Building up through the center

[Cloud9]

I have been trying to form more realistic play styles, which to my eye are frequently centered around giving the ball to the midfield players to dictate play. However, I'm finding most of my play is continuing to progress through wude outlets, despite my best attempts.

PIs are:

• Press more often on the Poacher/RPM (another realistic adjustment on the 9 to lead the press)
• Roam on the AM
• Winger is asked to get forward more
• IW is asked to take more risks
• Left fullback runs wide with ball
• left winger is off footed

I have chosen the double pivot (both playmakers played on their true foot) to attract the ball when building up from the back, specifically with the DLP to recycle possession. I went w/a double CD partnership in my own tactic to help funnel the ball to the pivot, instead of quick direct progressive passes. 

• Most of the play continues to progress through wide areas (see pass map) and not the central pairing (numbers 17 and 8). A particular issue is that the centerbacks are not seeking out the DLP as a primary outlet. 

In terms of numbers: we are achieving plenty of possession at around 65% or so w/around 90% passing success. The team is controlling matches; just not centrally (which is the whole point).

• A couple notes: I have been trying to achieve central play without focus play instructions (they're quite tiring on players in those areas). I am also avoiding IWB/Liberos as while some teams do utilize these roles IRL, there are also plenty that do it with traditional fullbacks/wingbacks. I'm aware the ME has always been a bit heavy in this aspect (progressing down the flanks). 

Specifically, I was attempting to emulate some of Spain's buildup play at the Euros (pass map linked above)...where Rodri and Fabian (the two high value green circles) were at the heart of all their buildup play. The Fabian Ruiz in my tactic (RPM), who was fundamental to Spain's midfield at the euros, is primarily progressing the ball through wide areas well

My left back FB(s) had 122 pass combinations while my DLP sat at 113. I am happy with the overall number of passes (517) for a team playing in his manner, I think Spain hit just slightly over that in the game vs England. However, the proportion of passes received and distributed should be significantly higher on the central two than the wider players in a realistic attempt.

Edited July 18 by Cloud9

[crusadertsar]

I have been doing my own Spain emulation lately with 433. And honestly I find the best way to get central play is through role choices. Like avoiding wingbacks (using simple fullbacks on wings instead) and traditional wingers. And using at least one playmaker in middle (DLP in DM position). And giving width via instructions of course. The tactic is going pretty well so far with us Real Sociedad sitting in 3rd in May. 

Edited July 18 by crusadertsar

[skyzekaizo]

I think there are 2 problems in this tactic:

• You're not creating space for your DMs
• You're not giving a single realistic outlet to progress the ball forward

Try something like this maybe:

And if progression is still not going through the middle, try swapping the duties of your ST and AMC.

[Cloud9]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I have been doing my own Spain emulation lately with 433. And honestly I find the best way to get central play is through role choices. Like avoiding wingbacks (using simple fullbacks on wings instead) and traditional wingers. And using at least one playmaker in middle (DLP in DM position). And giving width via instructions of course. The tactic is going pretty well so far with us Real Sociedad sitting in 3rd in May. 

Thanks  I'll tinker with the fullback roles a little and see how it goes. The winger on the left hand side is off foot which I had hoped would give a more direct option w/out that traditional wing play. 

I was referencing this stat map on the choice of off footed winger for the left sided attacker...another for the right sided attacker cutting inside/creating a bit more often:

I think the core issue I'm trying to work out is via these three pass interactions:

1. DLP not receiving any significant amount of passes from the RPM and left sided centerback.
2. RPM primarily passing to the IW on the right hand side, instead of serving as a central cog. 
   • I'm considering a left footed right sided RPM..which would be quite counter intuitive for IRL stuff...but would hopefully see him drift inside a bit more instead of linking up with his best friend out wide.
3. Left handed centerback almost always picking out the fullback on his side instead of a pivot player (DLP or RPM). 

 

Ideally I would like the green arrows to be centrally based around the two playmakers, maybe a solo playmaker would be less confusing for the back 4...but on the other hand I find the pivot really useful when using Play out from the Back. 

1 hour ago, skyzekaizo said:

And if progression is still not going through the middle, try swapping the duties of your ST and AMC.

I am trying to do a bit of realism w/the approach based on Spains tactical setup so that's a current limitation.

On positive notes...the AMC role is working quite well in build up combinations and the pressing Poacher is one part I've been quite happy with /realistically wise (the 7 on the pass map) in triggering the press. 

• Their general positioning is also quite similar to what it is for the Spanish side via the pass map.

