Revamping the 4-4-2 on FM24: how I tried to do it

[Fox-7-]

Hello guys, 

I open this topic to share my experience on FM 24 and start a discussion about a tactic that is particularly close to my heart, but which many consider to be behind times: the 4-4-2. 

Before I get started, I want to thank a few sources that inspired me. First of all, @crusadertsar and his Defence-First thread, which lit the fuse to direct my FM24 save with the Scottish team Kilmarnock towards the right path.

 

I also point out @ultrAslan's thread on the counterattack

 

@cocoadavid's thread on the defensive phase of the 4-4-2

 

And the precious contribution of users like @Cloud9, who scatters FM tactical gems here and there in every topic. 

I was looking for a way to combine my predilection for the 4-4-2 with creating a defensively solid team, but I also wanted to evolve the tactics in the attacking phase by not just doing Park the Bus and Hoofball, being able to take advantage of the excellent Positional Play feature of FM24. After reading and following some topics and testing the tactics with various tweaks, I managed to develop a set of tactics that gravitate around the shape of 4-4-2 (not literally according to the name given by the game, but which visually on the field they behave like this) which allow me to face various types of opponents that present themselves to me from time to time.

Remember well that I said 'to face', not 'to win' against any opponent. If you're looking for meta tactics that get you 5-0 wins in succession, forwards scoring 70+ goals per season and streaks of 20+ clean sheets, you're totally in the wrong place. As said, I'm managing Kilmarnock in Scotland, and I'm in the middle of the 5th season. My trophy cabinet? Still empty, but I'm costantly overachieving and this Is enough for me to enjoy the game, so I think I'm doing things with a sensibile approach.

I don't want to bother you with a disquisition on the pros and cons of the 4-4-2 setup, given that both this Forum and the web in general are full of tactical analyses, so I'll immediately move on to the world of FM to present you the first tactic that I use. I will leave a space of a few days between one tactic and another, so that we can have a clean discussion without mixing different concepts.

In these tactics you will find two key aspects: the presence of a big and strong TF and the double pivot in the DM strata. I use them there and not in the CM strata as IMO they more faithfully represent the behavior of this type of player IRL, i.e. closer to the defenders out of possession but still ready to accompany the attacking phase forward, I tried some combinations in the CM strata (like i.e. BBMs + CMd) but none of them fully satisfied me.

Tactic #1

This is the tactic I use most of the time, for theoretically balanced matches against opponents more or less of my level. I try to play a slightly more direct game to get the ball faster towards the final third in the phases in which the ball is in play, inviting my players to cross whenever they have the chance in order to take advantage of the aerial ability of my TF. When GK has the ball, however, I prefer to have the team in position and calmly start from the defenders (without forcing either with PooD in case of opponent pressing or with long throws to the TF which often end up far from him with the ball given away to the opponents). In defense we patiently wait for the right moment to press with standard settings and we create a more compact block by keeping the defensive line higher. Most of the time we protect the center by funneling the opponent towards the flanks, where we are still present with two players on each side.

The idea of my style of play is to have a build-up and a 3+2 rest defence. In our defensive third the double pivot remains the DMs + VOLs pair, but once we arrive in the opponent's half our shape morphs and is aimed at occupying the five channels with the FBa, VOLs, TFs, AMs, DWs. The interaction between WMs and VOLs is interesting: my original intent is to block WMs via the PIs towards the center of the field to free up the running of the VOLs

But despite this, WMs does not always remain at the center because it still has a hardcoded behavior as a wing player, so in the end the result is a hybrid where sometimes I achieve my first option, while in other cases an overload is created between WM/VOL/FB with a shape closer to a 3-1-6, which often gives us numerical superiority over our opponents.

On the right side we have the DWs, which takes care of the management of the flank almost entirely on its own. I am truly a big fan of this role, which I see little used when I see tactics from others, but from my experience I guarantee that with the right player a terrific balance is achieved between the defensive solidity of a FB and the offensive contribution of a W. In this role I often use a retrained FB and it works great. The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB. Our game focuses mainly on the wings, and the most frequent goal comes with a cross for the TF who dominates over high balls (also because in his teammates' PIs, where selectable, I aim the crosses towards him), but we manage to penetrate also centrally thanks to the players' movements without the ball.

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

I hope I have captured your attention, and encouraged you to start a discussion, share your experiences or constructive criticism. If you're interested in additional screenshots, just ask for them 

Edited June 13 by Fox-7-

[jc577]

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

10 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

This is a stroke of genius, will certainly be stealing that  I’ve noticed that sometimes we can jump into the press too much and players get dragged out of position, I think this solves it!
 

Looking forward to more!

[OJ403]

I have had a bit of success in past FMs with a flat 4-4-2 out of possession shape and a diamond 4-4-2 in possession. I used either dual IWBs and wingers or one IWB with a winger ahead and a WB with a WP in front of each side.

I've been meaning to try it again this year with the positional play improvements, but my main save has been in the National League South with Scarborough Athletic - we've only just hit the Championship so we don't really have the squad for such a system! I've been keen to try a 3-5-2 in possession variant with an IFB too...

[Los_Culés]

This is brilliant! I was hoping that you @Fox-7- start your own thread.  Also the other threads you posted are a must read for people that have a passion for good defensive football. They helped me immensely to learn how to transform real life defensive concepts to FM and more importantly how to start enjoying FM again (I jumped from FM12 to FM24).

DW is a great role (apart from the hard coded Hard Tackling). I currently use two DWs in my 4-4-2 (which is largely inspired by your tactic).

Looking forward to further updates! 

[Vođi]

This is really some inspiring reading!

[Fox-7-]

17 ore fa, jc577 ha scritto:

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

This is a stroke of genius, will certainly be stealing that  I’ve noticed that sometimes we can jump into the press too much and players get dragged out of position, I think this solves it!
 

Looking forward to more!

Thanks, TBH the concept of not pressing GKs and CBs at all was mentioned in the cocoadavid's topic I linked in the OP. If I remember correctly he applied it only using two strikers with support duties upfront to obtain perfect alignment in ahead of the opposing midfielders.

However, I seem to notice, but perhaps it's just my bias, that in this edition's ME the players perform the task more faithfully. Maybe it's also just due to a higher value of the Teamwork skill of the players I'm using compared to those of other saves I've played.

Waiting to see your tactics

 

9 ore fa, OJ403 ha scritto:

I have had a bit of success in past FMs with a flat 4-4-2 out of possession shape and a diamond 4-4-2 in possession. I used either dual IWBs and wingers or one IWB with a winger ahead and a WB with a WP in front of each side.

I've been meaning to try it again this year with the positional play improvements, but my main save has been in the National League South with Scarborough Athletic - we've only just hit the Championship so we don't really have the squad for such a system! I've been keen to try a 3-5-2 in possession variant with an IFB too...

IFBd was a great introduction this year to create a back three from a back four, we totally need this.

Interested in seeing the diamond shape in possession starting from a flat 442 in the line-up screen

 

8 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

This is brilliant! I was hoping that you @Fox-7- start your own thread.  Also the other threads you posted are a must read for people that have a passion for good defensive football. They helped me immensely to learn how to transform real life defensive concepts to FM and more importantly how to start enjoying FM again (I jumped from FM12 to FM24).

DW is a great role (apart from the hard coded Hard Tackling). I currently use two DWs in my 4-4-2 (which is largely inspired by your tactic).

Looking forward to further updates! 

Thanks mate! Yes, someone might remember seeing some of my posts in crusadetstar's topic. As said, this was my starting point, then I focused exclusively on building a suitable team for the 442, maybe in the future I'll post something about my recruitment strategy. Does double DWs allow you to have more offensive/creative roles in the middle of the park or more roaming defenders like an IWBa for example? I still have to test the DW on defend duty to see the differences and understand in what situations or with what combinations of roles next to him could do well

 

4 ore fa, Vođi ha scritto:

This is really some inspiring reading!

