how to difference roles?

[vvincc]

Hello this is my first post, Im new at the game and I dont understand the difference between a fullback and a wingback, or other roles in the game, I find the explanations a little bit missleading and dont know how to start.

For example, a advanced playmaker on the AMC spot, has the hardcoded instruction of "take more risk" and "shoot less often" but if I play an atacking midfielder on the same spot and press the exactly same PI whats the difference between one and the other, there is some way to know?

Also if I look for attributes when I look for inverted winger it remarks on green the passing but they have no hardcode "take more risk", as well it remarks the crosses but is not a role that cuts inside?

Appreciate some guide or reference on how to understand how the game or the ME work to create a tactic, I have tried with the preset ones but I want to understand what is happening to create my own tactics.

Thanks.

[Cloud9]

19 minutes ago, vvincc said:

Hello this is my first post, Im new at the game and I dont understand the difference between a fullback and a wingback, or other roles in the game, I find the explanations a little bit missleading and dont know how to start.

For example, a advanced playmaker on the AMC spot, has the hardcoded instruction of "take more risk" and "shoot less often" but if I play an atacking midfielder on the same spot and press the exactly same PI whats the difference between one and the other, there is some way to know?

Also if I look for attributes when I look for inverted winger it remarks on green the passing but they have no hardcode "take more risk", as well it remarks the crosses but is not a role that cuts inside?

Appreciate some guide or reference on how to understand how the game or the ME work to create a tactic, I have tried with the preset ones but I want to understand what is happening to create my own tactics.

Thanks.

Welcome to the tactics forums  Here's a link to the manual where you can read about how roles perform:

Roles have hard coding under the hood, so even if the PIs are the same in the interface...they will perform differently. The TIs (and particularly of note mentality) will impact how the role performs as well. 

To answer a few of your above questions:

• Fullbacks will sit more narrowly to wingbacks.
  • Make sure you have some width in your tactic either through 1. roles 2. TI width. You can ask your FB to run wide with the ball in his PIs if you want a defensively responsible option to the WB and want him to provide width as well. 
• Playmaking roles naturally attract the ball more than other roles. Different playmaking roles will also operate differently: For example a DLP will primarily recycle possession whereas an AP will look to pick the lock on opposition defenses. 
• The highlighted attributes are only the games suggestions for what the role needs to perform, they will utilize all attributes to perform the role you've selected. 

Edited July 3 by Cloud9

[vvincc]

hace 14 horas, Cloud9 dijo:

Welcome to the tactics forums  Here's a link to the manual where you can read about how roles perform:

Roles have hard coding under the hood, so even if the PIs are the same in the interface...they will perform differently. The TIs (and particularly of note mentality) will impact how the role performs as well. 

To answer a few of your above questions:

• Fullbacks will sit more narrowly to wingbacks.
  • Make sure you have some width in your tactic either through 1. roles 2. TI width. You can ask your FB to run wide with the ball in his PIs if you want a defensively responsible option to the WB and want him to provide width as well. 
• Playmaking roles naturally attract the ball more than other roles. Different playmaking roles will also operate differently: For example a DLP will primarily recycle possession whereas an AP will look to pick the lock on opposition defenses. 
• The highlighted attributes are only the games suggestions for what the role needs to perform, they will utilize all attributes to perform the role you've selected. 

Thank you for the references, I have been seeing that you replied almost all the post, you are an expierenced player, can I ask you another question, what is your process to analyze a squad and make a tactic from scratch? Do you play what you want or what you can? There are certain roles that encourages specific styles? How is good to pull it off for example a tactic where your AMC is your best player? Thank you and hope Im not being annoying for asking all this questions.

[Hoofenballen]

15 hours ago, vvincc said:

Hello this is my first post, Im new at the game and I dont understand the difference between a fullback and a wingback, or other roles in the game, I find the explanations a little bit missleading and dont know how to start.

