Game 17: Denmark vs England live from the Frankfurt Arena. BBC1 5pm

[Bootador]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Bellingham has been smashing it in a box to box role. Thats how he ended up at Real Madrid man!

If we limp out it they will be asking why the whole squad is set up badly. This idea that the world of English fans will be mad because Bellingham is at CM doesnt exist when he made his name there. 

Standard English nonsense of "he's our best player, get him as near the goal as possible!"

[Rafalution]

I used to think Rob was just a southgate shill - now beginning to think he might just be legally blind

[kopsy101]

1 minute ago, Bootador said:

Standard English nonsense of "he's our best player, get him as near the goal as possible!"

In fairness, I think Ancelotti said this recently

[Rafalution]

[Bootador]

2 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

In fairness, I think Ancelotti said this recently

Easy to say that when you have Modric and Kroos though isn't it 

[kopsy101]

1 minute ago, Rafalution said:

Answer is clear, Pickford needs to hold his advanced position

[kopsy101]

Just now, Bootador said:

Easy to say that when you have Modric and Kroos though isn't it 

touché  

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

In fairness, I think Ancelotti said this recently

 

Just now, Bootador said:

Easy to say that when you have Modric and Kroos though isn't it 

If anything, you almost have to play Bellingham at 10 when you have Kroos and Modric. 

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Kroos, Modric, Valverde, Camavinga, Tchouameni and Ceballos tbf. 

And he'll be back to box to box role next season with Mbappe coming in.

Another thing which isn't necessarily Southgate's fault is the passiveness of Saka.
It feels like he's so indecisive and passive. Then you look at last night's game and how Williams/Yamal run right at the defender as soon as they receive the ball.

[kopsy101]

Does Southgate do the player ratings for Skysport?

Conor Gallagher (for Alexander-Arnold) - 7

Brilliant clearance just before the hour ahead of Christian Eriksen and once again shored up England's midfield.

[Weezer]

Saka was very dangerous in the first half against Serbia, it’s when the team becomes indecisive and sinks back into their shells that a player like Saka looks lost.

Edited June 21 by Weezer

[metal_guitarist]

Just now, Weezer said:

Salad was very dangerous in the first half against Serbia, it’s when the team becomes indecisive and sinks back into their shells that a player like Saka looks lost.

Wilted IIRC

[Weezer]

Just now, metal_guitarist said:

Wilted IIRC

Auto correct absolutely hates Saka. Went through Salad, Sala and Sara before it allowed me to write Saka.

[Rob1981]

12 minutes ago, Rafalution said:

I used to think Rob was just a southgate shill - now beginning to think he might just be legally blind

If you're moving Bellingham back to try and get a better performance out of Foden... then you are essentially building the team around someone who's never really performed consistently for England, and you risk compromising someone who has.  Maybe it works, but if you still only get a 7/10 performance out of Foden you may as well bring Eze or Gordon in at LW and leave Bellingham where he's best. 

And if you're moving Bellingham back because you don't think anyone else can replace TAA and give you a solid performance in midfield... why pick Mainoo/Wharton and leave Henderson at home unless you are going to trust Mainoo/Wharton to play?

I have fought for Southgate over and over and over because he exhibited all the behaviours that you associate with winning big tournaments.  The importance of the overall team over accommodating the best individuals, the loyalty to out-of-form players that were experienced playing with one another etc.  But a lot of that seems to have evaporated so far this year. 

[themadsheep2001]

 

5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

If you're moving Bellingham back to try and get a better performance out of Foden... then you are essentially building the team around someone who's never really performed consistently for England, and you risk compromising someone who has.  Maybe it works, but if you still only get a 7/10 performance out of Foden you may as well bring Eze or Gordon in at LW and leave Bellingham where he's best. 

And if you're moving Bellingham back because you don't think anyone else can replace TAA and give you a solid performance in midfield... why pick Mainoo/Wharton and leave Henderson at home unless you are going to trust Mainoo/Wharton to play?

I have fought for Southgate over and over and over because he exhibited all the behaviours that you associate with winning big tournaments.  The importance of the overall team over accommodating the best individuals, the loyalty to out-of-form players that were experienced playing with one another etc.  But a lot of that seems to have evaporated so far this year. 

