Revamping the 4-4-2 on FM24: how I tried to do it

[Fox-7-]

Hello guys, 

I open this topic to share my experience on FM 24 and start a discussion about a tactic that is particularly close to my heart, but which many consider to be behind times: the 4-4-2. 

Before I get started, I want to thank a few sources that inspired me. First of all, @crusadertsar and his Defence-First thread, which lit the fuse to direct my FM24 save with the Scottish team Kilmarnock towards the right path.

 

I also point out @ultrAslan's thread on the counterattack

 

@cocoadavid's thread on the defensive phase of the 4-4-2

 

And the precious contribution of users like @Cloud9, who scatters FM tactical gems here and there in every topic. 

I was looking for a way to combine my predilection for the 4-4-2 with creating a defensively solid team, but I also wanted to evolve the tactics in the attacking phase by not just doing Park the Bus and Hoofball, being able to take advantage of the excellent Positional Play feature of FM24. After reading and following some topics and testing the tactics with various tweaks, I managed to develop a set of tactics that gravitate around the shape of 4-4-2 (not literally according to the name given by the game, but which visually on the field they behave like this) which allow me to face various types of opponents that present themselves to me from time to time.

Remember well that I said 'to face', not 'to win' against any opponent. If you're looking for meta tactics that get you 5-0 wins in succession, forwards scoring 70+ goals per season and streaks of 20+ clean sheets, you're totally in the wrong place. As said, I'm managing Kilmarnock in Scotland, and I'm in the middle of the 5th season. My trophy cabinet? Still empty, but I'm costantly overachieving and this Is enough for me to enjoy the game, so I think I'm doing things with a sensibile approach.

I don't want to bother you with a disquisition on the pros and cons of the 4-4-2 setup, given that both this Forum and the web in general are full of tactical analyses, so I'll immediately move on to the world of FM to present you the first tactic that I use. I will leave a space of a few days between one tactic and another, so that we can have a clean discussion without mixing different concepts.

In these tactics you will find two key aspects: the presence of a big and strong TF and the double pivot in the DM strata. I use them there and not in the CM strata as IMO they more faithfully represent the behavior of this type of player IRL, i.e. closer to the defenders out of possession but still ready to accompany the attacking phase forward, I tried some combinations in the CM strata (like i.e. BBMs + CMd) but none of them fully satisfied me.

Tactic #1

This is the tactic I use most of the time, for theoretically balanced matches against opponents more or less of my level. I try to play a slightly more direct game to get the ball faster towards the final third in the phases in which the ball is in play, inviting my players to cross whenever they have the chance in order to take advantage of the aerial ability of my TF. When GK has the ball, however, I prefer to have the team in position and calmly start from the defenders (without forcing either with PooD in case of opponent pressing or with long throws to the TF which often end up far from him with the ball given away to the opponents). In defense we patiently wait for the right moment to press with standard settings and we create a more compact block by keeping the defensive line higher. Most of the time we protect the center by funneling the opponent towards the flanks, where we are still present with two players on each side.

The idea of my style of play is to have a build-up and a 3+2 rest defence. In our defensive third the double pivot remains the DMs + VOLs pair, but once we arrive in the opponent's half our shape morphs and is aimed at occupying the five channels with the FBa, VOLs, TFs, AMs, DWs. The interaction between WMs and VOLs is interesting: my original intent is to block WMs via the PIs towards the center of the field to free up the running of the VOLs

But despite this, WMs does not always remain at the center because it still has a hardcoded behavior as a wing player, so in the end the result is a hybrid where sometimes I achieve my first option, while in other cases an overload is created between WM/VOL/FB with a shape closer to a 3-1-6, which often gives us numerical superiority over our opponents.

On the right side we have the DWs, which takes care of the management of the flank almost entirely on its own. I am truly a big fan of this role, which I see little used when I see tactics from others, but from my experience I guarantee that with the right player a terrific balance is achieved between the defensive solidity of a FB and the offensive contribution of a W. In this role I often use a retrained FB and it works great. The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB. Our game focuses mainly on the wings, and the most frequent goal comes with a cross for the TF who dominates over high balls (also because in his teammates' PIs, where selectable, I aim the crosses towards him), but we manage to penetrate also centrally thanks to the players' movements without the ball.

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

I hope I have captured your attention, and encouraged you to start a discussion, share your experiences or constructive criticism. If you're interested in additional screenshots, just ask for them 

Edited June 13 by Fox-7-

[jc577]

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

10 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

This is a stroke of genius, will certainly be stealing that  I’ve noticed that sometimes we can jump into the press too much and players get dragged out of position, I think this solves it!
 

Looking forward to more!

[OJ403]

I have had a bit of success in past FMs with a flat 4-4-2 out of possession shape and a diamond 4-4-2 in possession. I used either dual IWBs and wingers or one IWB with a winger ahead and a WB with a WP in front of each side.