Thank you! 

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-I currently use DM-D, DM-S (very good, customizable role), and 2X DW-S (+ defensive fullbacks ). The reason for double DW-S is that they seem to defend their respective flank more reliably than Winger/Inverted Winger roles (and even if the players actually have quite poor defensive attributes). I really like when they double on opposition Wingers in cooperation with the fullbacks. They also work great if they play with opposite foot on their flank (eg. right footed DW-S in ML Position). The only headache is the hard tackling as it can easily lead to silly fouls and red cards (eg. I was comfortably leading 2-0 when my DW got a red card, luckily I still managed to win 3-2 ).

[warlock]

4 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

maybe in the future I'll post something about my recruitment strategy

I'd like to read that . I used to be a big fan of 442 but haven't played it for at least a couple of years. My biggest issue is the lack of natural MR/ML players and the vast number of AMR/AMLs who are 'awkward' or worse if you start them 15 yards deeper. I know it doesn't/shouldn't matter but when all of the in-game feedback says you're making a mistake, it's hard to maintain your confidence in the shape and player selection.

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, warlock said:

I'd like to read that . I used to be a big fan of 442 but haven't played it for at least a couple of years. My biggest issue is the lack of natural MR/ML players and the vast number of AMR/AMLs who are 'awkward' or worse if you start them 15 yards deeper. I know it doesn't/shouldn't matter but when all of the in-game feedback says you're making a mistake, it's hard to maintain your confidence in the shape and player selection.

It really does not make a difference. Aside from a tiny negligible decision attribute hit (like 1-2 value hit). I don't even think about it anymore when playing a player out of position, not since FM14. As long as their attributes are suited to it. 

Edited June 14 by crusadertsar

[warlock]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

It really does not make a difference

Good to know... I'll try to be braver 

[Los_Culés]

When my forwards are unvailable/injured I play my DC as a TF (190cm +, good HEA + JUM, OTB 10, Finishing 5) and he does his job even when he has no positional awareness to play as a forward. Attributes are the only thing that matters to me.

Edited June 15 by Los_Culés

[TheMartello]

On 13/06/2024 at 14:12, Fox-7- said:

Hello guys, 

I open this topic to share my experience on FM 24 and start a discussion about a tactic that is particularly close to my heart, but which many consider to be behind times: the 4-4-2. 

Before I get started, I want to thank a few sources that inspired me. First of all, @crusadertsar and his Defence-First thread, which lit the fuse to direct my FM24 save with the Scottish team Kilmarnock towards the right path.

 

I also point out @ultrAslan's thread on the counterattack

 

@cocoadavid's thread on the defensive phase of the 4-4-2

 

And the precious contribution of users like @Cloud9, who scatters FM tactical gems here and there in every topic. 

I was looking for a way to combine my predilection for the 4-4-2 with creating a defensively solid team, but I also wanted to evolve the tactics in the attacking phase by not just doing Park the Bus and Hoofball, being able to take advantage of the excellent Positional Play feature of FM24. After reading and following some topics and testing the tactics with various tweaks, I managed to develop a set of tactics that gravitate around the shape of 4-4-2 (not literally according to the name given by the game, but which visually on the field they behave like this) which allow me to face various types of opponents that present themselves to me from time to time.

Remember well that I said 'to face', not 'to win' against any opponent. If you're looking for meta tactics that get you 5-0 wins in succession, forwards scoring 70+ goals per season and streaks of 20+ clean sheets, you're totally in the wrong place. As said, I'm managing Kilmarnock in Scotland, and I'm in the middle of the 5th season. My trophy cabinet? Still empty, but I'm costantly overachieving and this Is enough for me to enjoy the game, so I think I'm doing things with a sensibile approach.

I don't want to bother you with a disquisition on the pros and cons of the 4-4-2 setup, given that both this Forum and the web in general are full of tactical analyses, so I'll immediately move on to the world of FM to present you the first tactic that I use. I will leave a space of a few days between one tactic and another, so that we can have a clean discussion without mixing different concepts.

In these tactics you will find two key aspects: the presence of a big and strong TF and the double pivot in the DM strata. I use them there and not in the CM strata as IMO they more faithfully represent the behavior of this type of player IRL, i.e. closer to the defenders out of possession but still ready to accompany the attacking phase forward, I tried some combinations in the CM strata (like i.e. BBMs + CMd) but none of them fully satisfied me.

Tactic #1

This is the tactic I use most of the time, for theoretically balanced matches against opponents more or less of my level. I try to play a slightly more direct game to get the ball faster towards the final third in the phases in which the ball is in play, inviting my players to cross whenever they have the chance in order to take advantage of the aerial ability of my TF. When GK has the ball, however, I prefer to have the team in position and calmly start from the defenders (without forcing either with PooD in case of opponent pressing or with long throws to the TF which often end up far from him with the ball given away to the opponents). In defense we patiently wait for the right moment to press with standard settings and we create a more compact block by keeping the defensive line higher. Most of the time we protect the center by funneling the opponent towards the flanks, where we are still present with two players on each side.

The idea of my style of play is to have a build-up and a 3+2 rest defence. In our defensive third the double pivot remains the DMs + VOLs pair, but once we arrive in the opponent's half our shape morphs and is aimed at occupying the five channels with the FBa, VOLs, TFs, AMs, DWs. The interaction between WMs and VOLs is interesting: my original intent is to block WMs via the PIs towards the center of the field to free up the running of the VOLs

But despite this, WMs does not always remain at the center because it still has a hardcoded behavior as a wing player, so in the end the result is a hybrid where sometimes I achieve my first option, while in other cases an overload is created between WM/VOL/FB with a shape closer to a 3-1-6, which often gives us numerical superiority over our opponents.

On the right side we have the DWs, which takes care of the management of the flank almost entirely on its own. I am truly a big fan of this role, which I see little used when I see tactics from others, but from my experience I guarantee that with the right player a terrific balance is achieved between the defensive solidity of a FB and the offensive contribution of a W. In this role I often use a retrained FB and it works great. The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB. Our game focuses mainly on the wings, and the most frequent goal comes with a cross for the TF who dominates over high balls (also because in his teammates' PIs, where selectable, I aim the crosses towards him), but we manage to penetrate also centrally thanks to the players' movements without the ball.

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

I hope I have captured your attention, and encouraged you to start a discussion, share your experiences or constructive criticism. If you're interested in additional screenshots, just ask for them 

 

Do you use any other player instructions on your players except the ones mentioned on WM + VOL, and the crossing ones to the TF on all of your players?

[OJ403]

15 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Interested in seeing the diamond shape in possession starting from a flat 442 in the line-up screen

If memory serves me correctly it looked something along these lines:

AF/A -- CF/A

W/S -- CM/A -- DLP/D -- W/A

IWB/S -- CD/D -- CD/D -- IWB/S

SK/D

Whereby the DLP was the base, the IWBs the sides and the CM/A the tip of the diamond. I also swapped the W/S for a WP/S and the IWB behind him to a WB at times, with the WP being part of the diamond. 

I see this working much better in FM24.

[Fox-7-]

23 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-I currently use DM-D, DM-S (very good, customizable role), and 2X DW-S (+ defensive fullbacks ). The reason for double DW-S is that they seem to defend their respective flank more reliably than Winger/Inverted Winger roles (and even if the players actually have quite poor defensive attributes). I really like when they double on opposition Wingers in cooperation with the fullbacks. They also work great if they play with opposite foot on their flank (eg. right footed DW-S in ML Position). The only headache is the hard tackling as it can easily lead to silly fouls and red cards (eg. I was comfortably leading 2-0 when my DW got a red card, luckily I still managed to win 3-2 ).