Its not building a team around anyone. Its about getting balance across the entire side. Our only attacking left back isnt quite fit yet, so you need a proper wide option on the left. There's no balance in midfield because one of them isnt a midfielder. 

TAA to bench

Bellingham to CM

Foden to AM

Gordon to LM. Your starting XI is already more balanced. 

If Foden is having a poor game, sub him off and either Palmer comes on, or Bellingham goes to AM and Wharton/Mainoo come on. The XI still remains balanced

[Bootador]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

If you're moving Bellingham back to try and get a better performance out of Foden... then you are essentially building the team around someone who's never really performed consistently for England, and you risk compromising someone who has.  Maybe it works, but if you still only get a 7/10 performance out of Foden you may as well bring Eze or Gordon in at LW and leave Bellingham where he's best. 

You'll get a better performance out of Bellingham in the 8, that's why we move him back. Getting more out of Foden, or Palmer, or Kane etc. is just an added bonus. I don't agree with the notion that the team is build around the 10.

(anyway I've already said I'd go Wharton / Rice / Bellingham now, without a 10)

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, Bootador said:

You'll get a better performance out of Bellingham in the 8, that's why we move him back.

In the two games so far, Bellingham was MOM against Serbia and virtually anonymous yesterday. You aren’t moving Bellingham back to improve his game, you are moving him back to accommodate another player because you aren’t brave enough to leave one of them out.

If it works with Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10, fine. But it might not. You are all talking like it’s an obvious answer to guarantee success when we have literally never played that combination before.

[Bootador]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

In the two games so far, Bellingham was MOM against Serbia and virtually anonymous yesterday. You aren’t moving Bellingham back to improve his game, you are moving him back to accommodate another player because you aren’t brave enough to leave one of them out.

He was man of the match playing an "all-action" role more suited to an 8 and then was anonymous playing a more reserved role befitting of an actual 10 after comments by Southgate. Thanks for proving my point exactly.

[Smallen]

18 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Saka was very dangerous in the first half against Serbia, it’s when the team becomes indecisive and sinks back into their shells that a player like Saka looks lost.

I think Serbia worked out that there was no threat on our left and doubled up on him second half. Danes knew it from the start too.

[JJ72]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

In the two games so far, Bellingham was MOM against Serbia and virtually anonymous yesterday. You aren’t moving Bellingham back to improve his game, you are moving him back to accommodate another player because you aren’t brave enough to leave one of them out.

If it works with Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10, fine. But it might not. You are all talking like it’s an obvious answer to guarantee success when we have literally never played that combination before.

It seriously has to questioned why not? He's trying things like TAA in midfield despite that being less obvious than this and not tried before. 

He's totally out of his depth.  Made panicky changes and it's all falling apart. Looks like he's lost Kane already and who knows else. 

[Smallen]

1 minute ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I think I agree with Ramble on this one

It might not be the perfect solution but it should fix enough of the issues for us to be going on with . 

I think this is probably it. 

We just… don’t have enough line breaking passers. Rice is seemingly allergic to them, Stones has not been himself at all, Maguire is better than Guehi in that regard, and Trent doesn’t receive the ball in midfield areas well enough to play the passes he’s capable of making.

I don’t think we’ve used Warton enough.

[Rafalution]

5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

 You aren’t moving Bellingham back to improve his game, you are moving him back to accommodate another player because you aren’t brave enough to leave one of them out.

You're moving him back to accommodate another player because that's the best midfield 3 we have. I was for Foden on the left but it's just not working at all. 

[themadsheep2001]

4 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I think this is probably it. 

We just… don’t have enough line breaking passers. Rice is seemingly allergic to them, Stones has not been himself at all, Maguire is better than Guehi in that regard, and Trent doesn’t receive the ball in midfield areas well enough to play the passes he’s capable of making.

I don’t think we’ve used Warton enough.

If anything, this is when you play TAA - at right back 

[Rob1981]

8 minutes ago, Rafalution said:

You're moving him back to accommodate another player because that's the best midfield 3 we have. I was for Foden on the left but it's just not working at all. 

No, we are where we are. I think we have to try it. I just don’t share everyone else’s view that it is without risk and that Foden smashing it from #10 is a foregone conclusion.