I've been meaning to try it again this year with the positional play improvements, but my main save has been in the National League South with Scarborough Athletic - we've only just hit the Championship so we don't really have the squad for such a system! I've been keen to try a 3-5-2 in possession variant with an IFB too...

[Los_Culés]

This is brilliant! I was hoping that you @Fox-7- start your own thread.  Also the other threads you posted are a must read for people that have a passion for good defensive football. They helped me immensely to learn how to transform real life defensive concepts to FM and more importantly how to start enjoying FM again (I jumped from FM12 to FM24).

DW is a great role (apart from the hard coded Hard Tackling). I currently use two DWs in my 4-4-2 (which is largely inspired by your tactic).

Looking forward to further updates! 

[Vođi]

This is really some inspiring reading!

[Fox-7-]

17 ore fa, jc577 ha scritto:

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

This is a stroke of genius, will certainly be stealing that  I’ve noticed that sometimes we can jump into the press too much and players get dragged out of position, I think this solves it!
 

Looking forward to more!

Thanks, TBH the concept of not pressing GKs and CBs at all was mentioned in the cocoadavid's topic I linked in the OP. If I remember correctly he applied it only using two strikers with support duties upfront to obtain perfect alignment in ahead of the opposing midfielders.

However, I seem to notice, but perhaps it's just my bias, that in this edition's ME the players perform the task more faithfully. Maybe it's also just due to a higher value of the Teamwork skill of the players I'm using compared to those of other saves I've played.

Waiting to see your tactics

 

9 ore fa, OJ403 ha scritto:

I have had a bit of success in past FMs with a flat 4-4-2 out of possession shape and a diamond 4-4-2 in possession. I used either dual IWBs and wingers or one IWB with a winger ahead and a WB with a WP in front of each side.

I've been meaning to try it again this year with the positional play improvements, but my main save has been in the National League South with Scarborough Athletic - we've only just hit the Championship so we don't really have the squad for such a system! I've been keen to try a 3-5-2 in possession variant with an IFB too...

IFBd was a great introduction this year to create a back three from a back four, we totally need this.

Interested in seeing the diamond shape in possession starting from a flat 442 in the line-up screen

 

8 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

This is brilliant! I was hoping that you @Fox-7- start your own thread.  Also the other threads you posted are a must read for people that have a passion for good defensive football. They helped me immensely to learn how to transform real life defensive concepts to FM and more importantly how to start enjoying FM again (I jumped from FM12 to FM24).

DW is a great role (apart from the hard coded Hard Tackling). I currently use two DWs in my 4-4-2 (which is largely inspired by your tactic).

Looking forward to further updates! 

Thanks mate! Yes, someone might remember seeing some of my posts in crusadetstar's topic. As said, this was my starting point, then I focused exclusively on building a suitable team for the 442, maybe in the future I'll post something about my recruitment strategy. Does double DWs allow you to have more offensive/creative roles in the middle of the park or more roaming defenders like an IWBa for example? I still have to test the DW on defend duty to see the differences and understand in what situations or with what combinations of roles next to him could do well

 

4 ore fa, Vođi ha scritto:

This is really some inspiring reading!

Thank you! 

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-I currently use DM-D, DM-S (very good, customizable role), and 2X DW-S (+ defensive fullbacks ). The reason for double DW-S is that they seem to defend their respective flank more reliably than Winger/Inverted Winger roles (and even if the players actually have quite poor defensive attributes). I really like when they double on opposition Wingers in cooperation with the fullbacks. They also work great if they play with opposite foot on their flank (eg. right footed DW-S in ML Position). The only headache is the hard tackling as it can easily lead to silly fouls and red cards (eg. I was comfortably leading 2-0 when my DW got a red card, luckily I still managed to win 3-2 ).

[warlock]

4 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

maybe in the future I'll post something about my recruitment strategy

I'd like to read that . I used to be a big fan of 442 but haven't played it for at least a couple of years. My biggest issue is the lack of natural MR/ML players and the vast number of AMR/AMLs who are 'awkward' or worse if you start them 15 yards deeper. I know it doesn't/shouldn't matter but when all of the in-game feedback says you're making a mistake, it's hard to maintain your confidence in the shape and player selection.

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, warlock said:

I'd like to read that . I used to be a big fan of 442 but haven't played it for at least a couple of years. My biggest issue is the lack of natural MR/ML players and the vast number of AMR/AMLs who are 'awkward' or worse if you start them 15 yards deeper. I know it doesn't/shouldn't matter but when all of the in-game feedback says you're making a mistake, it's hard to maintain your confidence in the shape and player selection.

It really does not make a difference. Aside from a tiny negligible decision attribute hit (like 1-2 value hit). I don't even think about it anymore when playing a player out of position, not since FM14. As long as their attributes are suited to it. 