For example, a advanced playmaker on the AMC spot, has the hardcoded instruction of "take more risk" and "shoot less often" but if I play an atacking midfielder on the same spot and press the exactly same PI whats the difference between one and the other, there is some way to know?

Also if I look for attributes when I look for inverted winger it remarks on green the passing but they have no hardcode "take more risk", as well it remarks the crosses but is not a role that cuts inside?

Appreciate some guide or reference on how to understand how the game or the ME work to create a tactic, I have tried with the preset ones but I want to understand what is happening to create my own tactics.

Thanks.

Id say just basically watch the games and make little changes as you see fit.

Id say one difference youve highlighted is "playmakers" become your main source of creativity, your players will often look to play balls into your playmakers to make something happen, whereas central midfielders or attacking midfielders are more of a cog in an overall wheel.

A wingback is naturally more attacking than a full back. A Wing back would usually be a wide defender with no one ahead of him, or a wide player that comes inside and the wingback runs past him (overlap).

Just because a player doesnt have take more risks ticked, he will still take risks....he may have a trait to play risky passes or your team instructions may encourage him to play risky passes so just "take more risk" alone wont change things totally.

The game is ambiguous so just watch the game and add an instruction or two after watching the games, and soon youll have a tactic youre happy with

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, vvincc said:

what is your process to analyze a squad and make a tactic from scratch? Do you play what you want or what you can?

You can do either in game, we see both approaches from top tier coaches IRL as well. I tend to play what I want in tactically driven short term saves and what I can in longer term saves w/more self imposed restrictions on recruitment...but this is entirely dependent on how you'd like to approach the game. Figuring out your own parameters to play in is key to a rewarding save

I would recommend looking at how you will score goals when first taking over a side. All good tactics need to be able to put pressure back onto opposition (even defensive ones). The player profile of my main goalscorer(s) tend to dictate if I'm going to play a striker pairing or not, how high on the pitch the team will play, and if we're going to play transition football or a progressive style. 

• For the profile of a primary goalscorer I mostly look at the Off the Ball attribute + physical profile on the player. 

13 hours ago, vvincc said:

There are certain roles that encourages specific styles?

This is a tricky question to answer, I would say there are specific player profiles that encourage certain play styles...for example if you have an exceptionally quick frontline a lower block + transition football would provide them space to run into (See Mbappe and friends with France). You would then choose roles to help take advantage of those profiles (such as an AF or Winger(a)). 

However, some roles like an IWB typically suit specific approaches, in this case a more progressive style on the ball (rather than a direct one). 

I would primarily look for strong role pairings when putting together your tactic. These can be player profiles/roles who create a "complete" player together (BWM + DLP in a pivot, big man little man in a striker partnership etc.) or roles whose movement offer synergy (such as a MEZ + Winger or F9 + SS). Role partnerships are particularly important this year w/the new changes to the match engine which can see more dynamic player movement in possession.

13 hours ago, vvincc said:

How is good to pull it off for example a tactic where your AMC is your best player?

I would recommend a 4-2-3-1, it's a very forgiving/user friendly formation this year and will give the platform for your AMC strata player to shine. 

What is his profile? That will dictate how to get the best out of him. SS (+facilitating forward) or AP(+spearheading forward) are two strong options for serious goal threat or primary creative force in a tactic. Unless the AMC is an exceptional goalscoring profile...I think you will find a Spearheading forward (AF, P, CF, PF on attack) a lot easier to get started with!

Edited July 4 by Cloud9

[silentventus]

14 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You can do either in game, we see both approaches from top tier coaches IRL as well. I tend to play what I want in tactically driven short term saves and what I can in longer term saves w/more self imposed restrictions on recruitment...but this is entirely dependent on how you'd like to approach the game. Figuring out your own parameters to play in is key to a rewarding save

I would recommend looking at how you will score goals when first taking over a side. All good tactics need to be able to put pressure back onto opposition (even defensive ones). The player profile of my main goalscorer(s) tend to dictate if I'm going to play a striker pairing or not, how high on the pitch the team will play, and if we're going to play transition football or a progressive style. 

