How impactful is tiredness?

[Grunners]

I have a ciuple of questions regarding tiredness in players, and training. For context, I'm at the business end of the season, competing on three fronts, currently placed 4th in the Premier League. This is my upcoming fixture list, played on a weekend-midweek-weekend pattern, with no weeks off:

• Europa League QF 1st Leg
• PL match vs 5th
• Europa League QF 2nd Leg
• FA Cup SF
• PL match vs 3rd
• PL match vs 6th

All big 'must win' games. Historically what I would have done here is rotate near enough my entire side each game, but then know that I'm risking the result of at least half the matches.

Firstly, to what degree will a "tired" player (partial green heart) drop off from their peak performance? As a general rule of thumb is it best to play your 1st choice tired, over your backup fully fit? 

Secondly, if I strip out much of the physical/technical training sessions and replace with recovery or time off, will this come back to bite me (e.g. does the game say "aha! no defending training this week? now you can't defend!")?

Appreciate there is no hard and fast answer here, but very interested in some insights as to how the game handles fatigue and training. Thanks in advance.

[Vođi]

18 ore fa, Grunners ha scritto:

(e.g. does the game say "aha! no defending training this week? now you can't defend!")?

Nope definitelly not, most of the training is long term.
The only case could be trainin (or not training set pieces / penalties) could have some influence.

Personally in such cases I try to keep it relaxed, no physical training, more of rest, maybe some team building ecc.
 

As for the condition indicator, in such situations it depends. If the player is in form, I would play him even if he would be a bit lower, and most likely sub him around 55th-ish minute.
My approach in general is "you need to feel the squad", as some players need more rest to perform, some can play 3 games in 7 days and still perform (and survive).

One thing I wouldn't do is to use 2 different XIs for different matches.

[Grunners]

Thanks @Vođi, this is very helpful. Funny you say you wouldn't do is swap two XIs in and out each game; this level of rotation is how I've basically been running my team for 11 in-game seasons! I've always prioritised being fully fit over anything else, but will test your suggestions above over the coming weeks in-game, and see how I get on.  

[NineCloudNine]

Wherever possible I aim to have three players for every two positions and to rotate them so each does full match - off at 60 mins - on at 60 mins in rotation. I rarely do wholesale changes, unless it’s a really unimportant game before a really big one.

For a sequence of games like the one you describe you can (probably should) do no physical training at all, just recovery, tactics, set pieces and match prep. That’s an accurate reflection of what happens IRL.

Managing rotation to keep the squad fresh and happy with their playing time is absolutely pivotal to success in my experience.

[Grunners]

Thank you @NineCloudNine, that's an interesting approach! I'm playing FM22 so I only have three subs to utilise, but I like that rotating but within games appraoch.

This has been instructive, cheers again to you both!

[lied90]

On 27/05/2024 at 15:15, Grunners said:

Firstly, to what degree will a "tired" player (partial green heart) drop off from their peak performance? As a general rule of thumb is it best to play your 1st choice tired, over your backup fully fit? 

This can give you a general idea as to how important fitness is:

https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/

[Cloud9]

11 hours ago, lied90 said:

This can give you a general idea as to how important fitness is:

https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/

The bottom line is incredibly important. Tests like this are difficult as they don't indicate things like the all pivotal pre-season the player's have gone through. Fatigue in the player is not measured only through condition of the player. 

@Grunners add "Injury risk, Fatigue and Match Load" to your team selection. Don't play players in the red whenever possible. If a player gets the "Tired or Jaded" orange tag, it's likely too late. 

Again the pre-season is super important for managing fatigue, particularly past Christmas. I would say the three biggest factors in your save for performance are player happiness, player rotation and the pre-season.

Edited May 30 by Cloud9

[santy001]

Tiredness is a small but important piece of the jigsaw and as mentioned fatigue is something very much to keep in mind. Tiredness can at times be a little deceptive because you can get away with it at points, particularly early season, until fatigue sets in. 

I feel this is possibly an area many people come unstuck at without realising after that blistering start to a season with a high-demand tactic only to falter mid/late season. Because of the chaotic schedule there will be points if you're at a larger team when your players can go 3 years without a meaningful break. Through a Euros/Copa Libertadores, Club World Championship & then World Cup cycle. So recognising the impact that is having and finding a rotation to give key players some time off with a holiday but not compromising your side can be very beneficial.

[santy001]

On 30/05/2024 at 12:35, lied90 said:

This can give you a general idea as to how important fitness is:

https://fm-arena.com/table/20-condition-morale-testing/

I don't use FM Arena so I may be missing some content but when I took a look at that link I couldn't even understand how that link providing gives any meaningful information. Yes it shows perfect morale and perfect condition are doing better, but it's all absolutely dreadful figures. It just confirms what any player can understand from the off, better condition and better morale is generally better.