Edited June 14 by crusadertsar

[warlock]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

It really does not make a difference

Good to know... I'll try to be braver 

[Los_Culés]

When my forwards are unvailable/injured I play my DC as a TF (190cm +, good HEA + JUM, OTB 10, Finishing 5) and he does his job even when he has no positional awareness to play as a forward. Attributes are the only thing that matters to me.

Edited June 15 by Los_Culés

[TheMartello]

On 13/06/2024 at 14:12, Fox-7- said:

Hello guys, 

I open this topic to share my experience on FM 24 and start a discussion about a tactic that is particularly close to my heart, but which many consider to be behind times: the 4-4-2. 

Before I get started, I want to thank a few sources that inspired me. First of all, @crusadertsar and his Defence-First thread, which lit the fuse to direct my FM24 save with the Scottish team Kilmarnock towards the right path.

 

I also point out @ultrAslan's thread on the counterattack

 

@cocoadavid's thread on the defensive phase of the 4-4-2

 

And the precious contribution of users like @Cloud9, who scatters FM tactical gems here and there in every topic. 

I was looking for a way to combine my predilection for the 4-4-2 with creating a defensively solid team, but I also wanted to evolve the tactics in the attacking phase by not just doing Park the Bus and Hoofball, being able to take advantage of the excellent Positional Play feature of FM24. After reading and following some topics and testing the tactics with various tweaks, I managed to develop a set of tactics that gravitate around the shape of 4-4-2 (not literally according to the name given by the game, but which visually on the field they behave like this) which allow me to face various types of opponents that present themselves to me from time to time.

Remember well that I said 'to face', not 'to win' against any opponent. If you're looking for meta tactics that get you 5-0 wins in succession, forwards scoring 70+ goals per season and streaks of 20+ clean sheets, you're totally in the wrong place. As said, I'm managing Kilmarnock in Scotland, and I'm in the middle of the 5th season. My trophy cabinet? Still empty, but I'm costantly overachieving and this Is enough for me to enjoy the game, so I think I'm doing things with a sensibile approach.

I don't want to bother you with a disquisition on the pros and cons of the 4-4-2 setup, given that both this Forum and the web in general are full of tactical analyses, so I'll immediately move on to the world of FM to present you the first tactic that I use. I will leave a space of a few days between one tactic and another, so that we can have a clean discussion without mixing different concepts.

In these tactics you will find two key aspects: the presence of a big and strong TF and the double pivot in the DM strata. I use them there and not in the CM strata as IMO they more faithfully represent the behavior of this type of player IRL, i.e. closer to the defenders out of possession but still ready to accompany the attacking phase forward, I tried some combinations in the CM strata (like i.e. BBMs + CMd) but none of them fully satisfied me.

Tactic #1

This is the tactic I use most of the time, for theoretically balanced matches against opponents more or less of my level. I try to play a slightly more direct game to get the ball faster towards the final third in the phases in which the ball is in play, inviting my players to cross whenever they have the chance in order to take advantage of the aerial ability of my TF. When GK has the ball, however, I prefer to have the team in position and calmly start from the defenders (without forcing either with PooD in case of opponent pressing or with long throws to the TF which often end up far from him with the ball given away to the opponents). In defense we patiently wait for the right moment to press with standard settings and we create a more compact block by keeping the defensive line higher. Most of the time we protect the center by funneling the opponent towards the flanks, where we are still present with two players on each side.

The idea of my style of play is to have a build-up and a 3+2 rest defence. In our defensive third the double pivot remains the DMs + VOLs pair, but once we arrive in the opponent's half our shape morphs and is aimed at occupying the five channels with the FBa, VOLs, TFs, AMs, DWs. The interaction between WMs and VOLs is interesting: my original intent is to block WMs via the PIs towards the center of the field to free up the running of the VOLs

But despite this, WMs does not always remain at the center because it still has a hardcoded behavior as a wing player, so in the end the result is a hybrid where sometimes I achieve my first option, while in other cases an overload is created between WM/VOL/FB with a shape closer to a 3-1-6, which often gives us numerical superiority over our opponents.

On the right side we have the DWs, which takes care of the management of the flank almost entirely on its own. I am truly a big fan of this role, which I see little used when I see tactics from others, but from my experience I guarantee that with the right player a terrific balance is achieved between the defensive solidity of a FB and the offensive contribution of a W. In this role I often use a retrained FB and it works great. The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB. Our game focuses mainly on the wings, and the most frequent goal comes with a cross for the TF who dominates over high balls (also because in his teammates' PIs, where selectable, I aim the crosses towards him), but we manage to penetrate also centrally thanks to the players' movements without the ball.

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

I hope I have captured your attention, and encouraged you to start a discussion, share your experiences or constructive criticism. If you're interested in additional screenshots, just ask for them 

 

Do you use any other player instructions on your players except the ones mentioned on WM + VOL, and the crossing ones to the TF on all of your players?