In simple FM terms though, I think this is generally good advice..IE. more ways of progressing more directly. Unfortunately it's just not the aim of what I'm after at the moment  I detail about the choice on CD over BPD for example above (despite having technically proficient players in those spots to play out form the back). Generally I'm not a huge fan of a solo TM, I almost always pair them up with a partner who can offer a turn of pace. A tall poacher is almost always preferable for a solo box presence.

• SV vs RPM was a consideration as well..with SV offering a straight rotation to the AMC strata...however at the moment I'm trying to make the RPM work alongside the DLP as I want them both to be the central cogs of the team (like on the green circles for Rodri and Fabian on the Spain pass map).
• If I can't get the DLP on the ball as much as the role demands (a bit like is happening now) I think I will go either for the SV like you mention or switch to a 4-3-3 with the DLP(s) as the holding 6. 

Couple more stat references to illustrate the creative influence I'd like the two 6's to wield in the system:

Edited July 19 by Cloud9

[skyzekaizo]

45 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Thanks  I'll tinker with the fullback roles a little and see how it goes. The winger on the left hand side is off foot which I had hoped would give a more direct option w/out that traditional wing play. 

I think the core issue I'm trying to work out is via these pass interactions:

 

1. DLP not receiving any significant amount of passes from the RPM and left sided centerback.
2. RPM primarily passing to the IW on the right hand side, instead of serving as a central cog. 
3. Left handed centerback almost always picking out the fullback on his side instead of a pivot player (DLP or RPM). 

Ideally I would like the green arrows to be centrally based around the two playmakers, maybe a solo playmaker would be less confusing for the back 4...but on the other hand I find the pivot really useful when using Play out from the Back. 

I am trying to do a bit of realism w/the approach based on Spains tactical setup so that's a current limitation.

On positive notes...the AMC role is working quite well in build up combinations and the pressing Poacher is one part I've been quite happy with /realistically wise (the 7 on the pass map) in triggering the press. 

• Their general positioning is also quite similar to what it is for the Spanish side via the pass map.

In simple FM terms though, I think this is generally good advice..IE. more ways of progressing more directly. Unfortunately it's just not the aim of what I'm after at the moment  I detail about the choice on CD over BPD for example above (despite having technically proficient players in those spots to play out form the back). Generally I'm not a huge fan of a solo TM, I almost always pair them up with a partner who can offer a turn of pace. 

1. When your DLP is on support, its easy for the opposition to either mark him or to force you outside, this will make him less available than the FB. Having him on defend duty will make him more available for a progressive pass from the CBs and for a recycling pass from the RPM, moreover the difference in duties between the two DMs will allow them each to have more space.

2. Your RPM passes primarily to the IW because he's by far his best option to progress the ball. You play with shorter passing so the poacher is not an option until you reach the final third, the left winger is too far, the AM sits in the middle with literally no space to receive and might  often be marked out, and the DLP might be hard to find because they sit on the same horizontal line. While the IW has more space to receive and because of his support duty he will come short for the pass.

3. Against a team with a high defensive line or a team forcing you outside, your dlp and rpm are not safe options for your CBs, I had the exact same problem playing a 433 with a dlp-s in CM on the right and a fb-s on the left. Most of the time the team progressed through the fb and not the dlp. (I think if you remove POOD you might see more passes from CB to DMs)

Also the attack duties are not to pump balls up front but to create space for your DMs, because if nobody is making the runs, the opposition can easily deny space from your DMs.

Edited July 19 by skyzekaizo

[Cloud9]

Ahh so suddenly we have a hard launch. @crusadertsar I tried a double FB(s) but unfortunately the centerbacks really want to pass them the ball, like all the time. I'm not sure if this will be the same in your 4-3-3? Certainly the next point on the DLP will not be relevant to your approach.

Two changes are double wingback (d) + a right footed DLP to sit a bit more centrally (previously was left footed):

Put up similar possession numbers: 2-1 scoreline 63% possession, 93% pass completion. 

Wingbacks sitting a bit wider seemed to encourage the centerbacks to pass it through the pivot more frequently, which is good. Obviously the wingbacks pass it wider more often than I'd like....so I will continue to experiment with tinkered fullback roles.

Stats on the DLP(s) per 90 minutes:

Some nice progressive passes numbers in there w/the support duty, on top of recycling the ball. This match we had our DLP as the main outlet at 171 passes combinations and RPM at 151 (and the RPM is linking with other central outlets).

We are not fully there yet, but look at those nice central green lines  I will continue to post updates as I progress.