What a careful approach...I expect a very tight defence hard to break down, I like It! What roles do you play upfront?

 

9 ore fa, TheMartello ha scritto:

 

Do you use any other player instructions on your players except the ones mentioned on WM + VOL, and the crossing ones to the TF on all of your players?

Yes, a few others. I'm not playing FM ATM, but I can remember:

-'Shoot less' to LFB

-'Tackle Harder', 'Hold Position', 'Dribble less' and 'Shoot less' to DMs

-'Shorter passing' to TFs

-'Take more risks' to AMa

Situationally I add 'Dribble more' to AMa and 'Get further forward' to DWs

 

9 ore fa, OJ403 ha scritto:

If memory serves me correctly it looked something along these lines:

AF/A -- CF/A

W/S -- CM/A -- DLP/D -- W/A

IWB/S -- CD/D -- CD/D -- IWB/S

SK/D

Whereby the DLP was the base, the IWBs the sides and the CM/A the tip of the diamond. I also swapped the W/S for a WP/S and the IWB behind him to a WB at times, with the WP being part of the diamond. 

I see this working much better in FM24.

Contrary to Los_Culés this seems a very aggressive formation, does it become a 2-Diamond-4? A lot of movement, do your players struggle to track back to their positions when possession is lost?

Edited June 15 by Fox-7-

[TheMartello]

On 14/06/2024 at 00:59, jc577 said:

Amazing thread mate, 442 has been my favourite formation on FM since I started playing. I’ve recently developed a 442 built in a similar mould, attack quickly but not too quickly, and it’s working wonderfully so far. Will share tomorrow! 

 

Any update? :x

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-Well, I have just recently switched to this approach and played only like 7-10 full matches (Baldurs Gate 3 is eating a lot of my time resources, btw. I play defensively even in RPGs ), but things  look good. I am still conceding but mainly due to individual mistakes which I believe will be mitigated as soon as my team gells a bit. Also I am having quite a few problems with half of my team being nervous during the matches for no apparent reason but again I believe it will get better (I actually think this is happening when my team is overachieving eg. I am predicted to finish 12. and everytime my teams breaks into top 8 my players start getting nervous). Upfront I play TF-S (staple of my team inspired by F. Hornby from your team ) and PF-D or PF-A (depending on what I need in the match).

[OJ403]

4 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

Contrary to Los_Culés this seems a very aggressive formation, does it become a 2-Diamond-4? A lot of movement, do your players struggle to track back to their positions when possession is lost?

It wasn't as aggressive as you'd think actually. I played it during FM20 or 21 when Wayne Rooney was at Derby County (my team), so there was no positional play or anything. We played on a lower mentality so the attack duty CM and similar players weren't too aggressive.

In truth I only achieved the diamond with a double IWB set up but this made us far too predictable when attacking, so I dropped to one and a more 3 man on the ball midfield than 4.

We weren't too exposed on the counter, no. We pressed pretty high so that was quite useful for turnovers. In actual fact the logic of packing the midfield made us hard to counter (think Pep's logic for first implementing inverting his defenders).

It did require very physically adept midfielders though!

[jc577]

So the tactic below is what I've been working with at Valencia over the past two seasons, finishing 3rd in my first season, and currently sitting in 1st by 3 points, although Madrid and Barca both have two games in hand.

The idea behind the tactic is simple, sit in a nice mid-block, be aggressive when they enter my half, and hit them hard & fast. The original version of the tactic had the F9/DLF (I change this dependent on the player) swapped over, but what I found was the support duty forward and the SV just didn't get on. Since the change, the SV is 10x better in terms of scoring and assisting, and actually the spread of the whole team across the pitch looks better too - often, the support forward and the SV form a two behind the PF, with the IW tucking in, the WB overlapping, and the winger holding the width. 

On 14/06/2024 at 17:43, Fox-7- said:

Thanks, TBH the concept of not pressing GKs and CBs at all was mentioned in the cocoadavid's topic I linked in the OP. If I remember correctly he applied it only using two strikers with support duties upfront to obtain perfect alignment in ahead of the opposing midfielders.

I tried experimenting with this but felt it made us a bit too passive, could be a variety of reasons for this, but I'm thinking the defensive line would need to be higher in order to pull this off, or more aggressive closing down from midfield - one to keep in mind for the future though.

In terms of recruitment, I prioritise good levels of teamwork, work rate, aggression, bravery and determination across the whole squad - these are non-negotiable for me and are key to the style we're looking to implement. 

After further reading in this thread, very tempted to try the DW-S! 

The only PI's are:

WB-A - run wide with ball

IWB-S - shoot less often

DM-S - Hold Position

IW-S - take more risks, cross more often (Almeida is a very good crosser)

[Fox-7-]

Il 15/06/2024 in 20:58 , Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-Well, I have just recently switched to this approach and played only like 7-10 full matches (Baldurs Gate 3 is eating a lot of my time resources, btw. I play defensively even in RPGs ), but things  look good. I am still conceding but mainly due to individual mistakes which I believe will be mitigated as soon as my team gells a bit. Also I am having quite a few problems with half of my team being nervous during the matches for no apparent reason but again I believe it will get better (I actually think this is happening when my team is overachieving eg. I am predicted to finish 12. and everytime my teams breaks into top 8 my players start getting nervous). Upfront I play TF-S (staple of my team inspired by F. Hornby from your team ) and PF-D or PF-A (depending on what I need in the match).

In the previous answer I forgot to mention the fact that you sometimes play DW on their 'wrong foot', how they behave when in possession? If i Remember correctly they have hardcoded PIs like 'run wide with ball' and 'stay wider'. Or do you feel that they are more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot' when opponents try to cut inside? Nice pair upfront, di you customize your DMs to join more the final third to act like a more conservative Segundo Volante? And last, on what mentality do you play this tactic?

 

Il 15/06/2024 in 23:46 , OJ403 ha scritto:

It wasn't as aggressive as you'd think actually. I played it during FM20 or 21 when Wayne Rooney was at Derby County (my team), so there was no positional play or anything. We played on a lower mentality so the attack duty CM and similar players weren't too aggressive.

In truth I only achieved the diamond with a double IWB set up but this made us far too predictable when attacking, so I dropped to one and a more 3 man on the ball midfield than 4.

We weren't too exposed on the counter, no. We pressed pretty high so that was quite useful for turnovers. In actual fact the logic of packing the midfield made us hard to counter (think Pep's logic for first implementing inverting his defenders).

It did require very physically adept midfielders though!

I understand, strong rest defence to camp in the opponent's half. Hardworking horses in the middle surely are a must with your approach

 

Il 17/06/2024 in 08:29 , jc577 ha scritto:

So the tactic below is what I've been working with at Valencia over the past two seasons, finishing 3rd in my first season, and currently sitting in 1st by 3 points, although Madrid and Barca both have two games in hand.

The idea behind the tactic is simple, sit in a nice mid-block, be aggressive when they enter my half, and hit them hard & fast. The original version of the tactic had the F9/DLF (I change this dependent on the player) swapped over, but what I found was the support duty forward and the SV just didn't get on. Since the change, the SV is 10x better in terms of scoring and assisting, and actually the spread of the whole team across the pitch looks better too - often, the support forward and the SV form a two behind the PF, with the IW tucking in, the WB overlapping, and the winger holding the width. 

I tried experimenting with this but felt it made us a bit too passive, could be a variety of reasons for this, but I'm thinking the defensive line would need to be higher in order to pull this off, or more aggressive closing down from midfield - one to keep in mind for the future though.