[OJ403]

15 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Interested in seeing the diamond shape in possession starting from a flat 442 in the line-up screen

If memory serves me correctly it looked something along these lines:

AF/A -- CF/A

W/S -- CM/A -- DLP/D -- W/A

IWB/S -- CD/D -- CD/D -- IWB/S

SK/D

Whereby the DLP was the base, the IWBs the sides and the CM/A the tip of the diamond. I also swapped the W/S for a WP/S and the IWB behind him to a WB at times, with the WP being part of the diamond. 

I see this working much better in FM24.

[Fox-7-]

23 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-I currently use DM-D, DM-S (very good, customizable role), and 2X DW-S (+ defensive fullbacks ). The reason for double DW-S is that they seem to defend their respective flank more reliably than Winger/Inverted Winger roles (and even if the players actually have quite poor defensive attributes). I really like when they double on opposition Wingers in cooperation with the fullbacks. They also work great if they play with opposite foot on their flank (eg. right footed DW-S in ML Position). The only headache is the hard tackling as it can easily lead to silly fouls and red cards (eg. I was comfortably leading 2-0 when my DW got a red card, luckily I still managed to win 3-2 ).

What a careful approach...I expect a very tight defence hard to break down, I like It! What roles do you play upfront?

 

9 ore fa, TheMartello ha scritto:

 

Do you use any other player instructions on your players except the ones mentioned on WM + VOL, and the crossing ones to the TF on all of your players?

Yes, a few others. I'm not playing FM ATM, but I can remember:

-'Shoot less' to LFB

-'Tackle Harder', 'Hold Position', 'Dribble less' and 'Shoot less' to DMs

-'Shorter passing' to TFs

-'Take more risks' to AMa

Situationally I add 'Dribble more' to AMa and 'Get further forward' to DWs

 

9 ore fa, OJ403 ha scritto:

If memory serves me correctly it looked something along these lines:

AF/A -- CF/A

W/S -- CM/A -- DLP/D -- W/A

IWB/S -- CD/D -- CD/D -- IWB/S

SK/D

Whereby the DLP was the base, the IWBs the sides and the CM/A the tip of the diamond. I also swapped the W/S for a WP/S and the IWB behind him to a WB at times, with the WP being part of the diamond. 

I see this working much better in FM24.

Contrary to Los_Culés this seems a very aggressive formation, does it become a 2-Diamond-4? A lot of movement, do your players struggle to track back to their positions when possession is lost?

Edited June 15 by Fox-7-

[TheMartello]

On 14/06/2024 at 00:59, jc577 said:

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

 

Any update? :x

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-Well, I have just recently switched to this approach and played only like 7-10 full matches (Baldurs Gate 3 is eating a lot of my time resources, btw. I play defensively even in RPGs ), but things  look good. I am still conceding but mainly due to individual mistakes which I believe will be mitigated as soon as my team gells a bit. Also I am having quite a few problems with half of my team being nervous during the matches for no apparent reason but again I believe it will get better (I actually think this is happening when my team is overachieving eg. I am predicted to finish 12. and everytime my teams breaks into top 8 my players start getting nervous). Upfront I play TF-S (staple of my team inspired by F. Hornby from your team ) and PF-D or PF-A (depending on what I need in the match).

[OJ403]

4 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Contrary to Los_Culés this seems a very aggressive formation, does it become a 2-Diamond-4? A lot of movement, do your players struggle to track back to their positions when possession is lost?

It wasn't as aggressive as you'd think actually. I played it during FM20 or 21 when Wayne Rooney was at Derby County (my team), so there was no positional play or anything. We played on a lower mentality so the attack duty CM and similar players weren't too aggressive.

In truth I only achieved the diamond with a double IWB set up but this made us far too predictable when attacking, so I dropped to one and a more 3 man on the ball midfield than 4.

We weren't too exposed on the counter, no. We pressed pretty high so that was quite useful for turnovers. In actual fact the logic of packing the midfield made us hard to counter (think Pep's logic for first implementing inverting his defenders).

It did require very physically adept midfielders though!

[jc577]

So the tactic below is what I've been working with at Valencia over the past two seasons, finishing 3rd in my first season, and currently sitting in 1st by 3 points, although Madrid and Barca both have two games in hand.

The idea behind the tactic is simple, sit in a nice mid-block, be aggressive when they enter my half, and hit them hard & fast. The original version of the tactic had the F9/DLF (I change this dependent on the player) swapped over, but what I found was the support duty forward and the SV just didn't get on. Since the change, the SV is 10x better in terms of scoring and assisting, and actually the spread of the whole team across the pitch looks better too - often, the support forward and the SV form a two behind the PF, with the IW tucking in, the WB overlapping, and the winger holding the width. 