The points totals achieved by these teams are poor, the goal difference is poor, while the goals for is strong the goals conceded in all the listed values are relegation candidate levels. That test is apparently showing that with the best conditions you can on average achieve the 4th worst defence in the league (compared to this seasons table). If the best case scenario from tests across 75 seasons of play is 52.8 points the fitness/morale wasn't doing much in the first place.

These figures alone suggest I'm missing some context but there's no explanation on the page so while if you do a deep dive and spend time learning how FM Arena is doing stuff it might provide some insight that is more meaningful, it still then falls at the hurdle of not being indicative in any way how you need to manage and train a side through pre-season and then through the fixture congestion a season presents.

[wazzaflow10]

On 30/05/2024 at 15:47, Cloud9 said:

The bottom line is incredibly important. Tests like this are difficult as they don't indicate things like the all pivotal pre-season the player's have gone through. Fatigue in the player is not measured only through condition of the player. 

@Grunners add "Injury risk, Fatigue and Match Load" to your team selection. Don't play players in the red whenever possible. If a player gets the "Tired or Jaded" orange tag, it's likely too late. 

Again the pre-season is super important for managing fatigue, particularly past Christmas. I would say the three biggest factors in your save for performance are player happiness, player rotation and the pre-season.

Generally what's the best set up for preseason? As in what should I be aiming to achieve for each player? I find it hard to get everyone to match fitness by season start. There's either not enough games to get everyone to full fitness or too many that players can't recover in time.

I also feel like the game doesn't represent a good mechanism for when the WC or Euro's take place. I try to replicate real life in giving players who went X number of weeks on holiday based on how far they went in the tournament and how much they played.

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Generally what's the best set up for preseason? As in what should I be aiming to achieve for each player? I find it hard to get everyone to match fitness by season start. There's either not enough games to get everyone to full fitness or too many that players can't recover in time.

I also feel like the game doesn't represent a good mechanism for when the WC or Euro's take place. I try to replicate real life in giving players who went X number of weeks on holiday based on how far they went in the tournament and how much they played.

I train the players as hard as possible w/out breaking them. Getting good Physios and Sports Scientists helps. I'm not looking at individualized goals for the players in the pre-season (unless I'm looking to retrain them to a new position), it's just about getting in as much high intensity training as possible while barely getting fully match fit by week 1 of the season. However, I will micro manage players if they injury prone in the pre-season. I'm not really focused on player development in this part of the season. 

Usually that entails two initial weeks of almost entirely physical training, and then moving into additional scheduled friendlies into the pre-camp (which provides a small buff I believe) alongside additional training. That usually ends up being two games a week in peak periods of pre-season but again if you're running a smaller squad, prioritize training. I play the matches out against fairly weak teams and then just sub everyone at half time so players are getting match fitness up. How many friendlies just comes down to how big the squad is. I tail off the friendlies (one a week) and keep the training fairly high at the end of the pre-season usually the match week or two before the season starts.

Players are totally run into the ground IRL, I think Newcastle played a friendly against Tottenham the week after the last match week and then immediately departed for a tour in Australia. 

It's fairly hard to pick up serious injuries so even doing things like sticking match practice directly before a friendly is something I'd recommend. Just make sure you work in a couple of recovery sessions and the odd rest, but I would push yourself beyond what feels comfortable/the players are capable of doing. 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I train the players as hard as possible w/out breaking them. Getting good Physios and Sports Scientists helps. I'm not looking at individualized goals for the players in the pre-season (unless I'm looking to retrain them to a new position), it's just about getting in as much high intensity training as possible while barely getting fully match fit by week 1 of the season. However, I will micro manage players if they injury prone in the pre-season. I'm not really focused on player development in this part of the season. 

Usually that entails two initial weeks of almost entirely physical training, and then moving into additional scheduled friendlies into the pre-camp (which provides a small buff I believe) alongside additional training. That usually ends up being two games a week in peak periods of pre-season but again if you're running a smaller squad, prioritize training. I play the matches out against fairly weak teams and then just sub everyone at half time so players are getting match fitness up. How many friendlies just comes down to how big the squad is. I tail off the friendlies (one a week) and keep the training fairly high at the end of the pre-season usually the match week or two before the season starts.

Players are totally run into the ground IRL, I think Newcastle played a friendly against Tottenham the week after the last match week and then immediately departed for a tour in Australia. 

It's fairly hard to pick up serious injuries so even doing things like sticking match practice directly before a friendly is something I'd recommend. Just make sure you work in a couple of recovery sessions and the odd rest, but I would push yourself beyond what feels comfortable/the players are capable of doing. 

Thanks for the additional info. I've played concurrent saves with dave's increased injury mod and one without - obviously with increased injuries more severe injuries are possible but I'll try upping the intensity next preseason I have for both. In a 21 save I remember barely getting to/through September with enough players and had to tone training way down. That might have spooked me a bit with preseason intensity.