• For the profile of a primary goalscorer I mostly look at the Off the Ball attribute + physical profile on the player. 

This is a tricky question to answer, I would say there are specific player profiles that encourage certain play styles...for example if you have an exceptionally quick frontline a lower block + transition football would provide them space to run into (See Mbappe and friends with France). You would then choose roles to help take advantage of those profiles (such as an AF or Winger(a)). 

However, some roles like an IWB typically suit specific approaches, in this case a more progressive style on the ball (rather than a direct one). 

I would primarily look for strong role pairings when putting together your tactic. These can be player profiles/roles who create a "complete" player together (BWM + DLP in a pivot, big man little man in a striker partnership etc.) or roles whose movement offer synergy (such as a MEZ + Winger or F9 + SS). Role partnerships are particularly important this year w/the new changes to the match engine which can see more dynamic player movement in possession.

I would recommend a 4-2-3-1, it's a very forgiving/user friendly formation this year and will give the platform for your AMC strata player to shine. 

What is his profile? That will dictate how to get the best out of him. SS (+facilitating forward) or AP(+spearheading forward) are two strong options for serious goal threat or primary creative force in a tactic. Unless the AMC is an exceptional goalscoring profile...I think you will find a Spearheading forward (AF, P, CF, PF on attack) a lot easier to get started with!

Sorry to barge in here like this, but I just have a few questions. When talking about the physicals lets you decide which line of engagement you play, so say if you have a slower frontline do you opt for a higher line of engagement? Also when it comes to facilitating forwards what attributes would you look at? Thank you. 

[Cloud9]

On 04/07/2024 at 13:11, silentventus said:

Sorry to barge in here like this, but I just have a few questions. When talking about the physicals lets you decide which line of engagement you play, so say if you have a slower frontline do you opt for a higher line of engagement? Also when it comes to facilitating forwards what attributes would you look at? Thank you. 

Combinations of Acceleration/Pace/Jumping Reach + Off the Ball (Anticipation should be mentioned as well) are all attributes indicating a player capable of making strong goalscoring runs, whether that is attacking the box, fox in the box movement, or running in behind. For example: a striker w/ a burst of acceleration and bit of height can make an exceptional poacher in the box (to play from lower on the pitch he would want more pace as well). 

If one of your players is outside the striker group w/these attributes, a role such a CM(a), IF, or SS can help facilitate these dangerous runs. Playing deeper will make it a little more difficult for these roles to get into position and usually I try to open up space for them between defenders which requires more control over the match. 

A lower block would generally want players who can threaten space that the opposition are leaving in behind...so personally I would opt for a more progressive/less direct style with a unathletic/older frontline. An extremely physical/quick frontline offers the ability to play more direct, but can suit modern progressive approaches as well by simply providing another option to the attack (see Haaland at Dortmund vs Haaland at Man City). If the frontline players are rapid and short...then dropping back to a lower block where their height is less impactful (outside the box, running into space) can be advantageous...I'd still consider a strike partnership in these situations so you'd have a knock down option. In areas in/around the box you will be more limited w/shorter players in terms of what you can do off a cross.

• You will want some sort of pace in your frontline (if not from strikers then wider players), it helps to put pressure back on the opposition defenders and stretch the pitch vertically, This is useful regardless of style of play.

On facilitating forwards...I'd pick one that compliments your primary goalscorer(s) whenever possible. Role pairings are a very strong way to build a tactic. For example if you have a SS you'd like to make your focal point, playing a progressive style with a F9 will help to get the best out of him. Profiles on facilitating forwards are a little bit more nuanced than a spearheading forward but most of them will offer you the option to hold up the ball (which requires strength and balance, the F9 being an exception as he doesn't do this...but you'd want him to be able to dribble/be press resistant instead). 