On 14/06/2024 at 17:43, Fox-7- said:

Thanks, TBH the concept of not pressing GKs and CBs at all was mentioned in the cocoadavid's topic I linked in the OP. If I remember correctly he applied it only using two strikers with support duties upfront to obtain perfect alignment in ahead of the opposing midfielders.

I tried experimenting with this but felt it made us a bit too passive, could be a variety of reasons for this, but I'm thinking the defensive line would need to be higher in order to pull this off, or more aggressive closing down from midfield - one to keep in mind for the future though.

In terms of recruitment, I prioritise good levels of teamwork, work rate, aggression, bravery and determination across the whole squad - these are non-negotiable for me and are key to the style we're looking to implement. 

After further reading in this thread, very tempted to try the DW-S! 

The only PI's are:

WB-A - run wide with ball

IWB-S - shoot less often

DM-S - Hold Position

IW-S - take more risks, cross more often (Almeida is a very good crosser)

[Fox-7-]

Il 15/06/2024 in 20:58 , Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-Well, I have just recently switched to this approach and played only like 7-10 full matches (Baldurs Gate 3 is eating a lot of my time resources, btw. I play defensively even in RPGs ), but things  look good. I am still conceding but mainly due to individual mistakes which I believe will be mitigated as soon as my team gells a bit. Also I am having quite a few problems with half of my team being nervous during the matches for no apparent reason but again I believe it will get better (I actually think this is happening when my team is overachieving eg. I am predicted to finish 12. and everytime my teams breaks into top 8 my players start getting nervous). Upfront I play TF-S (staple of my team inspired by F. Hornby from your team ) and PF-D or PF-A (depending on what I need in the match).

In the previous answer I forgot to mention the fact that you sometimes play DW on their 'wrong foot', how they behave when in possession? If i Remember correctly they have hardcoded PIs like 'run wide with ball' and 'stay wider'. Or do you feel that they are more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot' when opponents try to cut inside? Nice pair upfront, di you customize your DMs to join more the final third to act like a more conservative Segundo Volante? And last, on what mentality do you play this tactic?

 

Il 15/06/2024 in 23:46 , OJ403 ha scritto:

It wasn't as aggressive as you'd think actually. I played it during FM20 or 21 when Wayne Rooney was at Derby County (my team), so there was no positional play or anything. We played on a lower mentality so the attack duty CM and similar players weren't too aggressive.

In truth I only achieved the diamond with a double IWB set up but this made us far too predictable when attacking, so I dropped to one and a more 3 man on the ball midfield than 4.

We weren't too exposed on the counter, no. We pressed pretty high so that was quite useful for turnovers. In actual fact the logic of packing the midfield made us hard to counter (think Pep's logic for first implementing inverting his defenders).

It did require very physically adept midfielders though!

I understand, strong rest defence to camp in the opponent's half. Hardworking horses in the middle surely are a must with your approach

 

Il 17/06/2024 in 08:29 , jc577 ha scritto:

So the tactic below is what I've been working with at Valencia over the past two seasons, finishing 3rd in my first season, and currently sitting in 1st by 3 points, although Madrid and Barca both have two games in hand.

The idea behind the tactic is simple, sit in a nice mid-block, be aggressive when they enter my half, and hit them hard & fast. The original version of the tactic had the F9/DLF (I change this dependent on the player) swapped over, but what I found was the support duty forward and the SV just didn't get on. Since the change, the SV is 10x better in terms of scoring and assisting, and actually the spread of the whole team across the pitch looks better too - often, the support forward and the SV form a two behind the PF, with the IW tucking in, the WB overlapping, and the winger holding the width. 

I tried experimenting with this but felt it made us a bit too passive, could be a variety of reasons for this, but I'm thinking the defensive line would need to be higher in order to pull this off, or more aggressive closing down from midfield - one to keep in mind for the future though.

In terms of recruitment, I prioritise good levels of teamwork, work rate, aggression, bravery and determination across the whole squad - these are non-negotiable for me and are key to the style we're looking to implement. 

After further reading in this thread, very tempted to try the DW-S! 

The only PI's are:

WB-A - run wide with ball

IWB-S - shoot less often

DM-S - Hold Position

IW-S - take more risks, cross more often (Almeida is a very good crosser)

Thanks for sharing. A higher DL could help to reduce the space available for opponents wingers and #10 spot. I added 'Tackle harder' PI to my double pivot players to try to be more prone to shut down shots from outside the box. This tactic is similar to mine that I use when I'm the favorite team, which I will show in my next post. Some roles change but I agree that the spreading of the players on the pitch is very effective for building dangerous attacks.