If Foden still doesn’t turn up, what then? Probably Foden out, Bellingham back to #10. Mainoo or Gallagher into the CM role for the knockout games. But then you’ve wasted all three group games ****ing about and Mainoo/Gallagher still haven’t had a chance get minutes with the rest of the team.

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

No, we are where we are. I think we have to try it. I just don’t share everyone else’s view that it is without risk and that Foden smashing it from #10 is a foregone conclusion.

If Foden still doesn’t turn up, what then? Probably Foden out, Bellingham back to #10. Mainoo or Gallagher into the CM role for the knockout games. But then you’ve wasted all three group games ****ing about and Mainoo/Gallagher still haven’t had a chance get minutes with the rest of the team.

Almost like he should have done this rather than stick a right back in midfield. Almost like he's had lots of time to build that Bellingham/Rice/Foden combination 

[Smallen]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If anything, this is when you play TAA - at right back 

I was thinking about this but I don’t think we have the correct left back profile to play Trent at right back. You’d probably have to play Gomez there which feels extremely suboptimal.

How the **** we haven’t produced any left-footed CB/LB hybrids in the Ake/Gvardiol mold despite all the right backs we have access to I don’t know.

Should've just brought Dan Burn 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Smallen said:

I was thinking about this but I don’t think we have the correct left back profile to play Trent at right back. You’d probably have to play Gomez there which feels extremely suboptimal.

How the **** we haven’t produced any left-footed CB/LB hybrids in the Ake/Gvardiol mold despite all the right backs we have access to I don’t know.

Should've just brought Dan Burn 

We left Branthwaite behind for Dunk too

[Haguey]

Walker is the absolutely perfect foil if Bellingham plays back in midfield, can link play going forwards and is good and fast enough to cover any of Bellingham's defensive deficiencies (which I don't think are that bad anyway, but it means he can focus on going forwards more)

[themadsheep2001]

We might be in an awkward spot. But its one that was avoidable and entirely in the managers making

[kopsy101]

6 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Walker is the absolutely perfect foil if Bellingham plays back in midfield, can link play going forwards and is good and fast enough to cover any of Bellingham's defensive deficiencies (which I don't think are that bad anyway, but it means he can focus on going forwards more)

Does he have defensive deficiencies?

Edited June 21 by kopsy101

[Haguey]

Just now, kopsy101 said:

Does he have defensive deficiencies?

Not really, that's what I mean, he's less solid than an actual defensive minded player in there but having Walker in there means he has to think about defending less anyway

[TalkSport]

6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Almost like he should have done this rather than stick a right back in midfield. Almost like he's had lots of time to build that Bellingham/Rice/Foden combination 

Two International Friendlies, where all three were bang in form, key players for their sides, let’s try them?

Nah.

Brazil - Rice / Bellingham / Gallagher

Belgium - Rice / Bellingham / Mainoo

I assume TAA would’ve played over Mainoo if he wasn’t injured, but Southgate had the chance and decided against it. 

Due to domestic games, it meant he’s not been able to try a set up in the last two friendlies, which has then seen TAA come in. Experiment over, I can’t see him experimenting again, so I’d expect it to be Gallagher or Mainoo in, likely Gallagher.

[Haguey]

That would probably be a big improvement tbf

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Almost like he's had lots of time to build that Bellingham/Rice/Foden combination 

The warmup games immediately before the tournament... Bellingham wasn't available.  The friendly games in March... we tried Mainoo at CM because people were clamouring for that as well.  The squad meetup in November.. Bellingham was injured.  And much before that... it wasn't obvious that Foden would smash it at club level to the extent that he became undroppable, or that Rashford/Grealish would fall away.  This time last year we were still playing Rashford off the left with Foden on the bench.

You can only do so much when the international calendar has been so squeezed. 

Pre-tournament we've played six games in eight months and Bellingham was only available for two of them.

Same for all international managers though, the demands on players are ridiculous.

[The_jagster]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Sorry but there are easy answers. And they are in the squad. Its not at all either/or like you say. 