In terms of recruitment, I prioritise good levels of teamwork, work rate, aggression, bravery and determination across the whole squad - these are non-negotiable for me and are key to the style we're looking to implement. 

After further reading in this thread, very tempted to try the DW-S! 

The only PI's are:

WB-A - run wide with ball

IWB-S - shoot less often

DM-S - Hold Position

IW-S - take more risks, cross more often (Almeida is a very good crosser)

Thanks for sharing. A higher DL could help to reduce the space available for opponents wingers and #10 spot. I added 'Tackle harder' PI to my double pivot players to try to be more prone to shut down shots from outside the box. This tactic is similar to mine that I use when I'm the favorite team, which I will show in my next post. Some roles change but I agree that the spreading of the players on the pitch is very effective for building dangerous attacks.

Edited June 18 by Fox-7-

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-Well, see for yourselves what my DW is capable to do . The DWs hardcoded PIs are actually welcomed even when he plays on his "wrong foot" as for me it just means that he does not cut inside so early. Mo Salah is not DW IRL but this is what he does (ie. playing as a Winger on his "wrong foot"). About being more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot, this is actually a great insight from you but I did not have this in mind. Would be wonderful if it works this way but I would need to test/specifically focus on this. I primarily wanted my DW to go deeper without the possession and keep opp. Fullback under control. DM-S role naturally plays like conservative "Segundo Volante", I added PIs Tackle Harder, Shoot Less Often, Take Fewer Risks (as due to lack of Vision I want him to play horizontally first and foremost). I use Balanced Mentality but I think Cautious could also work for superhard matches.

 

[OJ403]

8 hours ago, Fox-7- said:

I understand, strong rest defence to camp in the opponent's half. Hardworking horses in the middle surely are a must with your approach

Exactly that. The four across the midfield and two fullbacks must have really good work rate and stamina. Strength and pace was helpful too - Rice and Bellingham would be an ideal central midfield pairing.

[Fox-7-]

23 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-Well, see for yourselves what my DW is capable to do . The DWs hardcoded PIs are actually welcomed even when he plays on his "wrong foot" as for me it just means that he does not cut inside so early. Mo Salah is not DW IRL but this is what he does (ie. playing as a Winger on his "wrong foot"). About being more efficient to protect the center of the field by tackling with their strong foot, this is actually a great insight from you but I did not have this in mind. Would be wonderful if it works this way but I would need to test/specifically focus on this. I primarily wanted my DW to go deeper without the possession and keep opp. Fullback under control. DM-S role naturally plays like conservative "Segundo Volante", I added PIs Tackle Harder, Shoot Less Often, Take Fewer Risks (as due to lack of Vision I want him to play horizontally first and foremost). I use Balanced Mentality but I think Cautious could also work for superhard matches.

 

Nice goal, I love how your #40 and #41 physically blocks opponent #15 and #32 (and #5 in the end) and your #15 runs to catch the attention of their #20, so Dyani has ton of space to run into e go for the goal...this is true Teamwork!

Edited June 19 by Fox-7-

[jc577]

On 18/06/2024 at 09:41, Fox-7- said:

Thanks for sharing. A higher DL could help to reduce the space available for opponents wingers and #10 spot. I added 'Tackle harder' PI to my double pivot players to try to be more prone to shut down shots from outside the box. This tactic is similar to mine that I use when I'm the favorite team, which I will show in my next post. Some roles change but I agree that the spreading of the players on the pitch is very effective for building dangerous attacks.

I did think a higher DL could be the trick here and it makes sense... if we're sitting off completely with our strikers, the defence/midfield behind them need to be compact otherwise it's easy to play through, which is exactly what I saw. I've recruited some quicker CB's now so will give the OI's another try with a higher line! 

Very interested to see your tactic mate. I'm currently deciding between using an IWB or IFB... the IWB's positioning is a bit too narrow for my liking, at least the way it plays out in a 442. Feel like the role is meant to provide easy access to the winger but he has to drop deeper to receive, and the connection to his flank seems off. My thinking is that an IFB creating a back three in build up will stretch the pitch, the SV on the same side will drop a bit deeper and provide a better connection to the winger. We'll see!

[Fox-7-]

Tactic #2

 

This tactic is deployed when we are the clear favorite team in a match. I change my offensive approach while maintaining the same defensive attitude. First of all, we add some threat by transforming some roles such as FBa into WBa, WMs into IWs and VOLs into VOLa (moved to the right), in order to have runs that come from different channels and depths. We also reverse the duties of the offensive pair: TF goes on attack and AM goes on support, so we have the physical presence of the TFa who occupies the defenders closest to the goal, and AMs who stays a little further back assuming the function of the creator of chances in the attacking third. In front of our back four DMs becomes DLPs moved to the left to better cover the WBL bombing forward. Since in theory we have more time to manage the ball we can give the ball to him while waiting for our players to reach the attacking positions with optimal timing. In order to achieve this, the change of TI from Counter to Hold Shape becomes essential: since we will often easily recover the ball from their clearances or long balls, it becomes useless to tell my players to immediately run against a wall, also because I have already given them roles with a higher basic mentality and that should be enough. I noticed that the Positional Play feature, in the VOLa combination behind the AMs, comes into play in an unexpected way: in fact I would have bet on the VOLa moving straight forward to the centre-right forcing the AMs to shift to the centre-left, while instead it is the VOLa that does a diagonal run to go into the AML spot. I believe this unexpected outcome adds a further threat to our attacks, given that this movement is more difficult for the opponent to track and our VOLa often finds itself totally unmarked in a dangerous position.

 

When in possession, we return to Standard passing directness to avoid rushing decisions, but we keep Hit early crosses as I noticed that comes in help to punish any mispositioning of the opposing defense. The build-up and rest-defense phase switches to a 2+3 with the IFBd-->IWBs change on the right to have an extra player in the middle of the field, but I can return to the original version in case the opponent plays with two central attackers, to maintain superiority at the back. This could answer to @jc577's dilemma. It's all a matter of where you want to have numerical advantage in your early build-up (apart from goal kicks where all seems to start from a standard (1)+2+4 shape with (GK)/CB-CB/RFB-DM-DM-LFB. Only once we get into the middle third IWB start to cut inside and WB to move forward. Once we have estabilished in the opponent's half, VOLa leaves his DM position and joind or front line, and our shape becomes and hybrid between a 3-1-6 (CB-DLP-CB/IWB, like in the screenshot above) and a 2-2-6 (CB-CB/IWB-DLP), depending on how much deep out DLPs drops to play the ball

 

Out of possession I adopt a slightly more aggressive pressing to limit their counter-attacking opportunities (if I see that it's not enough I occasionally add Get Stuck In, I avoid Counter-press because I want to recover my 4-4-2 shape when I lose possession). I use the same OIs on GK and CBs mentioned in OP. Even if I can afford to press more CBs with bad on the ball skills and bet on an eventual mistake, I found that not pressing them very often forces a long ball that I've nearly the 100% chance to collect, thanks to the ability in aerial duels of my back four players.

Edited June 20 by Fox-7-

[Fox-7-]

Tactic #3

Now, here's my favorite tactic of the entire set, even though it's the one I use least frequently. In fact, it is my approach for matches in which I am by far the weakest team, where we need to shut down everything in defense and have maximum performance in attack, a classic defense and counterattack (therefore I use it in the matches against Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership and in most of the matches in European competitions). To get what I want, some of the player roles has to change. The back four is deployed with conservative roles: LFBa switches to a support duty, and having given him the Hold position PI, our RFB doesn't need to invert into the field, becoming a classic FBd to better guard the flank. The double pivot must mainly act as a screen in front of the defense to force their attacks to go towards the flanks: therefore I opt for a DMd and DMs pair. This way we have 6 players aimed at protecting the goal.