Edited June 18 by Fox-7-

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-Well, see for yourselves what my DW is capable to do . The DWs hardcoded PIs are actually welcomed even when he plays on his "wrong foot" as for me it just means that he does not cut inside so early. Mo Salah is not DW IRL but this is what he does (ie. playing as a Winger on his "wrong foot"). About being more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot, this is actually a great insight from you but I did not have this in mind. Would be wonderful if it works this way but I would need to test/specifically focus on this. I primarily wanted my DW to go deeper without the possession and keep opp. Fullback under control. DM-S role naturally plays like conservative "Segundo Volante", I added PIs Tackle Harder, Shoot Less Often, Take Fewer Risks (as due to lack of Vision I want him to play horizontally first and foremost). I use Balanced Mentality but I think Cautious could also work for superhard matches.

 

[OJ403]

8 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

I understand, strong rest defence to camp in the opponent's half. Hardworking horses in the middle surely are a must with your approach

Exactly that. The four across the midfield and two fullbacks must have really good work rate and stamina. Strength and pace was helpful too - Rice and Bellingham would be an ideal central midfield pairing.

[Fox-7-]

23 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-Well, see for yourselves what my DW is capable to do . The DWs hardcoded PIs are actually welcomed even when he plays on his "wrong foot" as for me it just means that he does not cut inside so early. Mo Salah is not DW IRL but this is what he does (ie. playing as a Winger on his "wrong foot"). About being more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot, this is actually a great insight from you but I did not have this in mind. Would be wonderful if it works this way but I would need to test/specifically focus on this. I primarily wanted my DW to go deeper without the possession and keep opp. Fullback under control. DM-S role naturally plays like conservative "Segundo Volante", I added PIs Tackle Harder, Shoot Less Often, Take Fewer Risks (as due to lack of Vision I want him to play horizontally first and foremost). I use Balanced Mentality but I think Cautious could also work for superhard matches.

 

Nice goal, I love how your #40 and #41 physically blocks opponent #15 and #32 (and #5 in the end) and your #15 runs to catch the attention of their #20, so Dyani has ton of space to run into e go for the goal...this is true Teamwork!

Edited June 19 by Fox-7-

[jc577]

On 18/06/2024 at 09:41, Fox-7- said:

Thanks for sharing. A higher DL could help to reduce the space available for opponents wingers and #10 spot. I added 'Tackle harder' PI to my double pivot players to try to be more prone to shut down shots from outside the box. This tactic is similar to mine that I use when I'm the favorite team, which I will show in my next post. Some roles change but I agree that the spreading of the players on the pitch is very effective for building dangerous attacks.

I did think a higher DL could be the trick here and it makes sense... if we're sitting off completely with our strikers, the defence/midfield behind them need to be compact otherwise it's easy to play through, which is exactly what I saw. I've recruited some quicker CB's now so will give the OI's another try with a higher line! 

Very interested to see your tactic mate. I'm currently deciding between using an IWB or IFB... the IWB's positioning is a bit too narrow for my liking, at least the way it plays out in a 442. Feel like the role is meant to provide easy access to the winger but he has to drop deeper to receive, and the connection to his flank seems off. My thinking is that an IFB creating a back three in build up will stretch the pitch, the SV on the same side will drop a bit deeper and provide a better connection to the winger. We'll see!

[Fox-7-]

Tactic #2

 

This tactic is deployed when we are the clear favorite team in a match. I change my offensive approach while maintaining the same defensive attitude. First of all, we add some threat by transforming some roles such as FBa into WBa, WMs into IWs and VOLs into VOLa (moved to the right), in order to have runs that come from different channels and depths. We also reverse the duties of the offensive pair: TF goes on attack and AM goes on support, so we have the physical presence of the TFa who occupies the defenders closest to the goal, and AMs who stays a little further back assuming the function of the creator of chances in the attacking third. In front of our back four DMs becomes DLPs moved to the left to better cover the WBL bombing forward. Since in theory we have more time to manage the ball we can give the ball to him while waiting for our players to reach the attacking positions with optimal timing. In order to achieve this, the change of TI from Counter to Hold Shape becomes essential: since we will often easily recover the ball from their clearances or long balls, it becomes useless to tell my players to immediately run against a wall, also because I have already given them roles with a higher basic mentality and that should be enough. I noticed that the Positional Play feature, in the VOLa combination behind the AMs, comes into play in an unexpected way: in fact I would have bet on the VOLa moving straight forward to the centre-right forcing the AMs to shift to the centre-left, while instead it is the VOLa that does a diagonal run to go into the AML spot. I believe this unexpected outcome adds a further threat to our attacks, given that this movement is more difficult for the opponent to track and our VOLa often finds itself totally unmarked in a dangerous position.