Rice is either the 6, in which case its Bellingham or Mainoo. Or he is the 8, and its Wharton. The answer isnt Trent at CM, and its probably not Gallagher. No one is going to be screaming for either in midfield if we had played Bellingham/Wharton/Mainoo next to Rice if we had got a safe 1-0. They would ask why we didnt press the advantage which is an entirely different issue. But lets not at all pretend this is some terrible conundrum for Southgate. The selection is probably the easiest because hes got multiple good ones and insists on playing the poorer ones

Play Bellingham at 8 and scrape a 1-0, or play a bit better and still draw 1-1, and it's "why aren't we putting the best player Bellingham further up the pitch where he's great for Real Madrid!!!"

[Lermon]

is the England post-mortem still going on?

I just think they should drop Gerrard and play Gareth Barry instead.

[eenie]

48 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I think we all know what Gareth is going to settle on anyway

Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. 

Two number 9s?

[Vynal Seven]

6 minutes ago, eenie said:

Two number 9s?

Why can’t Trent play up front?

[craigcwwe]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

We left Branthwaite behind for Dunk too

Another bad squad selection there from Southgate for this tournament. 

[eenie]

33 minutes ago, Vynal Seven said:

Why can’t Trent play up front?

Name me a better position from which to play 60 yard passes!

[The Golden boy]

1 hour ago, Lermon said:

is the England post-mortem still going on?

 

[PaulHartman71]

He’s not the fashionable option and I know most don’t agree but I still think Ward-Prowse should have gone and I think him and Rice in midfield is a better partnership than any other we could put together in the tournament. 

He’s got the same work rate as Gallagher but less of a headless chicken red card risk, he’s actually a midfielder but has the same excellent passing range as Trent and he’s more experienced than Mainoo and Wharton who Southgate seems afraid to throw into the deep end. 

He’s not the sexiest name but you stick him in that midfield and he can do the boring stuff that gets the rest of the team playing better IMO. 

[The_jagster]

He has nowhere near the same physicality as Gallagher and would do nothing in a game like yesterday's

[VP.]

I don't rate JWP that highly either, obviously amazing at deadballs but we don't get close enough to the oppositions goal for them to be of any use currently.

[TalkSport]

Did think Curtis Jones would’ve been the ideal CM for Southgate. But guess not. 

[eenie]

18 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I think you need to go and touch grass or whatever it was eenie. 

In central midfield?

[kopsy101]

2 hours ago, Haguey said:

Not really, that's what I mean, he's less solid than an actual defensive minded player in there but having Walker in there means he has to think about defending less anyway

I get what you mean, although I guess he could be solid but that would be a waste.

I have faith that Southgate will look at yesterdays game and make some big changes. Mainoo in for Trent, Gordon for Foden are my guesses, I think that there'll be more balance because of the left now having some threat. 

I also imagine that he'll actually get his players to proactively press and boost their confidence a bit, which looks shot. Which is obviously the most important thing. 

[Darius1998]

6 minutes ago, TalkSport said:

Did think Curtis Jones would’ve been the ideal CM for Southgate. But guess not. 

I think if he hadn't got injured during his best run of form he would have gone. He missed out on the March games and didn't look fully up to speed once he did return for the club.

[kopsy101]

5 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

He's probably the most press resistant of all our midfield options and that alone means he should have been in with a shout. Don't see why you'd bring Wharton AND Mainoo when there's no chance you play them both together. 

Wouldn't you say Mainoo is press resistant?

[kopsy101]

4 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I think he will end up being very press resistant and he already is decently so. But he's inexperienced, only just 19 and still not physically developed (relatively, obviously). He's also not exactly been playing much this season where he's had the chance to pick the ball up from the back and play out, his game has been much more about getting up and down the pitch because of how chaotic United are. I've seen him play those penetrating balls through the lines a bit this season so he has it in his locker, but he's not consistent in doing it (again, probably due to lack of opportunity playing for United) and he doesn't work quite hard enough to get on the ball when a teammate has it for my liking. 

All this won't be a problem in a couple of years, and he's a much better ball carrier than, Wharton which will ultimately be what seems him earn the spot over him long term. But right now Wharton is positionally more developed and willing to play passes out from the back, which is what we're lacking badly.   

Bare in mind I've only seen him play a few times and the quality in performances seemed to wildly vary - Unfortunately against Liverpool he was class  So comfortable in possession, it's really sad that he's at United. 

But that's fair, I'm asking because you mention Jones being press resistant but I don't see him that way as much as others, however I did view Mainoo as being in that bracket.