AI Resting Key Players

[silentwars]

I'm finding the AI on the current FM is resting key players when they have 3 games in a week - to the point of not even putting them on the bench.

I've tried using the in game editor to 'remove all injuries' so the players are at peak fitness but they are still getting rested by the AI manager.

This is making the game too easy. For example, I just played Blackburn who decided to rest Szmodics and play a player from the U21's squad instead (See screenshot). 

Is there anyway around this? I'm don't mind using the editor, but wouldn't know what I'd need to change.

[silentwars]

This from the game against my side, as you can see the AI decided to rest 7 of their usual starting 11 with 6 not even in the match day squad.

Wish SI would take the time to sort these issues out, rather than adding useless features every installment. 

[wazzaflow10]

need more context. Who are you? What kind of match was it?

[silentwars]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

need more context. Who are you? What kind of match was it?

I'm managing Reading, it was a league match. 

This is their fixture list. As I said I had used to editor to return Szmodics to full fitness as I thought he might get rested and I wanted it to be as tough as possible. So to see the AI not even put him on the bench is frustrating. 

They didn't rotate much at all for their other midweek games, as soon as they face me they drop over half the regulars. Even though they're bang in form. 

 

[wazzaflow10]

Are you/they running away with the league or in the relegation zone or both in direct competition with each other? The game doesn't know what team you are managing.  Its certainly not random though as its been hinted by SI that lower priority games will see more rotations. So either they thought well no chance at this one, better to save our team for matches we can actually win or we should win this easily so we'll rotate. 

Best to upload the save prior to the game without any editor modifications to the bug forums. You'll probably get a better explanation there if something is wrong.

I'm also assuming you're not using any other mods - while useful SI can't really comment on/fix effects from 3rd party changes.

[silentwars]

2 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Are you/they running away with the league or in the relegation zone or both in direct competition with each other? The game doesn't know what team you are managing.  Its certainly not random though as its been hinted by SI that lower priority games will see more rotations. So either they thought well no chance at this one, better to save our team for matches we can actually win or we should win this easily so we'll rotate. 

Best to upload the save prior to the game without any editor modifications to the bug forums. You'll probably get a better explanation there if something is wrong.

I'm also assuming you're not using any other mods - while useful SI can't really comment on/fix effects from 3rd party changes.

My team is in 8th, there's is in 13th. We'd also lost 2 of our last 3 matches so I would of thought the AI would/should of seen it as winnable. I don't have a problem with the AI rotating, it's when they drop the key players completely from the squad even though they are at peak fitness. 

[wazzaflow10]

50 minutes ago, silentwars said:

My team is in 8th, there's is in 13th. We'd also lost 2 of our last 3 matches so I would of thought the AI would/should of seen it as winnable. I don't have a problem with the AI rotating, it's when they drop the key players completely from the squad even though they are at peak fitness. 

The only other thing would be if the injury rating was very high. You can have peak fitness but be very highly susceptible to injury. Best to raise it as a bug so that they can have an example to tweak how it works so that it isn't run everyone into the ground and then sit half the squad.

[silentwars]

4 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

The only other thing would be if the injury rating was very high. You can have peak fitness but be very highly susceptible to injury. Best to raise it as a bug so that they can have an example to tweak how it works so that it isn't run everyone into the ground and then sit half the squad.

I just took over to check their injury risk and they're all on high - so it may well be that. 

Still think SI needs to look into this, because it's very rare for a club to drop half the squad from the team entirely for a winnable league fixture.

Don't think there's much point in reporting it, as there's not going to be another patch. Hopefully  they improve this for FM25.

[wazzaflow10]

19 minutes ago, silentwars said:

I just took over to check their injury risk and they're all on high - so it may well be that. 

Still think SI needs to look into this, because it's very rare for a club to drop half the squad from the team entirely for a winnable league fixture.

Don't think there's much point in reporting it, as there's not going to be another patch. Hopefully  they improve this for FM25.

They'll still use it for future reference. Sometimes its hard to spot a logical error until it happens in the game. FM25 would still be using the same logical concepts.

[silentwars]

I just loaded up my next league match (4 days later) against Bristol City, this time they've dropped 5 regular starters from their starting 11 and not placed them on the bench.

