(SOLVED) Getting an 'x' placed sub league to work with uneven group numbers

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

I have set up a third placed teams league table at the end of a group stage phase of an international competition. I want the top team of this group to qualify for the finals, along with the 14 already qualified from the group stages. Despite having a working second placed teams league for the World Cup Qualifying for Europe, I simply cannot replicate it for my AFC Asian Cup qualifiers. 

The third placed League stage has 7 teams (all teams that finished 3rd in their groups. I want the best one of these. 6 of the groups have 4 teams, and 1 group has 5. I cannot stop the editor working out the league using all 8 games played for the team from the 5 team group. I have specified that I only want min and max of 6 games to use. The problem lies with me ticking the carry 100% of the points over from the previous stage. If i untick this the league table doesn't acknowledge any results and they have all played 0 games. Any idea what I can do to get them all to just show 6 games (ie not counting the last team in the 5th team group)?

As I said I have this working in the UEFA qualifiers, but despite copying what I have there, it won't do the business with my AFC qualifiers.

Edited June 22 by \'Appy \'Ammer
updated title to solved

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

When I change this to include the results from stage 1 I get this:

The European version of this does not have that Transfer Standings ticked and yet it works. 🤔🤔🤔

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

On 26/05/2024 at 13:19, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

The European version of this does not have that Transfer Standings ticked and yet it works. 🤔🤔🤔

I am starting to think that there are hard coded devils at play. 

[rusty217]

Do you need to have it as a separate stage? You can set it up to give the best 3rd placed team (excluding extra games for larger groups) in the background pretty easily.

There, that will tell it to give one extra team that wouldn't have qualified a qualification place. The number of teams in group is the important part there. You want it set to 4, then it will only take the top 4 teams in the group in account for points, so any fixtures against the 5th team in the group with 5 teams won't count.

Edited May 28 by rusty217

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

 

 

I have this:

And I added this:

But then I got a crash when testing.

I'll have a play around

Edited May 28 by \'Appy \'Ammer

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Removing stage 2 totally seems to have done the trick. The down side of that is I don't get to see a third placed teams league table, but the plus side is I think it is working. I am testing alot to see if it is counting the group with 5 teams in because as yet the 3rd placed team in that group have yet to qualify.

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Well I've spent alot of time on this and really would appreciate someone telling me if I have misunderstood how the best placed teams work when the group sizes are different. I assume that any points accrued against the 5th placed team are removed. So if the 3rd placed team has 13 points and they drew and beat the bottom club, for the purposes of best 3rd placed team they would have a total of 9 ?

If I am correct then unfortunately there may be a bug which is stopping this working, as I keep getting a crash. 

This is what I have on the screen:

The Last group index is group 7 which is the 5 team group. All the others have 4. Continual testing does not have the group 7 team ever qualifying when on occasions they should. I assume that that is because I have 4 entered in the box 3rd from the left. Therefore I can assume it is only checking for groups within the Index range that have 4 teams in. I believe the box to the left of that is the one to enter 4 into, as that would check the teams in the group up to a maximum of 4. BUT whenever I use that box the editor crashes on the next test. If anyone out there knows if I am doing something wrong to encourage the crash then please let me know. This particular issue is driving me nuts and I have been at it now for at least 2 weeks, and I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP!!!!!

ps thanks @rusty217 for pointing me in the direction of the Extra Fate Places area.

Edited May 28 by \'Appy \'Ammer
angry misspelling

[rusty217]

9 hours ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

Well I've spent alot of time on this and really would appreciate someone telling me if I have misunderstood how the best placed teams work when the group sizes are different. I assume that any points accrued against the 5th placed team are removed. So if the 3rd placed team has 13 points and they drew and beat the bottom club, for the purposes of best 3rd placed team they would have a total of 9 ?

If I am correct then unfortunately there may be a bug which is stopping this working, as I keep getting a crash. 