With this approach we don't rely on Positional Play, we don't have time to build a sustained attack, so I don't want to waste any with ball circulation and the invert here, overload there & co. stuff. For our direct attacks we "unlock" LM which from WMs becomes IWa, this time with the Stay wider PI to allow him to have more space at the beginning of the possession phase, to be able to receive the ball and directly target the opposing defense by carrying the ball towards the goal. On the right I always rely on my faithful DWs (to which I add Get further forward PI to increase their offensive initiative), while upfront this time we create a real couple, with the usual TFs and the AMa who advances to become an AFa, (PF in the screenshot is probabily a misclick] always ready to run behind the CBs in the large spaces that are presumably granted to us. We therefore play with slightly more direct passes and a slightly higher tempo so as not to get caught up in their probable pressing, and the Counter TI is activated again to hit in transition as quickly as possible. In possession, the result is to have a more structured shape, with a clear 4-2-4 layout right from the initial build-up. Certainly in phases of prolonged possession we can be more predictable, but since over the 90' there is probably less time with the ball than the opponents, I want to have my 4 players always ready to attack with a quick transition when we recover the ball and they are with some players away from their optimal defensive positions.

 

In defense we position ourselves with a Low block, lowering the DL to a Standard height: given that since we are all already in our half and with the pivot in the DM strata we are already well equipped to cover their AM strata, a slightly lower DL than the one I usually use comes in handy to take away space from their forwards in the situation in which we are most vulnerable due to our characteristics, namely Peace and Agility.

 

In case of success the satisfactions obtained with this tactic are the greatest, here are some of my best recent 'Giant Killings' (don't mind the formation with the AM instead of AF, I change the tactic in the Team Talk screen before the kick off since it's currently out of my three available slots, but the UI depict it as if I have never changed it):

Sometimes you need a little luck

 

Sometimes we gain a well deserved win

 

Sometimes it's an unexpected slaughter (Sorry @crusadertsar )

 

Obviously it isn't always puppies and rainbows, when the opponents are strong things could take the wrong path in the blink of and eye, and the entire game plan goes down the drain

Edited June 25 by Fox-7-

[shaneomac]

Do you use any other PI's for tactics 2 and 3?

[Fox-7-]

1 ora fa, shaneomac ha scritto:

Do you use any other PI's for tactics 2 and 3?

No, none other than those mentioned 

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-I am currently working on something like combining your Tactic #1 with your Tactic #3 plus some of my own tweaks (eg. playing with two DWs ) in my default tactic. And it has been working decently so far. Will test it more in near future but what I am trying to achieve is Defence-First Approach with some controlling element (in my interpretation this is combining Low Block, Counters + More Disciplined Approach with Possession and therefore having one IFB-D, applying Balanced Mentality, Normal Directness and Normal Tempo). Also your tip to give DW -S PI "Go Further Forward" in Low Block setup seems to be a great advise. 

[Fox-7-]

12 ore fa, Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-I am currently working on something like combining your Tactic #1 with your Tactic #3 plus some of my own tweaks (eg. playing with two DWs ) in my default tactic. And it has been working decently so far. Will test it more in near future but what I am trying to achieve is Defence-First Approach with some controlling element (in my interpretation this is combining Low Block, Counters + More Disciplined Approach with Possession and therefore having one IFB-D, applying Balanced Mentality, Normal Directness and Normal Tempo). Also your tip to give DW -S PI "Go Further Forward" in Low Block setup seems to be a great advise. 

Great, feel totally free to share the tactics and your considerations, I would like to see and understand how an even more conservative approach than mine works.

Soon I will post an update with a little insight into what I think are the key roles of my tactics

[Fox-7-]

Key roles

After having shown the three tactics that I mainly use, I want to focus for a moment on what in my opinion are the key roles for their functioning, which as you have seen I never change in any version, and on the type of players I use in my team (playing with Kilmarnock they are obviously not the absolute perfect prototype, but you get the idea)

•Centre Back: Since I have focused on a rather defensive game philosophy we will often have to face parts of the game in which the opponents will be near our penalty area, so I want them to have physical dominance in this area of the pitch, therefore tall defenders around 190cm (and more) with good values of Jumping Reach, Strength, Baravery, Anticipation, Decisions. On the other hand, Agility and Pace are not their cup of tea, so over the course of the season some goals conceded with balls played behind them are to be taken into account. From my team here is the example of Lewis Mayo, present in the First team squad since the start of the save. I have to turn a blind eye to his Composure and Decisions, but already having someone with these characteristics at home is a very good starting point if you don't have the money. He can also play as a FB, and when I use Tactic #3 I can fit 4 CBs like him in all the back four positions.

 

•Defensive Winger: this player must be rather well-rounded having to make a great contribution both in possession and without the ball. In this role I often prefer to use a player whose natural position is that of FB: if I have to choose, the priority goes to the defensive characteristics, at the expense of a couple of points less in Flair, Dribbling and Off the ball. But with Missori I don't have this problem anymore

I find the contribution of this role in my tactics unparalleled. To support this statement, I give you the example of two goals scored in the match against Real Sociedad in the Europa League.

-In the first they start from the goal kick, and their LCB passes the ball to their LFB. They are using a flat 442 with the FBs and Ws on their strong side, so I select the Trap Inside TI to avoid too much 1vs1 on the flanks with the technical advantage in their favor, and make them drive into my DMs feet. So my DW positions himself towards the outside of the field to screen the pass along the flank, leaving the FB the way towards the center.

As soon as he brings the ball inside, the DW steps out and wins the ball from the opponent's feet, and then plays it to the AF (#11) who dribbles on the right.

The DW follows the action and provides immediate support in the internal channel to receive the pass from the AF and cross immediately into the box, where our TF scores the header.

 

-In this second example we found ourselves in a situation in which we are positioned with the low block, and the ball is once again at the feet of their LCB. The DW is alert in position controlling their LB

but is quick to sense and intercept the pass directed towards their #7 and starts a deadly counterattack, which develops with 3 diagonal passes between four players (#17-#11-#21-#10)...

...and in a matter of a few seconds we manage to find our LM totally unmarked entering in the box on the opposite flank, a spot from which he doesn't miss the diagonal shoot

 

•Target Forward: Not much to say, he must have the physique to act as a lamdmark for his teammates and to score many headers. More or less the same thing regarding the skills needed for the CBs, if he also has at least decent technical skills and Off the Ball it's all a win. The 'Plays with back to goal' trait is fundamental, which allows him to control the ball by keeping the opponent away with his strength. I bought Hornby in the 2nd season for around 2,5M, he boosted my offensive performances

Whit our setup it's quite easy to understand that he is the main scorer of the team, but he also knows how to make himself useful even as an assistman. Here too I will give you as an example two goals in which our TFs is involved

-The most frequent attacking pattern, really simple in its execution but very effective with the right players, sees the ball circulate between the players until it ends up on the right flank to our DW, who dribbles past the opponent and as soon as he sees the opportunity crosses to the far post for the TF, who wins the aerial duel. This can sometimes get us a goal out of the blue, unlocking matches in which we can struggle to create scoring chances centrally

 

-In this second example, the TF drops deep from the opponent's defensive line and gets the ball. At this point, either by a one-touch pass or after turning on his marker, he plays a diagonal through ball into the space behind the opposite centre-back, into which AM/AF runs, beating the opponent on the sprint and going 1vs1 with the goalkeeper. Alternatively the TF plays a short pass backwards towards the DM, who then sends AM/AF into the goal with a through ball.

