how the team looks when you have the ball comfortably. 

In the screenshots you've provided, it's clear that the opposition battered you down the flanks, and you can see why when you look at the rest defense. You've got the two center backs who are positioned fine, but they're not getting much help from anyone else. That's okay if it rarely happens, or if you're desperately chasing a goal, but generally you need to have 3 players back at all times to effectively handle counter attacks.

In your system, who is really holding in midfield?  The DLP-S?  He will have "hold position" as an instruction, but that's not always going to happen, it's more of a tendency.

Here's what I would do if I wanted to make this more solid defensively, AND if I wanted to maintain the flank attacks that you've set up here with your wingbacks.

 

- You have a lot of players making forward runs, so I'm curious why you're using the volante, and what purpose that serves here? I would say your system is set up like a flank attack / high press / counter pressing system, which is great. But does it need a volante rotating up into the AM tier?  That's a player role that would benefit from slower transitions where they have the time to rotate up (or back down when you lose the ball)

- If you change the volante to a halfback, you'd be able to form a back 3 when the team has possession, which would help cover the runs of the wingbacks. And, you'd still have the DLP who can help with the build up phase, PLUS the trequartista will also help if he drops deep.

- a trequartista in a heavy pressing system is an interesting choice. How is he doing?

- Keep in mind you're using the attacking team mentality, which means that your team is going to heavily emphasize risk taking, and attacking football. So, even players on support duty may be making more forward runs than you'd want. It's something to keep an eye on.  Is that what you want to see? If yes, then it's fine, but you still need to watch that.

- You might want to change the goalkeeper to a support duty.  In your system, I could see that being beneficial because of the high pressing nature of your setup.

[John_sol]

@bababooey Thanks a lot for your feedback, advice, and ideas. Much appreciated.

Yes, in that last match, we played more adventurously than we should have.

The Trequartista combines effectively with a Pressing Forward. The Pressing Forward handles the gritty work and scores, while the Trequartista supplements with Movement, Skill, and Creativity. The Trequartista also overloads both flanks with 'Move Into Channels' and provides extra passing options with 'Roam from Position', which proves very useful against defensive AI. Here is my Trequartista:

Not something spectacular but for French Ligue 2 he is great (that 15 Off The Ball so nice). 

 

I made some tweaks. First, the Volante (Support) became a Defensive Midfielder (Support). However, your idea of using a Halfback might prove useful in League 1, where we will face much better teams. Thanks for the suggestion and into the list for testing. Then, the left Inverted Winger was instructed to hold position to create a second pivot (along with the Trequartista) in the attacking line.

*Another thought I have is to make the left wingback a Complete Wing-Back on Support duty and maybe drop the mentality to Positive —testing pending.
** I'll try setting the goalkeeper with a Support duty and see how it goes. But overall, I'm satisfied with how he plays. He occasionally comes out to sweep through balls, which is promising.

Yes you are right in that the DLP (S) and hold position is misleading. My idea is to create a defensive square when attacking with two center-backs and two defensive midfielders, while accepting the fact that DMs are "soft-defending" rather than holding their position like a pure defend duty role does.

Here is a Statistics screen using the revised tactic against a similar 3-4 defence formation:

Surprisingly, the 'Holding' Inverted Winger had a good match, and defensively, the team performed quite well.

You are correct about the drawbacks of using an attacking mentality, regarding positional discipline. Will monitor further on player movement and fluidity. 

Thanks again! 

[bababooey]

On 23/05/2024 at 20:03, John_sol said:

@bababooey Thanks a lot for your feedback, advice, and ideas. Much appreciated.

Yes, in that last match, we played more adventurously than we should have.

The Trequartista combines effectively with a Pressing Forward. The Pressing Forward handles the gritty work and scores, while the Trequartista supplements with Movement, Skill, and Creativity. The Trequartista also overloads both flanks with 'Move Into Channels' and provides extra passing options with 'Roam from Position', which proves very useful against defensive AI. Here is my Trequartista:

Not something spectacular but for French Ligue 2 he is great (that 15 Off The Ball so nice). 

 

I made some tweaks. First, the Volante (Support) became a Defensive Midfielder (Support). However, your idea of using a Halfback might prove useful in League 1, where we will face much better teams. Thanks for the suggestion and into the list for testing. Then, the left Inverted Winger was instructed to hold position to create a second pivot (along with the Trequartista) in the attacking line.

*Another thought I have is to make the left wingback a Complete Wing-Back on Support duty and maybe drop the mentality to Positive —testing pending.
** I'll try setting the goalkeeper with a Support duty and see how it goes. But overall, I'm satisfied with how he plays. He occasionally comes out to sweep through balls, which is promising.

Yes you are right in that the DLP (S) and hold position is misleading. My idea is to create a defensive square when attacking with two center-backs and two defensive midfielders, while accepting the fact that DMs are "soft-defending" rather than holding their position like a pure defend duty role does.

Here is a Statistics screen using the revised tactic against a similar 3-4 defence formation:

Surprisingly, the 'Holding' Inverted Winger had a good match, and defensively, the team performed quite well.

You are correct about the drawbacks of using an attacking mentality, regarding positional discipline. Will monitor further on player movement and fluidity. 

Thanks again! 

 

Glad to see it's going well.  Keep in mind, I am not a tactical expert by any means. I just have been playing the game a long time now, and there are certain things you pick up along the way that make up good, sound, logical advice.

[John_sol]

Just a quick update: after some experimenting, I finally settled on the version below:

 

Now in attack we form a 2-4-4 (inverted 442) which is the proper attacking shape of a 4-2-3-1, The left Fullback is either attacking the space towards the byline or decide on an early cross. The Volante sits close to the '4 in attack'—the two Inside Forwards, the Trequartista, and the Striker—trying long shots and applying immediate pressure when possession is lost. Also the DLP (Zaire-Emery is top class) will occasionally move forward and try killer passes which often become key passes or an assist.

The two Central Defenders, along with the right fullback, cover our back. However, due to Fresneda's 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible' trait, he sometimes decides to attack the right flank and look for a cross. Also removed the Ball Playing Defender Role to encourage more involvement of the DMs and the FBs. 

There is so much variation in attack, covering all zones in a timely and well-designed fashion. Last but not least, the overlap on the left occurs naturally (without a TI), which is what I wanted since I started this thread.

So happy with the results so far, from newly promoted to challenging for European Qualification.

 

Also Fransergio our TQ, while a mediocre player stats-wise still performs admirably.

 

There are some Player Instructions (PIs) that enhance this tactic. While the tactic is set to play narrow, all the wide players (Fullbacks and Inverted Wingers) are instructed to stay wider. This gives the tactic proper width while remaining very compact in the center of the pitch. The result is high-possession, strong defending and effective counter attacking - the style I like the most. 

Just leaving this here someone might find it interesting or useful.

Edited June 2 by John_sol