 

When in possession, we return to Standard passing directness to avoid rushing decisions, but we keep Hit early crosses as I noticed that comes in help to punish any mispositioning of the opposing defense. The build-up and rest-defense phase switches to a 2+3 with the IFBd-->IWBs change on the right to have an extra player in the middle of the field, but I can return to the original version in case the opponent plays with two central attackers, to maintain superiority at the back. This could answer to @jc577's dilemma. It's all a matter of where you want to have numerical advantage in your early build-up (apart from goal kicks where all seems to start from a standard (1)+2+4 shape with (GK)/CB-CB/RFB-DM-DM-LFB. Only once we get into the middle third IWB start to cut inside and WB to move forward. Once we have estabilished in the opponent's half, VOLa leaves his DM position and joind or front line, and our shape becomes and hybrid between a 3-1-6 (CB-DLP-CB/IWB, like in the screenshot above) and a 2-2-6 (CB-CB/IWB-DLP), depending on how much deep out DLPs drops to play the ball

 

Out of possession I adopt a slightly more aggressive pressing to limit their counter-attacking opportunities (if I see that it's not enough I occasionally add Get Stuck In, I avoid Counter-press because I want to recover my 4-4-2 shape when I lose possession). I use the same OIs on GK and CBs mentioned in OP. Even if I can afford to press more CBs with bad on the ball skills and bet on an eventual mistake, I found that not pressing them very often forces a long ball that I've nearly the 100% chance to collect, thanks to the ability in aerial duels of my back four players.

Edited June 20 by Fox-7-

[Fox-7-]

Tactic #3

Now, here's my favorite tactic of the entire set, even though it's the one I use least frequently. In fact, it is my approach for matches in which I am by far the weakest team, where we need to shut down everything in defense and have maximum performance in attack, a classic defense and counterattack (therefore I use it in the matches against Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership and in most of the matches in European competitions). To get what I want, some of the player roles has to change. The back four is deployed with conservative roles: LFBa switches to a support duty, and having given him the Hold position PI, our RFB doesn't need to invert into the field, becoming a classic FBd to better guard the flank. The double pivot must mainly act as a screen in front of the defense to force their attacks to go towards the flanks: therefore I opt for a DMd and DMs pair. This way we have 6 players aimed at protecting the goal.

With this approach we don't rely on Positional Play, we don't have time to build a sustained attack, so I don't want to waste any with ball circulation and the invert here, overload there & co. stuff. For our direct attacks we "unlock" LM which from WMs becomes IWa, this time with the Stay wider PI to allow him to have more space at the beginning of the possession phase, to be able to receive the ball and directly target the opposing defense by carrying the ball towards the goal. On the right I always rely on my faithful DWs (to which I add Get further forward PI to increase their offensive initiative), while upfront this time we create a real couple, with the usual TFs and the AMa who advances to become an AFa, (PF in the screenshot is probabily a misclick] always ready to run behind the CBs in the large spaces that are presumably granted to us. We therefore play with slightly more direct passes and a slightly higher tempo so as not to get caught up in their probable pressing, and the Counter TI is activated again to hit in transition as quickly as possible. In possession, the result is to have a more structured shape, with a clear 4-2-4 layout right from the initial build-up. Certainly in phases of prolonged possession we can be more predictable, but since over the 90' there is probably less time with the ball than the opponents, I want to have my 4 players always ready to attack with a quick transition when we recover the ball and they are with some players away from their optimal defensive positions.

 

In defense we position ourselves with a Low block, lowering the DL to a Standard height: given that since we are all already in our half and with the pivot in the DM strata we are already well equipped to cover their AM strata, a slightly lower DL than the one I usually use comes in handy to take away space from their forwards in the situation in which we are most vulnerable due to our characteristics, namely Peace and Agility.

 

In case of success the satisfactions obtained with this tactic are the greatest, here are some of my best recent 'Giant Killings' (don't mind the formation with the AM instead of AF, I change the tactic in the Team Talk screen before the kick off since it's currently out of my three available slots, but the UI depict it as if I have never changed it):

Sometimes you need a little luck

 

Sometimes we gain a well deserved win

 

Sometimes it's an unexpected slaughter (Sorry @crusadertsar )

 

Obviously it isn't always puppies and rainbows, when the opponents are strong things could take the wrong path in the blink of and eye, and the entire game plan goes down the drain

Edited June 25 by Fox-7-

[shaneomac]

Do you use any other PI's for tactics 2 and 3?

[Fox-7-]

1 ora fa, shaneomac ha scritto:

Do you use any other PI's for tactics 2 and 3?

No, none other than those mentioned 

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-I am currently working on something like combining your Tactic #1 with your Tactic #3 plus some of my own tweaks (eg. playing with two DWs ) in my default tactic. And it has been working decently so far. Will test it more in near future but what I am trying to achieve is Defence-First Approach with some controlling element (in my interpretation this is combining Low Block, Counters + More Disciplined Approach with Possession and therefore having one IFB-D, applying Balanced Mentality, Normal Directness and Normal Tempo). Also your tip to give DW -S PI "Go Further Forward" in Low Block setup seems to be a great advise. 

