Game 17: Denmark vs England live from the Frankfurt Arena. BBC1 5pm

[sjg11]

I mean in essence here are your options if you’re Southgate now:

1. The Trent experiment failed. You need a new Rice partner.

2. You could gamble on Shaw’s fitness. This would allow you to keep Foden on the left and Bellingham as the advanced midfielder with Shaw contributing to build-up and to attacking play. Risk is if Shaw gets injured again or isn’t up to after a 4 month absence. 

3. If you don’t gamble on Shaw you basically have to play Gordon on the left to provide with and invert Trippier so he contributes more to build-up play. This likely needs to be combined with Saka drifting inside and Walker pushing forward or being replaced by Trent. 
 

4. Your other options then are to drop Foden, drop Bellingham for Foden, drop Kane for Foden or move Bellingham alongside Rice with Foden as a 10. 
 

Why on earth we didn’t bring Chilwell or any other left-sided LB I will never know… 

[The Golden boy]

2 minutes ago, Gooner Guy said:

I mean in essence here are your options if you’re Southgate now:

1. The Trent experiment failed. You need a new Rice partner.

2. You could gamble on Shaw’s fitness. This would allow you to keep Foden on the left and Bellingham as the advanced midfielder with Shaw contributing to build-up and to attacking play. Risk is if Shaw gets injured again or isn’t up to after a 4 month absence. 

3. If you don’t gamble on Shaw you basically have to play Gordon on the left to provide with and invert Trippier so he contributes more to build-up play. This likely needs to be combined with Saka drifting inside and Walker pushing forward or being replaced by Trent. 
 

4. Your other options then are to drop Foden, drop Bellingham for Foden, drop Kane for Foden or move Bellingham alongside Rice with Foden as a 10. 
 

Why on earth we didn’t bring Chilwell or any other left-sided LB I will never know… 

In Chilwell's case his injury problems are as bad as Shaw's. 

[kopsy101]

2 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I might be totally wrong but my impression of Jones was always that he was very hard to disposess, a decent dribbler through the middle and didn't make many sloppy passes. Might be totally wrong on that though. 

For the most part, yeah that's kind of a good summary, but when he gets the ball facing his own goal and being pressed hard, I get nervous.

[Craigus89]

20 minutes ago, The Golden boy said:

In Chilwell's case his injury problems are as bad as Shaw's. 

He's pretty much fully fit at the moment though. Anything would be better than having one LB who is injured in the squad. Insanity.

[kopsy101]

9 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

He's pretty much fully fit at the moment though. Anything would be better than having one LB who is injured in the squad. Insanity.

Surely not, why wasn't he picked?! I thought Chilwell was decent?!

[kopsy101]

1 hour ago, eenie said:

Name me a better position from which to play 60 yard passes!

I've just had a brainwave, keepers always play those passes. He should be playing inverted keeper. 

[EnterUsernameHere]

38 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

For the most part, yeah that's kind of a good summary, but when he gets the ball facing his own goal and being pressed hard, I get nervous.

Never had that feeling myself. 

He can be frustrating in being too safe at times, Klopp basically turned him into the next Gini (for better or worse) but he's very good at keeping the ball.

[kopsy101]

2 minutes ago, EnterUsernameHere said:

Never had that feeling myself. 

He can be frustrating in being too safe at times, Klopp basically turned him into the next Gini (for better or worse) but he's very good at keeping the ball.

He is, it's just in that one scenario that I get nervous. Can be quite important though, which is why I don't have him down as press resistant. Good player though, wish he was more confident playing key passes. 

[EnterUsernameHere]

4 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

He is, it's just in that one scenario that I get nervous. Can be quite important though, which is why I don't have him down as press resistant. Good player though, wish he was more confident playing key passes. 

Yeah that's kinda what I mean with the "for worse" part, he's a lot safer than when he first broke through.

[Barry Cartman]

Whilst I don't think this is all on Rice as the tweet suggests, I think the clips do show serious problems with both Rice and positions taken up by others. There are some right shockers in there from Rice, the ones where Stones is literally pointing where the passes are on and the one where he just does a 180 and passes backwards are awful, but they are also occasions within those clips where Bellingham is nowhere to be seen in the pocket and there is nowhere to get the ball forward 

[Rob1981]

Players have got to take some responsibility. There are legitimate questions about Southgate, clearly. Moreso than at previous tournaments on the evidence of the first two games. But he hasn’t sent them all out there and told them to misplace all their basic passes.