Edited June 27 by Fox-7-

[caco4003]

En 13/6/2024 a las 9:12, Fox-7- dijo:

Hello guys, 

I open this topic to share my experience on FM 24 and start a discussion about a tactic that is particularly close to my heart, but which many consider to be behind times: the 4-4-2. 

Before I get started, I want to thank a few sources that inspired me. First of all, @crusadertsar and his Defence-First thread, which lit the fuse to direct my FM24 save with the Scottish team Kilmarnock towards the right path.

 

I also point out @ultrAslan's thread on the counterattack

 

@cocoadavid's thread on the defensive phase of the 4-4-2

 

And the precious contribution of users like @Cloud9, who scatters FM tactical gems here and there in every topic. 

I was looking for a way to combine my predilection for the 4-4-2 with creating a defensively solid team, but I also wanted to evolve the tactics in the attacking phase by not just doing Park the Bus and Hoofball, being able to take advantage of the excellent Positional Play feature of FM24. After reading and following some topics and testing the tactics with various tweaks, I managed to develop a set of tactics that gravitate around the shape of 4-4-2 (not literally according to the name given by the game, but which visually on the field they behave like this) which allow me to face various types of opponents that present themselves to me from time to time.

Remember well that I said 'to face', not 'to win' against any opponent. If you're looking for meta tactics that get you 5-0 wins in succession, forwards scoring 70+ goals per season and streaks of 20+ clean sheets, you're totally in the wrong place. As said, I'm managing Kilmarnock in Scotland, and I'm in the middle of the 5th season. My trophy cabinet? Still empty, but I'm costantly overachieving and this Is enough for me to enjoy the game, so I think I'm doing things with a sensibile approach.

I don't want to bother you with a disquisition on the pros and cons of the 4-4-2 setup, given that both this Forum and the web in general are full of tactical analyses, so I'll immediately move on to the world of FM to present you the first tactic that I use. I will leave a space of a few days between one tactic and another, so that we can have a clean discussion without mixing different concepts.

In these tactics you will find two key aspects: the presence of a big and strong TF and the double pivot in the DM strata. I use them there and not in the CM strata as IMO they more faithfully represent the behavior of this type of player IRL, i.e. closer to the defenders out of possession but still ready to accompany the attacking phase forward, I tried some combinations in the CM strata (like i.e. BBMs + CMd) but none of them fully satisfied me.

Tactic #1

This is the tactic I use most of the time, for theoretically balanced matches against opponents more or less of my level. I try to play a slightly more direct game to get the ball faster towards the final third in the phases in which the ball is in play, inviting my players to cross whenever they have the chance in order to take advantage of the aerial ability of my TF. When GK has the ball, however, I prefer to have the team in position and calmly start from the defenders (without forcing either with PooD in case of opponent pressing or with long throws to the TF which often end up far from him with the ball given away to the opponents). In defense we patiently wait for the right moment to press with standard settings and we create a more compact block by keeping the defensive line higher. Most of the time we protect the center by funneling the opponent towards the flanks, where we are still present with two players on each side.

The idea of my style of play is to have a build-up and a 3+2 rest defence. In our defensive third the double pivot remains the DMs + VOLs pair, but once we arrive in the opponent's half our shape morphs and is aimed at occupying the five channels with the FBa, VOLs, TFs, AMs, DWs. The interaction between WMs and VOLs is interesting: my original intent is to block WMs via the PIs towards the center of the field to free up the running of the VOLs

But despite this, WMs does not always remain at the center because it still has a hardcoded behavior as a wing player, so in the end the result is a hybrid where sometimes I achieve my first option, while in other cases an overload is created between WM/VOL/FB with a shape closer to a 3-1-6, which often gives us numerical superiority over our opponents.

On the right side we have the DWs, which takes care of the management of the flank almost entirely on its own. I am truly a big fan of this role, which I see little used when I see tactics from others, but from my experience I guarantee that with the right player a terrific balance is achieved between the defensive solidity of a FB and the offensive contribution of a W. In this role I often use a retrained FB and it works great. The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB. Our game focuses mainly on the wings, and the most frequent goal comes with a cross for the TF who dominates over high balls (also because in his teammates' PIs, where selectable, I aim the crosses towards him), but we manage to penetrate also centrally thanks to the players' movements without the ball.

Out of possession we take the shape of a classic 442, but to achieve this from my personal experience I believe it is essential to instruct the OIs to never tight mark nor trigger press on their GK and their CBs, whether two or three. In this way we avoid our two advanced players chasing the ball on their build-up, but they have to focus on cutting passing lines towards the centre, limiting their options from the start and avoiding a snowball effect with our players behind moving from their area to go and recover the ball as would happen if the first pressing was easily missed.

I hope I have captured your attention, and encouraged you to start a discussion, share your experiences or constructive criticism. If you're interested in additional screenshots, just ask for them 

hi, is there a reason why you put your AM to the right instead of the center? 

cheers.

[Fox-7-]

Il 08/07/2024 in 00:16 , caco4003 ha scritto:

hi, is there a reason why you put your AM to the right instead of the center? 

cheers.

Yes, I explained that right in the OP

Il 13/06/2024 in 14:12 , Fox-7- ha scritto:

The offensive pair sees us using a TFs and an AMa positioned asymmetrically: in this way we guarantee ourselves an aligned pair in the non-possession phase to act as the first defensive screen, while when we attack AMa has more space both to run behind the opposing CBs and to be closer to the DW and give him more support or catch the attention of their LFB/LWB.

 

Also, I can occasionally give him the 'run wide with the ball' PI, for example if I see them using an aggressive role from their left side like a WB or an adventurous WCB, and they hand me that space on a plate to attack into. Additionally, some of the players I use in that position have the 'runs with ball often' or 'runs with ball down right' trait, which further ehnances this action.

Out of possession, I found that aligned TF and AM didn't do what I wanted in standing as a couple cutting off passing lines to opponent's DM/CM players

[Fox-7-]

Tactic #4

Having focused in this save on a TF as something set in concrete, I deployed this tactic among my slots taking inspiration from one of the symbolic TFs of the early '00s, namely Jan Koller, 'the Human Lighthouse' from the Czech Republic. And in particular, that fantastic team that was the Czech Republic at Euro 2004 came to mind. I have in mind most of those players given that, being Italian and a Juventus fan, I had the opportunity to see about half of that starting XI playing in Serie A in the first decade of the '00s (Obviously the 2003 Ballon d'Or winner Pavel Nedved, 'the Czech Fury', in my team, but also Poborsky at Lazio, Jankulovski at Napoli, Udinese and Milan, and subsequently also Ujfalusi and Grygera in Fiorentina and Juventus). In addition to these and the aforementioned Koller, that national team also included Rosicky and Baros, and their coach Bruckner often fielded all these players together on the pitch. It was sometimes painted as a flat 442

Others instead like a 442/4132 Diamond Wide

 

Unfortunately, not much material is available regarding the tactical side of that team, but by watching some videos here and there between highlights and entire stretches of matches I think I managed to give a fairly realistic interpretation, which I transferred to FM like this creating a hybrid between the two alternatives.