[Fox-7-]

12 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-I am currently working on something like combining your Tactic #1 with your Tactic #3 plus some of my own tweaks (eg. playing with two DWs ) in my default tactic. And it has been working decently so far. Will test it more in near future but what I am trying to achieve is Defence-First Approach with some controlling element (in my interpretation this is combining Low Block, Counters + More Disciplined Approach with Possession and therefore having one IFB-D, applying Balanced Mentality, Normal Directness and Normal Tempo). Also your tip to give DW -S PI "Go Further Forward" in Low Block setup seems to be a great advise. 

Great, feel totally free to share the tactics and your considerations, I would like to see and understand how an even more conservative approach than mine works.

Soon I will post an update with a little insight into what I think are the key roles of my tactics

[Fox-7-]

Key roles

After having shown the three tactics that I mainly use, I want to focus for a moment on what in my opinion are the key roles for their functioning, which as you have seen I never change in any version, and on the type of players I use in my team (playing with Kilmarnock they are obviously not the absolute perfect prototype, but you get the idea)

•Centre Back: Since I have focused on a rather defensive game philosophy we will often have to face parts of the game in which the opponents will be near our penalty area, so I want them to have physical dominance in this area of the pitch, therefore tall defenders around 190cm (and more) with good values of Jumping Reach, Strength, Baravery, Anticipation, Decisions. On the other hand, Agility and Pace are not their cup of tea, so over the course of the season some goals conceded with balls played behind them are to be taken into account. From my team here is the example of Lewis Mayo, present in the First team squad since the start of the save. I have to turn a blind eye to his Composure and Decisions, but already having someone with these characteristics at home is a very good starting point if you don't have the money. He can also play as a FB, and when I use Tactic #3 I can fit 4 CBs like him in all the back four positions.

 

•Defensive Winger: this player must be rather well-rounded having to make a great contribution both in possession and without the ball. In this role I often prefer to use a player whose natural position is that of FB: if I have to choose, the priority goes to the defensive characteristics, at the expense of a couple of points less in Flair, Dribbling and Off the ball. But with Missori I don't have this problem anymore

I find the contribution of this role in my tactics unparalleled. To support this statement, I give you the example of two goals scored in the match against Real Sociedad in the Europa League.

-In the first they start from the goal kick, and their LCB passes the ball to their LFB. They are using a flat 442 with the FBs and Ws on their strong side, so I select the Trap Inside TI to avoid too much 1vs1 on the flanks with the technical advantage in their favor, and make them drive into my DMs feet. So my DW positions himself towards the outside of the field to screen the pass along the flank, leaving the FB the way towards the center.

As soon as he brings the ball inside, the DW steps out and wins the ball from the opponent's feet, and then plays it to the AF (#11) who dribbles on the right.

The DW follows the action and provides immediate support in the internal channel to receive the pass from the AF and cross immediately into the box, where our TF scores the header.

 

-In this second example we found ourselves in a situation in which we are positioned with the low block, and the ball is once again at the feet of their LCB. The DW is alert in position controlling their LB

but is quick to sense and intercept the pass directed towards their #7 and starts a deadly counterattack, which develops with 3 diagonal passes between four players (#17-#11-#21-#10)...

...and in a matter of a few seconds we manage to find our LM totally unmarked entering in the box on the opposite flank, a spot from which he doesn't miss the diagonal shoot

 

•Target Forward: Not much to say, he must have the physique to act as a lamdmark for his teammates and to score many headers. More or less the same thing regarding the skills needed for the CBs, if he also has at least decent technical skills and Off the Ball it's all a win. The 'Plays with back to goal' trait is fundamental, which allows him to control the ball by keeping the opponent away with his strength. I bought Hornby in the 2nd season for around 2,5M, he boosted my offensive performances

Whit our setup it's quite easy to understand that he is the main scorer of the team, but he also knows how to make himself useful even as an assistman. Here too I will give you as an example two goals in which our TFs is involved

-The most frequent attacking pattern, really simple in its execution but very effective with the right players, sees the ball circulate between the players until it ends up on the right flank to our DW, who dribbles past the opponent and as soon as he sees the opportunity crosses to the far post for the TF, who wins the aerial duel. This can sometimes get us a goal out of the blue, unlocking matches in which we can struggle to create scoring chances centrally

 

-In this second example, the TF drops deep from the opponent's defensive line and gets the ball. At this point, either by a one-touch pass or after turning on his marker, he plays a diagonal through ball into the space behind the opposite centre-back, into which AM/AF runs, beating the opponent on the sprint and going 1vs1 with the goalkeeper. Alternatively the TF plays a short pass backwards towards the DM, who then sends AM/AF into the goal with a through ball.

Edited June 27 by Fox-7-