• PF(s), TF(s) are less demanding as they require very little in the way of technicals or mentals. TF acts a long ball magnet similar to a playmaker role receiving the ball more. 
• DLF(s), CF(s), F9 all require intelligent players who are technically adept. CF's are quite rare and while they can be great in a nuanced approach...I think they frequently end up being a trap for a newer player. 

Of course, attributes like First Touch, Finishing, Composure, and Consistency should all be factored in...but I would prioritize building your tactic around getting your goalscorers into scoring opportunities when starting out. As always on FM the more you play the more you can break the basic ideas of the game.

Edited Monday at 06:54 by Cloud9

[DownTheFrank]

On 03/07/2024 at 16:05, vvincc said:

Thank you for the references, I have been seeing that you replied almost all the post, you are an expierenced player, can I ask you another question, what is your process to analyze a squad and make a tactic from scratch? Do you play what you want or what you can? There are certain roles that encourages specific styles? How is good to pull it off for example a tactic where your AMC is your best player? Thank you and hope Im not being annoying for asking all this questions.

I think i can offer a bit of advice in this regard. 

Firstly, football manager can be looked at as an Information game. In that it gives you enough information to know what to do (provided you take the time to look at and implement that information)

"what is your process to analyze a squad and make a tactic from scratch?"

Analysing a squad as you asked, requires basically looking at what the players are good at. ie their attributes - in comparison to the attributes of players they will face. 

The Season preview and squad comparison pages tell you quite a bit about your team. Season preview tells you where you are expected to finish in the league, and squad comparison shows you the average attributes of the league you are in. 

You can also take into consideration the Board and supporter expectations for style of play ( as these affect whether they think you are doing a good job, alongside results). 

Attacking styles - Lots of attacking players and lots of shots. Quick buildup.  

Possession styles - lots of possession and passes completed. Slow buildup. 

Defensive styles - Players behind the ball and few shots conceded. 

etc etc  

 

"There are certain roles that encourages specific styles?"

YES. 

take all the time you need to get information FROM the game. Hover over roles and read the descriptions. Watch the short demos of roles etc. Through experience you'll come to find out stuff like 

- Which roles support quicker transitions - AF, CM, FB

- Which roles encourage slow buildup, possession - Playmakers, f9s, etc

After a while you will be able to tell which roles suit which styles completely based on experience (as well as which attributes are highlighted for the roles )

 

"How is good to pull it off for example a tactic where your AMC is your best player?"

Is he a scorer ? (open play or set piece ) 

Is he a creator (open play or set piece) 

is he both ? 

 

Build around him to make him the key player for that. ie Give him more responsibility. 

Eg. In a quick transitions attacking team, if i want my AMC to be top scorer i put him as Shadow Striker and add instuctions that go well with his attributes. eg. Getting someone like bruno fernandes to hit 50+ Goals and assists is very easy in such a system. 

Another way (for me at least) is , does he have a ton of attacking flair ? i make him a trequartista and put one or two ball winners around him. 

etc etc etc 

 

Sit with the game, take your time, take in the information, and have fun 

 

[DownTheFrank]

On 04/07/2024 at 20:11, silentventus said:

Sorry to barge in here like this, but I just have a few questions. When talking about the physicals lets you decide which line of engagement you play, so say if you have a slower frontline do you opt for a higher line of engagement? Also when it comes to facilitating forwards what attributes would you look at? Thank you. 

From my experience of facilitating forwards 

f9 - Uses technical and mental attributes to create for others and to score. 

PF - Uses physical attributes to press, hold up and create for others and to score. 

DLF - Uses mentals and physicals to  hold up and create for others and to score. 

TF - Uses physicals to hold up, create for others and to score. 

CF - Big. Strong. Smart. technical. (f9+PF)

Key attributes for all - Teamwork. 

PF uses workrate more. TF uses strength more, DLF uses balance more etc etc . Can't give you everything can i ? lol 

 

(you catch my drift ?) Attacking just means more forward runs, support means less forward runs. 

 

Have fun