 

An offensive and structured vocation can be seen, with five players already in the most advanced areas and the addition of the overlapping LWB (Jankulovski) to occupy the left flank. IWa (Nedved) is clearly the most peculiar player in this system, a total player that cuts inside aiming for the goal and has total freedom to go wherever he wants and do whatever he wants, with aggressive manners when the ball is in the opponent's feet

 

We will also find RPM (Rosicky) coming and going everywhere, but with the function of creator and passer. Ws (Poborsky) on the right keeps the width and provides crosses or through balls from the flank, TFs (Koller) acts as a support point with his physicals and P (Baros) is the thorn in the side who always keeps the CBs on alert in the final third. Being dated 2004, it can be seen that this tactic does not rely heavily on Positional Play as we know it today, and in fact even in game rotation patterns are not so present, but rather there is a less delineated attack structure, where the skills of the individual player against the opponent are more inportant

 

During the possession phase, the CBs and the DMd stay back to keep guard (I chose DMd instead of an A because it has to cover a greater portion of ground ahead of the CBs), with RFBs still cautious to give support and cover to the Ws in front of him, without getting too involved in the opposing half. Out of possession, however, we find our beloved flat 442 shape.

 

Currently I use this tactic either as a last-ditch attempt to score a goal, or when I am largely the favorite and want to try to make fast work of the opponent. Personally, however, I find it a very versatile system adaptable to various situations, given that it requires very few basic TIs to work, to which others can be added situationally from game to game: the passes are slightly direct because the most offensive players are already in the most advanced areas (and perhaps this could already be a superfluous instruction), so we don't need a patient build-up to get everyone in the best positions. Out of possession we operate a medium block kept compact by a higher defensive line, and slightly more intense pressing to be a little more aggressive in our half.

[Fox-7-]

The process 

After seeing the tactics, I would like to show you a summary of the path taken (and still to be done) in this save.

So, where did I start? As you have seen, my aim was to set up a team that could consistently play with a 442 and some of its variants with the aim of having a defense that concedes few goals, thanks to which I could obtain results in the long term (if you don't concede, you earn at least 1 point for the standings). Furthermore, in order not to have things too easy, I didn't want to manage in one of the Top 5 leagues, nor in a team that was dominant in a league of lesser reputation (so no Ajax/PSV, Celtic/Rangers, Benfica/Porto/ Sporting, Club Brugge, Salzburg...), but rather a medium/low level team with which to grow over the seasons. Knowing that I was probably choosing a team with little money available, to start my project I looked for a team that had at least a decent number of players who could fit the 442 tactic right from the start. Combining all this requirements, the choice fell on Kilmarnock, in the Scottish Premier League. Medium/low level league, predicted to finish in 6th position out of 12 teams. It was like love at first sight, when I saw the initial squad I immediately understood that it was the perfect team for me.

In fact, at the start of the save there is a wide choice between the players needed to make a strong back 4 with tall players (Mayo, Findlay, Wright, Dead, Ndaba), versatile midfielders (Magennis, Watson, McKenzie, Kennedy, Armstrong), and at least one decent TF (Vassell).

So, starting from this base I started working on the tactics I showed you, and as the seasons went by, I added players in each transfer window who could continue to make the tactics work but with greater quality, following a fairly rigid recruitment strategy. I say 'fairly rigid' because, especially for the first three seasons, the budget available was really small given that even from transfers I wasn't able to accumulate much money, so I necessarily had to compromise on some characteristics I was looking for in the players to buy.

However, in general I can summarize my recruitment strategy and the priority skills for which I looked in the following points:

-GKs: height >190cm, Aerial Reach, Jumping Reach, Command of Area

-Back 4 and DMs: height around or >190cm, Jumping Reach, Balance, Strength, Bravery, Anticipation (for DMs also Aggression and Workrate)

-DW: height >180cm, Stamina, Workrate, Aggression, Off the Ball

-TF: height around or >195cm, Jumping Reach, Balance, Strength

-For the more creative roles (LB, DLP, IW, AM/AF) I am less rigid on physical skills (the only fixed threshold, more psychological for me than anything else, is the height of at least 180cm) in exchange for a a little more Technique, Vision and Flair.

As you can see, the focus is almost exclusively on mental and physical skills, which I need to keep the team strong especially in defense. With tactical organization there is almost always a way to score a goal even without excellent technique.

Now, this is my team at the end of the summer transfer window of season 6.

In this period of time, I can say that I have shaped the team according to my objectives, as we can see from the following comparison graphs on the other teams in the championship

 

To further fuel my involvement in the save, I didn't want to neglect my attention from the Academy of the club. I therefore tried to do everything possible to maximize the youth facilities, youth staff and youth recruitment when I was allowed, and in this years i signed two Heads of Youth Development that could direct the arrival of newgens with the right characteristics for our team

To date, the results are satisfactory, and I've a fair number of youngsters more or less ready to be permanently in the first team, immediately or over the course of a couple of seasons, spread across various key positions in my tactics:

I was lucky with Davidson, who came in the Youth Intake in the first season and was already included in the 1st team rotations from the following season, until he became a starter with 30+ appearances per season in the last couple of years.

 

Duffy is also a product of the first Youth Intake. Things went differently with him, at the beginning he wasn't even remotely close to be ready to be in the 1st team, so he was made available for the Reserve Team for the first two yearsm Then, as soon as he turned 18, he was sent on loan to Hamilton in the Scottish Championship where he played as a starter and had an incredible development, so much so that he returned at the end of the season and deserved a place as the first backup in the DW position, and now he isn't so far from Missori's level and is ready to become the starter if a good offer for the Italian boy arrives.

 

If loans are successful, Cook and Cunningham could improve and form a good assorted attacking duo, useful for us in a couple of seasons at least as backup players to help in squad rotation

 

I have great expectations for Kerr for the future, for now he plays with the Reserve Team training with the 1st Team but he has already made his debut in a Scottish League Cup match, from the next year at least a couple of seasons on loan will be foreseen for him to play competitive matches, hoping he can return and be our starting GK of the future.

 

For the seasons to come, now that we are a few years into the save and the newgens are starting to populate the world of FM, I would like to go further (and a bit nasty) with my plans: essentially I would like to create an 'unfriendly' team as well as being strong defensively. So I will be looking more and more for players with bad behavioral traits (I currently have just a couple, I haven't had success in transmitting these traits with mentoring) and newgens with 'Unsporting' personality. I want to create a Kilmarnock full of bad boys ready to do anything to succeed, also resorting to the dark arts of football, like a sort of New Crazy Gang or a Simeonesque Atletico Madrid

 

So far I haven't posted results since it's not the main topic of the OP, however even if you do things in a sensitive and coherent way, without wanting to exploit the game with meta-things, FM sooner or later rewards you:

1st season: 4th place, Scottish League Cup runner-up (Lost against Celtic)

 

2nd season: 3rd place, lost in UEL Qualification and UECL Playoffs, Scottish Cup runner-up (Lost against Celtic)

 

3rd season: 2nd place, last 16 stage of UEL (eliminated by Juventus)

 

4th season: 2nd place, UECL semi-final (Eliminated by Tottenham)

 

5th season: Domestic Treble, UEL Quarter Final (Eliminated by RB Leipzig)

Edited July 28 by Fox-7-

[jtibbs20]

do you have the tactic's for download?

 

 

thanks

[Los_Culés]

@Fox-7-So inspiring!  

A quick question, do you also use OI Never Tight Mark, Never Trigger Press on opp. DCs in your Tactic 3 (the most defensive one)? I was thinking that maybe with the low block my team will be too passive but it seems to be working even with the low block. Opp. DCs have a lot of time on the ball but they usually resort to some long passes so unless my DCs screw up we are good. Now if the AI would be really clever they would field some playmakers in DC slots. 

[Fox-7-]

Il 27/07/2024 in 16:43 , jtibbs20 ha scritto:

do you have the tactic's for download?

 

 

thanks

Sorry mate, not at PC and won't be for about two weeks...however in a 1-2 minutes you can just copy the instruction from the screenshots in this thread and setup the tactics in FM

 

Il 27/07/2024 in 17:19 , Los_Culés ha scritto:

@Fox-7-So inspiring!  