Guehi is probably the only player to emerge from the games with any credit so far.

[VP.]

Moved to England thread.

Edited June 21 by VP.

[Weezer]

I think it's mostly a mentality problem that English players have had for as long as I remember playing the game. I don't know why it still persists given the individual quality we have now and the fact that a variety of different and quality coaching methods are now prevalent in the English club game but our players are just not good at receiving the ball under pressure. They don't like to be given the ball under pressure and they don't like to pass to teammates that are under pressure or in tight spaces. It's also why we're so bad at playing out from the back.

I don't like to agree with Gary Neville but it's a pretty obvious difference when you look at how comfortable English defenders and midfielders are on the ball compared to those of even lesser nations.

Edited June 21 by Weezer

[Ackter]

Either play Kane in midfield or just drop him tbh.

[Weezer]

Maybe Pickford's taken it upon himself to keep kicking the ball long?

[Vynal Seven]

42 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

But he hasn’t sent them all out there and told them to misplace all their basic passes.

Of course he hasn’t, but when you stifle players natural skill sets, play players out of position and most importantly send teams out with a complete lack of intensity and tempo then it breeds sloppy, lethargic performances, and when you get into that sort of rhythm in a match it’s next to impossible to turn it around, the levels only get worse.  

If a team is generally playing well but a few players are making sloppy errors or playing poorly you can point fingers at the players. When the entire team looks utterly clueless and playing without any sort of tempo or intensity at all then that’s on the manager. 

[Rob1981]

You can’t put it all on the manager, unless you are also prepared to give the manager all the credit when it goes well.

Of course there is some responsibility on the players. What do you think Cole Palmer was thinking last night? He would have been thinking: “Get me on and I would impact the game more than Foden, who has been anonymous”. Not: “Leave me sat here boss, because you haven’t set the right tempo so we can’t possibly win”.

This is England though. So If we play badly, the manager didn’t set the team up properly and doesn’t know his best side. If we play well, it’s because the players are amazing and any fool could win with them.

Don’t get me wrong. There is a LOT of work to do, and some changes clearly needed. But players also need to step up when they get the opportunity, especially when we have the likes of Palmer and Mainoo and Eze and Watkins itching to come on after brilliant club seasons.

[Rob1981]

People are also talking like Denmark gave us an absolute pasting   Watch the BBC highlights again and it is five Denmark chances versus four England chances.

Few team changes on Tuesday and it could all look different.

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

There is a LOT of work to do

Why is there a lot of work to do? What's he been doing all this time?
Core players are all the same and newer starters like Bellingham and Guehi have been doing well.

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

People are also talking like Denmark gave us an absolute pasting   Watch the BBC highlights again and it is five Denmark chances versus four England chances.

Few team changes on Tuesday and it could all look different.

We're talking about a team that was lucky to come out with a draw against Slovenia.

[Lucas]

54 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

 

Maybe Pickford is also one that needs changing based off those clips. Wasn't something I noticed (that there were other options at the time), but I was frustrated at him kicking it long each time and us not getting any joy out of it. Clearly more players expecting it short rather than long and fighting for the second ball.

[themadsheep2001]

There shouldn't be a lot do FFS. Thats the whole issue with Southgate 

[Rob1981]

17 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

We're talking about a team that was lucky to come out with a draw against Slovenia.

Yes, famously you can’t possibly be any good unless you rack up a massive win in all seven tournament games.

Like the Argentina side that lost to Saudi Arabia and needed two penalty shootouts to win the World Cup. Or the 2020 Italy side that only won one knockout game in 90 minutes and needed extra time to squeeze past a country that hadn’t been through a group stage in 40 years. Or the 2016 Portugal side that drew six of their seven games.

17 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Why is there a lot of work to do? What's he been doing all this time?

Same as I said earlier. We have only had a handful of games when all the players have actually been available. And until Foden reached POTS levels and Rashford’s form tailed off, you wouldn’t necessarily be worrying about how to accommodate Bellingham and Foden in the same XI. 

You want international teams to look more prepared, ask the clubs to put some more friendly dates back in  

To some extent, the first two rounds of group games feel like glorified warmups now that 16 of 24 teams go through. Which I guess is fine as long as you change something up when it isn’t working. Which we will clearly do. As long as you don’t lose twice it is almost impossible to go into the final group game and not still have it in your own hands.

