Empty Heart: Tiredness during Matches

[phd_angel]

Even as the heart icon is nearly empty (in the red) in latter phases of the match, players are still running around, apparently very fast and agile. Same is true with injuries, as players seem unaffected. 

Is this just an animation problem, or do you actually notice that the players are underperforming due to fatigue?

[rristola]

I think that this is one of those old questions left unanswered.

But, if so many of us, players, have thought this, there must be something in it.

 

Because I would like FM to be a simulation, so SI should analyze statistics.

Are players as fast near the end of games as in the beginning, amount of fatigue related injuries, aso.

This might also be caused by SI concentrating on top leagues. There players might more likely be able to control their fatigue levels.

Those of us who like to manage in League Two or lower, or in lower leagues using mods, might wonder this fatigue thing even more.

 

What I am afraid the most is, that those math equations in the game engine just might be too complex or even too complicated.

So, that making only LITTLE adjustments could change game a lot. And therefore SI would be unwilling to adjust these.

Or, what the h*ll was that what happened with GK injuries (when FM24 was launched)?

 

What is the truth, IDK.

[phd_angel]

5 hours ago, rristola said:

I think that this is one of those old questions left unanswered.

But, if so many of us, players, have thought this, there must be something in it.

 

Because I would like FM to be a simulation, so SI should analyze statistics.

Are players as fast near the end of games as in the beginning, amount of fatigue related injuries, aso.

This might also be caused by SI concentrating on top leagues. There players might more likely be able to control their fatigue levels.

Those of us who like to manage in League Two or lower, or in lower leagues using mods, might wonder this fatigue thing even more.

 

What I am afraid the most is, that those math equations in the game engine just might be too complex or even too complicated.

So, that making only LITTLE adjustments could change game a lot. And therefore SI would be unwilling to adjust these.

Or, what the h*ll was that what happened with GK injuries (when FM24 was launched)?

 

What is the truth, IDK.

Thanks for bringing this to the top. Glad I'm not the only one asking odd questions. :-)

The more I look at tired or injured players, the less it looks they are moving any slower.

Animations of players limping, slumping, catching a breather would be a nice addition. (Of course, along with a slower pace or acceleration, and more mistakes).

[rristola]

It is a bit weird how people have so different opinions on this issue.

Maybe it would be best if DEVs explained all the info they have, and why they have made these solutions (in the game engine).

And if they are happy with it.

[fc.cadoni]

1 hour ago, rristola said:

It is a bit weird how people have so different opinions on this issue.

Maybe it would be best if DEVs explained all the info they have, and why they have made these solutions (in the game engine).

And if they are happy with it.

If you hover the mouse in "heart" icon shows further information.

Fitness level like 63% does not exist IRL, so they hide it (actual numbers available with In-Game Editor) and visual representation is the "heart" icon.

[rristola]

What I meant was this.

Whether DEVs are happy with the way they have implemented fatigue in this game.

Like, if there are two equal players and the other one is fatigued and the other one is a fresh sub, and they are having one on one situation, will the difference in freshness show in FM?

I'm not an expert, but I think that the biggest difference would be in acceleration.

And so it should or could also show in the amount of warnings.

 

And the same way there was this chaos with GK injuries last autumn, also this fatigue issue COULD have something to be adjusted. But, IDK.

 

[santy001]

Additional animations for low condition in match would be nice. When it comes to what you can see in the visual representations I think discerning a difference in condition will be incredibly difficult - just as it is in real life. It goes into calculations and players will be making decisions, so in a particular sprint where the player would be exposed maybe with a lower condition in the match they simply don't even make that run. If they do, perhaps because their lower condition is going into the calculation it's determined they lose the race. 

You can't set up organically a situation where a player will sprint at 100% capacity for X amount of yards and compare that between different condition thresholds. 

Injuries is going to be an issue for as long as the player base broadly speaking cannot handle 100% injury rates. Even right now on the whole with injury rates at 80% of real life figures the most commonly expressed sentiment is that there are too many. SI have been willing to hold their hands up when there are issues with injuries, such as the GK injury issue earlier with this FM. Personally I think a lot of squad management and over-utilising players could be resolved through normal injury rates. However, there is still the reality that players are better at managing this aspect of a squad than the AI. I regularly have 50%+ less injuries than expected over a season. Right now I'm in the middle of what feels to be a horrific injury-ridden season, while still 9% below what is expected. 