A quick question, do you also use OI Never Tight Mark, Never Trigger Press on opp. DCs in your Tactic 3 (the most defensive one)? I was thinking that maybe with the low block my team will be too passive but it seems to be working even with the low block. Opp. DCs have a lot of time on the ball but they usually resort to some long passes so unless my DCs screw up we are good. Now if the AI would be really clever they would field some playmakers in DC slots. 

Yes, I use those OIs even when I play with low block and I have never had any particular problems...Sometimes I even find myself playing against an opponent who uses 3 ATB and an HB (Aberdeen always plays like this when I face them) and I apply however these OIs on those 4 players and GK and, despite practically half of their team being free from my pressing, precisely as you have also noticed they often fail to have an effective build-up play, because the more advanced players are well marked and with the passing lines closed, so after a while they either make a pass with a high % risk of being intercepted or they throw long where I have superiority in aerial duels.

Edited July 28 by Fox-7-

[Mutumba]

I see youve got "roll it out" and "distribute to cbs" on your defensive tactic. If the priority with CBs are height, strength and so on, arent we exposing their weakness (ball at their feet) and set them up for being pressed by the opp?

[Fox-7-]

18 ore fa, Mutumba ha scritto:

I see youve got "roll it out" and "distribute to cbs" on your defensive tactic. If the priority with CBs are height, strength and so on, arent we exposing their weakness (ball at their feet) and set them up for being pressed by the opp?

Your observation is correct @Mutumba, and deserves a thorough answer. At the beginning of the save, in fact, I had given instructions to the GK to throw long towards the TF to exploit the aerial duels again. But then, after a few games I realized that there were many more times that the ball was either thrown far from the TF, due to the poor technique of the GK, or even if the TF won the aerial duel the ball ended up with the opponents, due to the lack of support from closest teammates.

So, even without wanting to play out of defense, I chose the option of playing safely to the CBs, so that they decide whether there is time and space to continue possession and move the ball up the field or whether to go directed forward, with a little more precision than the GK.

Also, keep in mind that those are my standard instructions for most games, however I adjust them as needed. For example, again against Aberdeen who play with a 3-4-1-2 DM, they outnumber me in the centre, so I tell the GK to play the ball more quickly to the FBs, who have tons of space to receive and play. Basically, I always look to see where I have numerical superiority available on the first line, and adjust the settings (or roles if necessary) accordingly.

Furthermore, as we can see from this screen posted in the Tactic #3 post,

the deeper positioning of my double pivot in the DM strata sometimes helps to create numerical superiority. In this example the opponents were playing with a flat 442. Not being followed by their direct opponents on all occasions, they position themselves just outside the box and keep the opposing attackers busy, so our CBs can spread out a bit and receive free from pressure, and we can easily outplay their pressing with a 2vs4 (5 if we count the GK). However, if GK feels unconfortable with this situation, sometimes it happens that he simply overrides the TIs and decides to kick the ball long upfront)

Going defensive doesn't necessarily mean that I have to hoof the ball upfront, precisely because there is a high risk of giving the ball away to the opponents easily and being under constant pressure for most of the match, while I still want to try to play and attack with criterion for how much we are allowed when I have the ball, to increase our chances of scoring

(side note: if you notice, in this defensive version of the tactic I also removed the 'Hit early crosses' TI. It may seem counterintuitive for a counter-attacking game plan, but I found this instruction more harmful than helpful in combination with higher passing ditectness and tempo, resulting in many wasted opportunities with rushed passes even if there was time and space for other choices. While I use it in other tactics, since it helps me to create opportunities against tigh defenses by finding the right moment to strike if the opponents make mistakes).

In doing so, in 5 seasons I think I can count on the fingers of one hand situations where we lost the ball in the early build-up phase in dangerous areas.

Edited July 29 by Fox-7-

[Los_Culés]

I use "distribute to cbs" even in Indian League where average passing attribute for my defenders/DMs is 5 or something. The idea behind it is that I want to "bait" the pressing opposition before releasing direct balls to the wings or long ball to the Target Forward. If the opposition is not pressing then I keep the ball as a defensive tool instead of loosing it unnecessarily. Now playing from the back without having a physical presence upfront vs. strong, pressing opponent is something I would never do. Even Barcelona realized that with Lewa (shame that there is no young Kluivert ).

[Wanderer1877]

just dropping in to say this was a great read. i have been trying to set up a "long ball" 442 for a while but am not doing a great job!

 

think what i've learned though is that it needs to be less of an allardyce and more of a focus on actually countering as opposed to pure defence.

[Wanderer1877]

also i think what i have also realised is that i'm moreso after a moyes at west ham type of defensive tactic after all, so i did try a 433 and got some nice results. hoping that defensively solid tactics as a whole are more viable in fm25 as well

[caco4003]

En 25/6/2024 a las 5:55, Fox-7- dijo:

Tactic #3

Now, here's my favorite tactic of the entire set, even though it's the one I use least frequently. In fact, it is my approach for matches in which I am by far the weakest team, where we need to shut down everything in defense and have maximum performance in attack, a classic defense and counterattack (therefore I use it in the matches against Celtic and Rangers in the Premiership and in most of the matches in European competitions). To get what I want, some of the player roles has to change. The back four is deployed with conservative roles: LFBa switches to a support duty, and having given him the Hold position PI, our RFB doesn't need to invert into the field, becoming a classic FBd to better guard the flank. The double pivot must mainly act as a screen in front of the defense to force their attacks to go towards the flanks: therefore I opt for a DMd and DMs pair. This way we have 6 players aimed at protecting the goal.

With this approach we don't rely on Positional Play, we don't have time to build a sustained attack, so I don't want to waste any with ball circulation and the invert here, overload there & co. stuff. For our direct attacks we "unlock" LM which from WMs becomes IWa, this time with the Stay wider PI to allow him to have more space at the beginning of the possession phase, to be able to receive the ball and directly target the opposing defense by carrying the ball towards the goal. On the right I always rely on my faithful DWs (to which I add Get further forward PI to increase their offensive initiative), while upfront this time we create a real couple, with the usual TFs and the AMa who advances to become an AFa, (PF in the screenshot is probabily a misclick] always ready to run behind the CBs in the large spaces that are presumably granted to us. We therefore play with slightly more direct passes and a slightly higher tempo so as not to get caught up in their probable pressing, and the Counter TI is activated again to hit in transition as quickly as possible. In possession, the result is to have a more structured shape, with a clear 4-2-4 layout right from the initial build-up. Certainly in phases of prolonged possession we can be more predictable, but since over the 90' there is probably less time with the ball than the opponents, I want to have my 4 players always ready to attack with a quick transition when we recover the ball and they are with some players away from their optimal defensive positions.

 

In defense we position ourselves with a Low block, lowering the DL to a Standard height: given that since we are all already in our half and with the pivot in the DM strata we are already well equipped to cover their AM strata, a slightly lower DL than the one I usually use comes in handy to take away space from their forwards in the situation in which we are most vulnerable due to our characteristics, namely Peace and Agility.

 

In case of success the satisfactions obtained with this tactic are the greatest, here are some of my best recent 'Giant Killings' (don't mind the formation with the AM instead of AF, I change the tactic in the Team Talk screen before the kick off since it's currently out of my three available slots, but the UI depict it as if I have never changed it):

Sometimes you need a little luck

 

Sometimes we gain a well deserved win

 

Sometimes it's an unexpected slaughter (Sorry @crusadertsar )

 

Obviously it isn't always puppies and rainbows, when the opponents are strong things could take the wrong path in the blink of and eye, and the entire game plan goes down the drain

Hi, since you are relying more on the counter with this one wouldnt it make sense to add "regroup" and "pass into space"?