Help with 4-2-3-1 vertical tiki-taka

[Daguimar_]

 Hello everybody, I'm currently managing Las Palmas in the first division of Spain and I've decided to adapt the tactic into a vertical tiki-taka as I've never tried it. I selected the preset and I chose a 4-2-3-1 since it was other popular formation used by many in FM and it could be more motivating as I only have experience with 4-3-3. Media predicts us to finish 18th so I don't expect wonders. However, I feel like we underperform a lot and conceed many goals while also making really difficult to score.

As you may have seen in the recent matches, I don't know what happens to our defense that we get destroyed by most of the teams (even the ones that should be in the same page as us, for example Granada) and it is really frustating to lose many matches, I tried setting up friendlies in order to increase motivation but it feels useless as we lose or draw many times in league, same for the team meeting.

This is the tactic, as I've said, vertical tiki-taka, the players are good at passing and the things that kind of need to be modified (In my opinion) are the following:

- Don't have two playmaker roles
- We lack width atleast in defense, instead of having two FB I could change to a WB 
- I don't know if Counter and Counterpress + Distribute Quickly can work in a tiki-taka

- I feel that the AF is not that involved in the game and there are games in which he feels useless

Any help is welcome. Also, I would want some feedback on the roles of the tactic and the TI in the Out Of Possesion category

[BrunosTaxi]

8 小时前, Daguimar_说:

 Hello everybody, I'm currently managing Las Palmas in the first division of Spain and I've decided to adapt the tactic into a vertical tiki-taka as I've never tried it. I selected the preset and I chose a 4-2-3-1 since it was other popular formation used by many in FM and it could be more motivating as I only have experience with 4-3-3. Media predicts us to finish 18th so I don't expect wonders. However, I feel like we underperform a lot and conceed many goals while also making really difficult to score.

As you may have seen in the recent matches, I don't know what happens to our defense that we get destroyed by most of the teams (even the ones that should be in the same page as us, for example Granada) and it is really frustating to lose many matches, I tried setting up friendlies in order to increase motivation but it feels useless as we lose or draw many times in league, same for the team meeting.

This is the tactic, as I've said, vertical tiki-taka, the players are good at passing and the things that kind of need to be modified (In my opinion) are the following:

- Don't have two playmaker roles
- We lack width atleast in defense, instead of having two FB I could change to a WB 
- I don't know if Counter and Counterpress + Distribute Quickly can work in a tiki-taka

- I feel that the AF is not that involved in the game and there are games in which he feels useless

Any help is welcome. Also, I would want some feedback on the roles of the tactic and the TI in the Out Of Possesion category

I wouldn’t have the double pivot as CM when u already got 2 FB that would join the attack. That makes your rest defence very vulnerable. Also, I think you can increase the width a bit.

[Daguimar_]

Any feedback? 

[Daguimar_]

I've decided to do some changes to the tactic, still I don't know how can I play with the PF and the AM.

The main problem that I think I will have in the second season is due to my 10th place, my reputation has grown a little and this can lead to the teams playing in a more defensive or in a cautious way against me. I'm totally a noob building my own tactics and configuring the roles of my players so I would want some feedback or some recommendations that can lead me to beat these sides that tend to play more defensively and that can lead me to achieve better things with the team.

I think we cover completely the width of the team by having a WB(a) on the left with the IF(s) and the W(a) with the FB(s) but I don't know if the PF(a) won't be effectiveand I also don't know if having the duo of a CM(S) and a DLP(d) will be as effective as having both on the DM position.

[coach vahid]

If i may, for me there's a little problem. If i play with a WB at i prefer the defend duty on midfield on his side for cover.

You can try, if your players can, using the bwm def on left and b2b on right. More dynamic.

The idea is not bad to put your midfield on dm position. You can play with a dm def on the left and a sv su on the right.

For the team instructions i have no idea. Maybe change tempo to normal.

[Daguimar_]

En 11/6/2024 a las 0:38, BrunosTaxi dijo:

I wouldn’t have the double pivot as CM when u already got 2 FB that would join the attack. That makes your rest defence very vulnerable. Also, I think you can increase the width a bit.

Then I would have to drop both to the DM position + increase the width Btw, thanks for the message, I didn't notice it. I also thought of changing one of the FB into a WB in the IF side

[Daguimar_]

hace 15 horas, coach vahid dijo:

If i may, for me there's a little problem. If i play with a WB at i prefer the defend duty on midfield on his side for cover.

You can try, if your players can, using the bwm def on left and b2b on right. More dynamic.

The idea is not bad to put your midfield on dm position. You can play with a dm def on the left and a sv su on the right.

For the team instructions i have no idea. Maybe change tempo to normal.

Thanks for the message and the recommendation ! 
I think you are right with the defend duty on the WB side. However, I'm not a big fan of bwm as I've never had sucess with it. I'll probably drop the midfield into the DM position and have the DLP on defense to hold the position and cover the WB and having the sv on s as you have said

[crusadertsar]

On 10/06/2024 at 19:38, BrunosTaxi said:

I wouldn’t have the double pivot as CM when u already got 2 FB that would join the attack. That makes your rest defence very vulnerable. Also, I think you can increase the width a bit.