When it comes to setting something like condition deterioration and impact it's likely going to be a number variable which is actually incredibly easy to tune. It isn't necessary though until perhaps some other aspects of AI management are closer to human management. 

A lot of the ways in which players get the better of the game could quite easily be resolved with anti-player bias being built into modules. It's not a design philosophy SI want to pursue (thus far at least) and in reality with good reason. Many games only end up achieving their difficulty by ramping up anti-player bias rather than through compelling gameplay or AI advancements. I can see some arguments for it because this many years in to football management games they are - no matter who makes them - a solved equation. At least in the sense of those who've acquired years of experience. 

[WelshMourinho]

17 hours ago, santy001 said:

I regularly have 50%+ less injuries than expected over a season. Right now I'm in the middle of what feels to be a horrific injury-ridden season, while still 9% below what is expected. 

As someone who rotates a lot and tries not to play players with a high injury risk (unless forced), my feeling on this is that the game tends to balance this out by giving you more long term injuries, and even then I'm regularly quite far below what's expected.

 

 

Here was a particularly horrific period I had in my save in the season I've just finished. Just loads of horrific contact injuries more than anything, or stupid stuff in training. If I look across at some of our rivals, they get a lot more short term niggles, but they're a lot more frequent overall. Honestly if they toned injuries down I think I could get through a season with very few at all lmao. It's fine the way it is imo

Edited June 17 by WelshMourinho

[WizbaII]

Fatigued players will still sprint when necessary, like when a defender needs to chase a ball that beats the offside trap. They are just less likely to press and more likely to lose concentration. In other words, fatigue should affect attacking players more than it affects defenders. I would expect that a fresh attacking player is more likely to beat a tired defender in the dribble, but then again the fresh attacker was usually on the bench because he's not as good of a dribbler to begin with. So I think stamina will affect the number of forward runs and the likelihood of pressing, so you'll notice it most on forwards, less on midfielders and fullbacks, and least on central defenders.

[NineCloudNine]

11 hours ago, WizbaII said:

Fatigued players will still sprint when necessary, like when a defender needs to chase a ball that beats the offside trap. They are just less likely to press and more likely to lose concentration. In other words, fatigue should affect attacking players more than it affects defenders. I would expect that a fresh attacking player is more likely to beat a tired defender in the dribble, but then again the fresh attacker was usually on the bench because he's not as good of a dribbler to begin with. So I think stamina will affect the number of forward runs and the likelihood of pressing, so you'll notice it most on forwards, less on midfielders and fullbacks, and least on central defenders.

This is all what should happen. Does it?

[rristola]

13 hours ago, WizbaII said:

fatigue should affect attacking players more than it affects defenders

That is true. But still, whether players from the bench are not as good as first eleven, but they are fresh.

And isn't acceleration affected by tiredness?

Like, you know trait "knocks ball past opponent", and if a fresh attacker does that, it could mean that the tired defender just can't stop him WITHOUT a foul.

Those are (or should be) considered as tactical fouls, and it means a warning.

 

Do you feel that in FM there are realistic number of these?

If there aren't enough of these, it means that the math in game AI isn't good enough. IMO

What do you think?

Edited June 21 by rristola

[phd_angel]

22 hours ago, WizbaII said:

Fatigued players will still sprint when necessary, like when a defender needs to chase a ball that beats the offside trap. They are just less likely to press and more likely to lose concentration. In other words, fatigue should affect attacking players more than it affects defenders. I would expect that a fresh attacking player is more likely to beat a tired defender in the dribble, but then again the fresh attacker was usually on the bench because he's not as good of a dribbler to begin with. So I think stamina will affect the number of forward runs and the likelihood of pressing, so you'll notice it most on forwards, less on midfielders and fullbacks, and least on central defenders.

Thanks for your insightful observations. It makes sense. But I can't see this reflected on 3D animations. Can you notice this drop in performance due to fatigue toward the end of the game? I can't.

[jcafcwbb]

I wonder if the move to Unity engine is because the current engine limits what can be shown graphically.