Also, the last few years I've been playing as bigger teams than a decade or so ago due to work and children. I've been enamoured with youth players and giving them chance to show me their abilities. I should be more focused on getting my first team in shape minus one or two special youngsters that might actually break into the team at some point within that year.

[Cloud9]

On 01/06/2024 at 20:49, wazzaflow10 said:

Thanks for the additional info. I've played concurrent saves with dave's increased injury mod and one without - obviously with increased injuries more severe injuries are possible but I'll try upping the intensity next preseason I have for both. In a 21 save I remember barely getting to/through September with enough players and had to tone training way down. That might have spooked me a bit with preseason intensity.

Also, the last few years I've been playing as bigger teams than a decade or so ago due to work and children. I've been enamoured with youth players and giving them chance to show me their abilities. I should be more focused on getting my first team in shape minus one or two special youngsters that might actually break into the team at some point within that year.

I haven't played with that mod so I'm not sure how you'd need to modify your pre-season to adapt to its demands. Overall the general idea should remain the same, ie. preseason needs to be a time where you push the players really hard via training sessions or you'll experience a drop off around Christmas. 

I feel you on the game being demanding of time and the highlights of youth development  I'm thinking of just doing a youth only Southampton save next year to both those points. I think that will provide an interesting mix of upfront tactical tinkering + challenge in developing the academy kids into first team players. 

Edited June 6 by Cloud9

[wazzaflow10]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I haven't played with that mod so I'm not sure how you'd need to modify your pre-season to adapt to its demands. Overall the general idea should remain the same, ie. preseason needs to be a time where you push the players really hard via training sessions or you'll experience a drop off around Christmas. 

I feel you on the game being demanding of time and the highlights of youth development  I'm thinking of just doing a youth only Southampton save next year to both those points. I think that will provide an interesting mix of upfront tactical tinkering + challenge in developing the academy kids into first team players. 

I try to bring the first team back in slowly with match fitness. So a lot of the early games are either squad or breakthrough players getting minutes with first team players coming off the bench at halftime or later.

Whats typically your target for number of preseason games? I let the AssMan schedule them - I'm too lazy to do them myself. And I'm never sure if its too much and there's not enough training time or if its not enough game time and that's why I tend to get in trouble since only a handful of my starting XI are truly match fit by the time the league starts.

[Cloud9]

49 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I try to bring the first team back in slowly with match fitness. So a lot of the early games are either squad or breakthrough players getting minutes with first team players coming off the bench at halftime or later.

Whats typically your target for number of preseason games? I let the AssMan schedule them - I'm too lazy to do them myself. And I'm never sure if its too much and there's not enough training time or if its not enough game time and that's why I tend to get in trouble since only a handful of my starting XI are truly match fit by the time the league starts.

I think different competitions have more/less pre-season so it's a little difficult to stay in general...for example my first season w/Sheffield Wednesday kicked off July 3rd in the Championship...with the season starting August 4th. I believe the Premier league is scheduled to start on the 15th, which would give you a significantly longer window to prepare. 

I canceled my first friendly and ran an entirely physical week of training (left in the inter squad friendly for immersion)...that left only 3 full weeks until the first match week so I ran two friendlies a week for two weeks and then dropped the load to one the week before the season started. The championship is pretty brutal like that, you're not going to hit optimal by the time you start...but the goal is just to prioritize the starting 11 a bit and try to get them close enough. 45 minute half w/subs at halftime is what I would recommend when possible.

I crammed in as much high intensity training as possible in the weeks themselves (very little border lining on no rest/recovery). Note that putting in "rests" into the schedule will "greatly reduce" sharpness. I like to use them liberally in the season, but often prefer a couple "recovery" sessions in pre-season to that end and for injury prevention. 

I guess that comes out to 6 games in the pre-season which is pretty low, in an ideal world I'd probably shoot for 9, but that depends on the size of the squad. Remember that complete match fitness for the first game is the secondary goal of pre-season...the 1. priority is to get in high intently training so fitness will last. W/ that in mind err to less games whenever possible and load the the high intensity training sessions where you can get away with it.

If you find yourself reaching pre-season comfortably w/match fitness, just take a few off next year unless you increase the size of the squad. 

[wazzaflow10]

7 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I guess that comes out to 6 games in the pre-season which is pretty low, in an ideal world I'd probably shoot for 9, but that depends on the size of the squad. Remember that complete match fitness for the first game is the secondary goal of pre-season...the 1. priority is to get in high intently training so fitness will last. W/ that in mind err to less games whenever possible and load the the high intensity training sessions where you can get away with it.

I'll try this approach next. I might be backing off too soon for fear of injury.

Last question - for players coming back from summer tournaments, do you send them on holiday after or just integrate them back into the squad?

Edited June 7 by wazzaflow10