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

Like the Argentina side that lost to Saudi Arabia and needed two penalty shootouts to win the World Cup,

Scaloni made six changes for the next game after Saudi loss.

How many will Southgate make for Slovenia?

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or the 2020 Italy side that only won one knockout game in 90 minutes and needed extra time to squeeze past a country that hadn’t been through a group stage in 40 years.

Italy beat Belgium, Spain and won the final in front of 90k home fans after going down early.
Also lost one of their best players mid-tournament.

England played Ukraine in QF and needed a non-existant penalty to beat Denmark at Wembley.

Quote

Same as I said earlier. We have only had a handful of games when all the players have actually been available. And until Foden reached POTS levels and Rashford’s form tailed off, you wouldn’t necessarily be worrying about how to accommodate Bellingham and Foden in the same XI. 

I just can't. I'm done. You're delusional and hopeless when it comes to Southgate.

[Rob1981]

Delusional ffs  

Almost everything he could have got wrong so far this summer he seems to have got wrong. It’s been a dreadful start. We need to change things up. If we go out in the R16 it will be a calamitous end to an otherwise decent spell in charge. But people are talking like we’ve been knocked out ffs. We do still have the top spot in our own hands if we beat Slovenia.

And the idea that we have had loads and loads of games to perfect the Bellingham 8, Foden 10, AN Other left winger system just isn’t reality. Either one of them has been unavailable for most of the friendlies, or you are going back so far that you are at a point where it wasn’t obvious that Foden would become undroppable because of his club form.

Again: only six games in the last eight months and Bellingham was unavailable for four of them. When do we perfect our game plan exactly, when the clubs have squeezed three international meetups out of the calendar altogether.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

Delusional ffs  

Almost everything he could have got wrong so far this summer he seems to have got wrong. It’s been a dreadful start. We need to change things up. If we go out in the R16 it will be a calamitous end to an otherwise decent spell in charge. But people are talking like we’ve been knocked out ffs. We do still have the top spot in our own hands if we beat Slovenia.

And the idea that we have had loads and loads of games to perfect the Bellingham 8, Foden 10, AN Other left winger system just isn’t reality. Either one of them has been unavailable for most of the friendlies, or you are going back so far that you are at a point where it wasn’t obvious that Foden would become undroppable because of his club form.

Again: only six games in the last eight months and Bellingham was unavailable for four of them. When do we perfect our game plan exactly, when the clubs have squeezed three international meetups out of the calendar altogether.

How come it was working fine at the World Cup when Southgate's team played maybe their best game against France?

Bellingham should not play in #10 role, it's that simple.

You've got a team full of players playing for top class teams and it's a dreadful start. Always with some excuses.

[Rob1981]

10 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Italy beat Belgium, Spain and won the final in front of 90k home fans after going down early.
Also lost one of their best players mid-tournament.

England played Ukraine in QF and needed a non-existant penalty to beat Denmark at Wembley.

And why are you talking about England here?   You’re writing off Denmark because they didn’t cruise past Slovenia. I’m saying that lots of previous finalists stumbled through tournament games without looking very good, and were still bloody good sides.

What England did or didn’t have to do to reach the 2020 final when compared to Italy… not sure how that’s relevant.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

And why are you talking about England here?  

Because you're being outplayed by Hojbjerg-Hjumlund-Eriksen midfield. Not just outplayed, but overrun. By Eriksen. Helloooooooooooooooo?????????

Quote

I’m saying that lots of previous finalists stumbled through tournament games without looking very good, and were still bloody good sides.

I wrote about that already. You can stumble if you've got a great defensive setup that doesn't concede many chances.

You're most definitely not stumbling with no midfield cover, makeshift defense and Pickford in goal.

Quote

What England did or didn’t have to do to reach the 2020 final when compared to Italy… not sure how that’s relevant.

It's relevant because you've got double standards for everything Southgate-related.

[Rob1981]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

How come it was working fine at the World Cup when Southgate's team played maybe their best game against France?

“Maybe their best game”

I thought it was a massive bottling because we were too scared to attack teams. Don’t make me rake through all your nonsense posts from 2022, please.

I don’t know why it worked fine. Maybe because we had Henderson instead of TAA and an actual left footer playing at left back.

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[Rob1981]

Mate, honestly. Even when I concede we look like ****, we still end up arguing  

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

“Maybe their best game”

I thought it was a massive bottling because we were too scared to attack teams. Don’t make me rake through all your nonsense posts from 2022, please.

Alright, you've got me.