Having a good solid double pivot (even in CM position as long as both have hold position instruction) is a great idea with fullbacks that join attack. If anything his problem is that his FB(s) is too conservative for this double pivot setup. I would play a wingback(s) on side of inside forward and fullback(a) on side of winger. But for sure DM double pivot would be ideal in this case. 

Edited June 15 by crusadertsar

[Daguimar_]

Update:

I have applied the things that you have recommended in this post and we have been winning and having good results while scoring lots of goals (Kaba is the topscorer in the league with 9 goals in 10 matches which is fantastic) But we have conceded goals too. I noticed that when we are winning the teams formation change to a simple 4-4-2 and they achieve the draw against us which is really frustating. How can I counter it? For example, Celta de Vigo's changed into this formation while trying to have the possesion and I've tried to increase the width of the team and trying a more direct passing style to counter, but seemed kind of useless. This has also happened with Valladolid

 

[Daguimar_]

Update v2: We are now in the third season and we have achieved Champions, which is really good for the money and reputation, which is increasing in a fast way ! But the problem here is that we keep being destroyed by other teams such as Barcelona, Juventus and even Feyernoord. It should be common as it is our first season playing Champions League but sometimes my team feels rather useless against this bigger teams.

 

We are 5th in the league but we are suffering a lot, I think that we are winning because of luck (as we have less xG that the other teams, I know higher xG its not equal to winning every match) and this seems really bad. There are some days in which we can't reach the opponents goal and even trying to play more directly doesn't do us any favour or even decreasing the tempo. Another thing to take into account is that we tend to miss many long shots but turning on "Work Ball into Box" makes the team really slow in the counters and our shots often get blocked. I will put you the xG and the stats of many matches during the season  + the tactic (which should work). The other aspect I want to talk about is the Pressing Forward role, they are making goals but not as much as I've expected, I tried them in At but they seem to be rather useless and they work much better on support (atleast is what I am thinking this season). I would also want to know what do you think about the dm pairing, I don't know if they are too defensive, I tried to include a SV but neither of my DM have the finishing attributes to play it well. 

[Daguimar_]

Im getting so frustated that I want to give up on the save, 3 draws against teams that should been winnable but the team is useless against them

[El Payaso]

10 minutes ago, Daguimar_ said:

Im getting so frustated that I want to give up on the save, 3 draws against teams that should been winnable but the team is useless against them

So, you are Las Palmas and in the Champions League in season three and apparently again fighting for a good position in La Liga. So you are already overachieving quite heavily, so what more are you expecting? 

To your question about the matches against bigger teams: if you are not willing to take 1-2 steps back, losing heavily should be the likeliest scenario. Despite you playing a balanced mentality, the team instructions make your style of play fairly aggressive and while it brings results in most of the games, there are still plenty of teams in the league and Champions League that can hurt you. 

I'm not a big fan of 4-2-3-1 formation itself even though it is one of the most used ones. What I would do in the big games is moving the AML and AMR to ML and MR position on try to build from there. 

I would also take a notch back in pressing and the height of the defensive line and get rid of counter-press. 

[Daguimar_]

En 30/6/2024 a las 20:06, El Payaso dijo:

So, you are Las Palmas and in the Champions League in season three and apparently again fighting for a good position in La Liga. So you are already overachieving quite heavily, so what more are you expecting? 

To your question about the matches against bigger teams: if you are not willing to take 1-2 steps back, losing heavily should be the likeliest scenario. Despite you playing a balanced mentality, the team instructions make your style of play fairly aggressive and while it brings results in most of the games, there are still plenty of teams in the league and Champions League that can hurt you. 

I'm not a big fan of 4-2-3-1 formation itself even though it is one of the most used ones. What I would do in the big games is moving the AML and AMR to ML and MR position on try to build from there. 

I would also take a notch back in pressing and the height of the defensive line and get rid of counter-press. 

I knew for sure that we would have a decline since we played Champions League and my players would be more tired throughout the season, but I didn't expect that my tactic would become useless as I've said previously, we can't have a relaxed match in which we can control the other team. I've tried everything and there was no result, we kept drawing against the likes of Levante and Mallorca while losing against Alavés in matches in which they have more opportunities.

As for the formation, I was tired of losing and tried to let my ass man take control of the team during matches against Real Sociedad, Barcelona and Atletico and... Surprise, we won against Real and against Atletico while losing against Barcelona 2-3. He used some kind of 4-3-3 and I've decided to use the Gegenpress preset as we have been playing like that the whole season as we have players with good work rate and teamwork. 

 

I came up with this 4-3-3 that keep familiarity with roles and seems balanced:

 

 

The only problem that I find is that in the left attacking midfielder position I've used a Winger and I don't know if I can pair that role well with an AP while changing the left back into a fullback on support