Can't play like this, so I'm going to have to quit this save. Might load up a league with less fixtures or just wait for a future edition of FM where these issues have been resolved. 

 

[silentwars]

17 hours ago, silentwars said:

I just loaded up my next league match (4 days later) against Bristol City, this time they've dropped 5 regular starters from their starting 11 and not placed them on the bench.

Can't play like this, so I'm going to have to quit this save. Might load up a league with less fixtures or just wait for a future edition of FM where these issues have been resolved. 

 

Just retried this, this time using the editor to restore them to fitness and the AI has now selected them. 

...

Now back to the same problem 

Even the GK gets a rest!

Edited May 25 by silentwars

[jcafcwbb]

I am currently playing as Manchester United and I am second in the League and in the quarters of the Europa League. I am rotating like crazy, easily four or five outfield players each match, to avoid injury and fatigue. I have noticed that doing like seriously cuts down injuries.

In real life teams like Manchester City and Liverpool rotate a lot as well for the same reasons. Yes, they have their first eleven for the big matches but they will rotate to keep players fresh.

There may be room for SI to code certain players who do not get rotated as often, the star players, but I do not think what you are seeing is that wrong compared to real football. Even my team, in real life, in meaningless EFL League Two matches rotates players and other teams do as well.

[Cloud9]

On 24/05/2024 at 01:42, silentwars said:

I'm finding the AI on the current FM is resting key players when they have 3 games in a week - to the point of not even putting them on the bench.

I've tried using the in game editor to 'remove all injuries' so the players are at peak fitness but they are still getting rested by the AI manager.

This is making the game too easy. For example, I just played Blackburn who decided to rest Szmodics and play a player from the U21's squad instead (See screenshot). 

Is there anyway around this? I'm don't mind using the editor, but wouldn't know what I'd need to change.

Three games a week is too many for any player to play. The Championship is brutal for the high game quanitity, you need a big squad and lots of rotations to make it through the season. 

Proper rotation is key to any squad and the AI needs to do it too. You can run your players into the ground but you will mess up their development and certainly you can ruin their season at a fairly unrepairable point if you push them over the edge. 

Add "Fatigue, Injury risk, and Match load" to selection view when you're doing your own rotations and you will get a better idea of how much a player should be playing. Playing players in the Red is a big risk and if they're on anything other than fresh fatigue it's not worth starting them. Once a "jaded" tag pops up, it's gone too far already so you need to be proactive with your rotations. I would recommend leaving training as normal the day after a match and giving all the players who played a day off. 

Redding also suck, so they're taking the opportunity to rotate against weaker opposition. For context Redding finished 17th this year in League One this year. If you've just gained promotion, prominent/established Championship clubs won't take you seriously, which you can use to your advantage at first. 

It's not a bug or something you need to fix in the editor. 

Edited May 25 by Cloud9

[silentwars]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Three games a week is too many for any player to play. The Championship is brutal for the high game quanitity, you need a big squad and lots of rotations to make it through the season. 

Proper rotation is key to any squad and the AI needs to do it too. You can run your players into the ground but you will mess up their development and certainly you can ruin their season at a fairly unrepairable point if you push them over the edge. 

Add "Fatigue, Injury risk, and Match load" to selection view when you're doing your own rotations and you will get a better idea of how much a player should be playing. Playing players in the Red is a big risk and if they're on anything other than fresh fatigue it's not worth starting them. Once a "jaded" tag pops up, it's gone too far already so you need to be proactive with your rotations. I would recommend leaving training as normal the day after a match and giving all the players who played a day off. 

Redding also suck, so they're taking the opportunity to rotate against weaker opposition. For context Redding finished 17th this year in League One this year. If you've just gained promotion, prominent/established Championship clubs won't take you seriously, which you can use to your advantage at first. 

It's not a bug or something you need to fix in the editor. 

Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all. The AI has completely the majority of the starters from the match day squad - I follow the Championship religiously and this does not happen IRL. Yes, you get rotation but not 7 first team players dropped completely from the squad when you're in form. You then add that the AI doesn't even have them on the bench, and in case of the AMC position played an U21 player who had never started a league match before, when they had a senior squad player who had only started 1 league match available. They also didn't do this against any other team when they had 3 matches in a week. 