This is what I have on the screen:

The Last group index is group 7 which is the 5 team group. All the others have 4. Continual testing does not have the group 7 team ever qualifying when on occasions they should. I assume that that is because I have 4 entered in the box 3rd from the left. Therefore I can assume it is only checking for groups within the Index range that have 4 teams in. I believe the box to the left of that is the one to enter 4 into, as that would check the teams in the group up to a maximum of 4. BUT whenever I use that box the editor crashes on the next test. If anyone out there knows if I am doing something wrong to encourage the crash then please let me know. This particular issue is driving me nuts and I have been at it now for at least 2 weeks, and I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP!!!!!

ps thanks @rusty217 for pointing me in the direction of the Extra Fate Places area.

"I assume that any points accrued against the 5th placed team are removed. So if the 3rd placed team has 13 points and they drew and beat the bottom club, for the purposes of best 3rd placed team they would have a total of 9 ?"

Yep, that's how it works.

The issue there is you've excluded group 7 completely. Last Group Index should be 7 (or you could leave both first/last blank so it just includes all groups). The number of teams in group will automatically exclude the 5th team in group 7, and adjust points accordingly, no need to do anything extra there.

The first/last group index are only needed when you want the extra places to be for a specific set of groups, rather than all. eg. the Asian Champions League has separate fate place setups for groups 0-4 and 5-9 to ensure both East/West get the same number of places.

And the Maximum Teams in group to check is to limit the number of teams that can get the extra place per group. Not necessary for your situation since you're only giving 1 extra qualifying place anyway. But otherwise, setting it to 1 would mean the extra place mini-table only takes 3rd placed teams. Setting it to 2 would allow both 3rd and 4th placed teams in, so a 4th placed team that did particularly well could potentially get a qualification place ahead of a 3rd placed team with less points.

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

Thanks for the very detailed explanation @rusty217, however there's a couple of things that just aren't right (and I still can't do what I'm trying to do!!). 

The Group Index 6 is Group 7. Index 0 is Group 1. I was having a play around with the settings to try and fully understand what things do. I set the extra fate places to read like so: 

 

I wanted to see if group 7 would be looked at to get the 3 places I had set for this test. As you can see it did take the 3rd, 4th, and 5th placed teams. So group index 6 is group 7.

The number of Teams in Group box will only check for groups with that number of teams. So if 4 is there it will check all groups with 4 teams in. 5 will check groups with 5 in, and when I put 3 in, it could not find any groups with just 3 teams in so it did not pick a best placed team at all. I also realise why I was getting a crash when I put 4 in the Maximum Teams in Group To Check. After your explanation I realised that 4 teams would be asking for 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th positions in all the groups. 6 groups only have 4 teams , and 1 group 5 so that caused the crash as what I was asking for was impossible.

So now I have a better understanding of what does what, I went back to the drawing board and used these settings:

I was hoping this would work. It did check all the 3rd placed teams in each of the 7 groups BUT failed to deduct points from the team in the group with 5 teams. 

Oman had beaten Timor-Leste twice, 3-0 and 2-0, so their points tally should drop to 7. This would mean that Kuwait in Group 3 should have taken the final qualification spot.

Highly frustrating, but I am not defeated. There must be something else I need to do to get this to work properly. Thanks for your input @rusty217, it has helped me to understand what is and isn't working. I think things would work perfectly if all my groups had the same amount of teams in. This is why I am convinced there is something else I need to be doing. I am going to sleep on it!! 🤔🤔😴💤

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

FINALLY...after about 6 weeks trying to solve this, I have finally managed it. For anyone wishing to know then this is how...

This screen needs to have the Use Sub League Table active and not the Extra Fate Places. I don't know why but Extra Fate Places only seems to work when the groups are equal in number of teams. 

This next screen is what has hamstrung me big time for a long time. You need to have the box ticked that allows the stage just to be setup. Much to my detriment, if you do not tick this the 3rd place league table does not work.

Here, Palestine finished 3rd in the group that had 5 teams.

And here you can see the 3rd place league table has adjusted their stats so that the matches with the bottom team in the group have been ignored.

I am now at one with the world 😎⚒️