Least bad game.

Quote

I don’t know why it worked fine. Maybe because we had Henderson instead of TAA and an actual left footer playing at left back.

Then take a bloody left-footed left-back instead of relying on perma-injured Chiwell and Shaw. And play an actual midfielder instead of TAA.

I guess it's the players' fault they get injured and are played out of position.

[kopsy101]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I wrote about that already. You can stumble if you've got a great defensive setup that doesn't concede many chances.

In fairness, how many chances have England actually conceded? Like, proper chances.

[m_fenton]

1 minute ago, kopsy101 said:

In fairness, how many chances have England actually conceded? Like, proper chances.

But how many does it feel like we've conceded? 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, kopsy101 said:

In fairness, how many chances have England actually conceded? Like, proper chances.

Too many considering the opposition. The end of Serbia game was full panic mode, as were some sequences in second half against Denmark.

[Rob1981]

4 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Then take a bloody left-footed left-back instead of relying on perma-injured Chiwell and Shaw. And play an actual midfielder instead of TAA

We should obviously be doing this  

But that still doesn’t mean we have wasted loads of games when we could have been bedding in the front six that we probably need to use now.  Either they’ve not been available together, or the spare games have been taken out of the schedule, or it hasn’t been obvious that other players wouldn’t also be strong contenders for those spots.

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

We should obviously be doing this

And who's fault is that it wasn't done?

You can't say you're lacking a left-back if the man in charge doesn't take one to the tournament. It's not like he took someone who got injured during the first game.

Quote

But that still doesn’t mean we have wasted loads of games when we could have been bedding in the front six that we probably need to use now.  Either they’ve not been available together, or the spare games have been taken out of the schedule, or it hasn’t been obvious that other players wouldn’t also be strong contenders for those spots.

You had an easy qualifying group, Nations League you managed to get relegated from an some friendlies.

[kopsy101]

7 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Too many considering the opposition. The end of Serbia game was full panic mode, as were some sequences in second half against Denmark.

Can you find me an actual chance conceded? Not some outside of the box effort or a dangerous cross, but an actual chance.

[Rob1981]

6 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

And who's fault is that it wasn't done?

You can't say you're lacking a left-back if the man in charge doesn't take one to the tournament. It's not like he took someone who got injured during the first game.

Where have I said otherwise?  

It is clearly Southgate’s fault that we have gone in without a fit left footer. And also wasted two games using TAA in a role that he clearly can’t play against a better opponent.

But again, that doesn’t mean we have had loads and loads of previous opportunities to play Bellingham and Foden together and perfect our foolproof tactical system. There simply haven’t been enough games where they were both available, and when both have been playing so well that they weren’t being pushed hard for a starting place by someone else.

Not sure how else to say it  

Edited June 21 by Rob1981

[kopsy101]

For what it's worth, I can think of 1 - Christensen from the corner. But that's it. For 2 games, that's good!

[darren1983]

54 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

I just can't. I'm done.

If only  

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

Maybe Pickford's taken it upon himself to keep kicking the ball long?

More to the point, we were a damned sight better against Serbia where he kicked long and they gave it back to us than against Denmark where we tried to play out the back and either ended up with the ball with centre backs being pressed out wide or the Declan Rice lookalike managing to lose possession under no real pressure at all

So regardless of whose decision it was he may not have been having a mad one!

[Barnzy]

I know France didn’t play well tonight but they were miles ahead of England, loads going wrong for me - main thing was they looked scared, they didnt try the things they were capable of which resulted in this slow inexpensive play which was awful to watch, France at least tried stuff and their players moved, ours didn’t.
 

Individually,  I thought Bellingham was a disgrace - played mostly alongside Kane and showed no urgency in anything he did almost seemed like a frustrated petulant child at times - because he’s our great hope this time around he doesn’t get called out on it. 
 

Kane, needs to stay upfront and be a target man - hold the ball up and get Foden and Saka running off him, the whole front 4 looked like they had just met that day.  The team has while needs to get comfortable with given Foden the ball in the tight places he wants - he needs to play centrally obviously and we need to keep width with Saka and one other. 
 

Rice, feel like he’s been told to just keep the ball at all costs - to many side ways and backwards passes. Trent, this hasn’t worked but the answer isn’t Gallagher who is a red card waiting to happen.  Try out a single Pivot against Slovenia allowing Bellingham to get forward from deeper. 
 

 

Edited June 22 by Barnzy