Edited May 25 by silentwars

[silentwars]

3 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

In real life teams like Manchester City and Liverpool rotate a lot as well for the same reasons. Yes, they have their first eleven for the big matches but they will rotate to keep players fresh.

Yes they rotate, but when do they drop key players entirely from the squad? Key players should at least be on the bench, especially when I've set them to fully fit. It's also frustrating that the AI appears to be doing this against my team and not the other teams.

[Cloud9]

4 minutes ago, silentwars said:

Yes they rotate, but when do they drop key players entirely from the squad? Key players should at least be on the bench, especially when I've set them to fully fit. It's also frustrating that the AI appears to be doing this against my team and not the other teams.

Again you have not seen them to be fully fit, you're just looking at the surface of their fitness whereas the factors I mention can be in the Red Zone + significant fatigue. A full condition bar does not mean they're ready to play. The AI is looking to develop of their youngsters more this year (to varying success still) and this is part of that as well. It's a positive change and makes the AI more competitive over the course of a season.

Importantly they're giving them the day off because they perceive you as very weak and an opportunity to send key players on a break since they will be playing again in two days. Being in the match day squad is different from being given a rest. If your performances improve over the course of the season teams will take you more seriously. There is no pro/anti player bias in FM.

Edited May 25 by Cloud9

[silentwars]

12 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Again you have not seen them to be fully fit, you're just looking at the surface of their fitness whereas the factors I mention can be in the Red Zone + significant fatigue. A full condition bar does not mean they're ready to play. The AI is looking to develop of their youngsters more this year (to varying success still) and this is part of that as well. It's a positive change and makes the AI more competitive over the course of a season.

Importantly they're giving them the day off because they perceive you as very weak and an opportunity to send key players on a break since they will be playing again in two days. Being in the match day squad is different from being given a rest. If your performances improve over the course of the season teams will take you more seriously. There is no pro/anti player bias in FM.

My team had only lost 2 matches in 14. They had Rotherham in the match before, who are 19th in the table and predicted for relegation and played all the regulars. The player they played in the AMC position is about to turn 21 and that was his first start - even though they've had 3 league cup matches he could of played - so the AI can't rate him that highly. 

If you look at the dates of the previous matches (in the screenshot), they've had a few midweek matches and they haven't rotated and then as soon as they face me they rotate nearly everyone.

If it was a one off then I'd accept it, but then played Bristol City & Sunderland in the next matches and had the exact same problem. 

Edited May 25 by silentwars

[silentwars]

@Cloud9 Also, when I played Sunderland they even rested the goalkeeper. When does that every happen IRL? And again, why does it have to be against my team and not in other matches? 

[Cloud9]

5 minutes ago, silentwars said:

My team had only lost 2 matches in 14. They had Rotherham in the match before, who are 19th in the table and predicted for relegation and played all the regulars. The player they played in the AMC position is about to turn 21 and that was his first start - even though they've had 3 league cup matches he could of played - so the AI can't rate him that highly. 

If you look at the dates of the previous matches (in the screenshot), they've had a few midweek matches and they haven't rotated and then as soon as they face me they rotate nearly everyone.

If it was a one off then I'd accept it, but then played Bristol City & Sunderland in the next matches and had the exact same problem. 

Look at the season preview, they perceive you as very very weak and are taking the opportunity to rotate/develop youth (which is what we should want the AI to do). The fact that you are performing so well w/Reading is a credit to you as manager. My guess would be your odds on to go down 1000-1.

They will adjust as you continue to overperform but you're in October. Enjoy it! They will play more serious squads and leave less space in behind as your form continues.

Edited May 25 by Cloud9

[silentwars]

Just now, Cloud9 said:

Look at the season preview, they perceive you as very very weak and are taking the opportunity to rotate/develop youth (which is what we should want the AI to do). 

Predicted to finish 7th...

[Cloud9]

Id check from the season start for a true reflection. You're asking for help / an explanation for why your seeing what's occurring, but aren't listening when it's given. 

If you don't like it, go report a perceived bug, but all of the factors I've listed above is why you're seeing is happening. 

[silentwars]

1 minute ago, Cloud9 said:

Id check from the season start for a true reflection. You're asking for help / an explanation for why your seeing what's occurring, but aren't listening when it's given. 

If you don't like it, go report a perceived bug, but all of the factors I've listed above is why you're seeing is happening. 

You're not giving me an explanation as to why these teams are resting players against me and not the other teams? You've said it's because they perceive me as weaker but they played their strongest team against Rotherham (in the match before) even though they'd had less rest days between that and their last match and Rotherham are predicted to finish 23rd. So if you're theory was correct then they should of had some rotation in that match - which they didn't.  

[silentwars]

I've been doing some experiments and it appears daveincid's realism editor data is what's causing all the fixtures to be bundled together. I've loaded up a save without the data and gone on holiday to that same season and the fixtures are better spread out. 

@Daveincid

Screenshot 1 - without the realism pack

2 - with 

[El Payaso]

I think I have seen people also raising this happening in AI vs AI matches, even for example Champions league finals. 

If it is a thing that mainly happens when the AI is facing a human player, this is again a clear signal to me that the game doesn't treat human players the same way as the AI. 

[silentwars]

3 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I think I have seen people also raising this happening in AI vs AI matches, even for example Champions league finals. 

If it is a thing that mainly happens when the AI is facing a human player, this is again a clear signal to me that the game doesn't treat human players the same way as the AI. 

I've had it on a save this year where the AI rotates for a WC final (against another AI). It's definitely an area of the game that needs to be looked at. 

[Daveincid]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb silentwars:

I've been doing some experiments and it appears daveincid's realism editor data is what's causing all the fixtures to be bundled together. I've loaded up a save without the data and gone on holiday to that same season and the fixtures are better spread out. 

@Daveincid

Screenshot 1 - without the realism pack

2 - with 

This was Swansea City's schedule in 2022/23


so I'm not really sure where the issue should be. Depending on cup's etc, that's simply how it is in today's football

[silentwars]

Just now, Daveincid said:

This was Swansea City's schedule in 2022/23


so I'm not really sure where the issue should be. Depending on cup's etc, that's simply how it is in today's football

Do you know which part of the pack it is that affects the fixtures? As I'd like to play with the data just with the original fixture layouts. As unfortunately it's leading to the AI resting key players against me. 

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb silentwars:

Do you know which part of the pack it is that affects the fixtures? As I'd like to play with the data just with the original fixture layouts. As unfortunately it's leading to the AI resting key players against me. 

None of my file affect it. As I just wrote, it also depends on other results like cup etc.

[silentwars]

-

Edited May 26 by silentwars

[NineCloudNine]

20 hours ago, silentwars said:

Sorry, but I don't agree with you at all. The AI has completely the majority of the starters from the match day squad - I follow the Championship religiously and this does not happen IRL. Yes, you get rotation but not 7 first team players dropped completely from the squad when you're in form.

I reckon what might be happening here is that the AI is *not* rotating properly/proactively during the season, so a bunch of players have hit the threshold for being rested all at once. It is likely that the algorithm includes more than just current fitness levels, which would explain why restoring them to full fitness isn't always enough to stop the mass resting.

An algorithm for having the AI rotate players as intelligently as a human manager would be very difficult to write. There's a bunch of subjective criteria as well as objective measures like fitness, player attributes, alternative team combinations etc. That doesn't mean SI shouldn't or couldn't do it, just that I'm not surprised it's a challenge.

Edited May 26 by NineCloudNine

[silentwars]

19 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I reckon what might be happening here is that the AI is *not* rotating properly/proactively during the season, so a bunch of players have hit the threshold for being rested all at once. It is likely that the algorithm includes more than just current fitness levels, which would explain why restoring them to full fitness isn't always enough to stop the mass resting.

An algorithm for having the AI rotate players as intelligently as a human manager would be very difficult to write. There's a bunch of subjective criteria as well as objective measures like fitness, player attributes, alternative team combinations etc. That doesn't mean SI shouldn't or couldn't do it, just that I'm not surprised it's a challenge.

To be fair, I think it's primarily happening on this save as the fixtures were being bundled together due to an editor pack I was using. Ideally, the AI would of had smarter rotation but I'll just reload a new game either without the data pack or in a league with less matches. So the issue should be solved.

Thanks for your take