Edited July 19 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

I have tried to force central play, particularly in saves where I want to use an AM and/or a smaller striker. The only way I have made it happen is by not having any wide roles at all, especially not in AML/R. No matter what instructions I gave, play was funnelled through them.

Instead I have used FB or WB on defend as part of a back 4, a DM and 3 CMs with the middle being an aggressive playmaker role, then any sort of classic central striker pairing.

Your pass maps are a thing of beauty here btw!

[felley]

On 19/07/2024 at 04:14, Cloud9 said:

Two changes are double wingback (d) + a right footed DLP to sit a bit more centrally (previously was left footed):

Ah, one of my favourite roles in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 - The WB (D). I love the way the role stays deep and wide meaning you create space in deep areas for the buildup, yet he's still great at getting in the odd cross, specifically to an attacking Winger/IF on the opposite side.

It's not what you're going for, but I've had success playing a WB(D) as an IFB alternative on the same side as a L(S) and a HB, allowing them to change positions while the WB(D) stays wide as an outlet. Obviously much riskier than the IFB but as long as you're not too aggressive with the other side, it can allow the L(S) to drift unmarked into the channel and become a creator/goal threat. My Libero in Japan, Thomas Jok Deng, scored 6-7 screamers by popping up in the right channel with space. 

[Cloud9]

On 25/07/2024 at 03:55, NineCloudNine said:

I have tried to force central play, particularly in saves where I want to use an AM and/or a smaller striker. The only way I have made it happen is by not having any wide roles at all, especially not in AML/R. No matter what instructions I gave, play was funnelled through them.

Instead I have used FB or WB on defend as part of a back 4, a DM and 3 CMs with the middle being an aggressive playmaker role, then any sort of classic central striker pairing.

Your pass maps are a thing of beauty here btw!

I was experimenting with a 3-4-2-1 like you mention in an earlier experiment to play centrally! Similarly a 4-2-3-1 with an IWB, or two, offer a lot of potential for going through the middle.

Glad you like the pass maps  I've substituted the IW for an IF(s) for a bit higher positioning and to avoid link up play with the wingback. The off footed winger I've left on support with aggressive PIs + player profile (I think going attack on this role would see too many turnovers of possession with the hardcoded PIs).

The other experiment was to move the RPM up to the CM strata where he can rotate forward and back with a bit more ease. This creates a staggered 4-3-3 and focuses a lot of the play through the DLP. I think I still favor the traditional double pivot for the ability to play through a high press at the moment. 

On 25/07/2024 at 04:50, felley said:

Ah, one of my favourite roles in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 - The WB (D). I love the way the role stays deep and wide meaning you create space in deep areas for the buildup, yet he's still great at getting in the odd cross, specifically to an attacking Winger/IF on the opposite side.

It's not what you're going for, but I've had success playing a WB(D) as an IFB alternative on the same side as a L(S) and a HB, allowing them to change positions while the WB(D) stays wide as an outlet. Obviously much riskier than the IFB but as long as you're not too aggressive with the other side, it can allow the L(S) to drift unmarked into the channel and become a creator/goal threat. My Libero in Japan, Thomas Jok Deng, scored 6-7 screamers by popping up in the right channel with space. 

Libero's(d/s) are one of my favorite roles on Fm24. Admittedly I haven't experimented with them too much with a HB. Usually I utilize them to create that stable 3-2 formation build up from the back.

WB(d) are a great way of ensuring you're using the physical profiles of the wingbacks in 1v1 defensive situations. In some ways they're similar to the IFB in this manner; you're comfortable with your defenders going 1v1 as the front players bomb on with extra freedom to create. 

Edited July 26 by Cloud9

[skyzekaizo]

On 25/07/2024 at 13:55, NineCloudNine said:

I have tried to force central play, particularly in saves where I want to use an AM and/or a smaller striker. The only way I have made it happen is by not having any wide roles at all, especially not in AML/R. No matter what instructions I gave, play was funnelled through them.

Instead I have used FB or WB on defend as part of a back 4, a DM and 3 CMs with the middle being an aggressive playmaker role, then any sort of classic central striker pairing.

Your pass maps are a thing of beauty here btw!

Yeah funneling the play centrally is tricky, but I found something quite interesting and I'd like to share, because it's funny how counter intuitive this might seem:
If you want to play through the middle, play with narrow attacking width, and have your midfielders stay wider, and play with wing backs with stay wider, then you can try 2 BPD with stay wider but generally the game is buggy because when they stay wider the defenders rarely consider passing the ball between themselves. Then you need to play with standard or slightly shorter passing, don't tick play out of defense it's crucial, and and have at least 3 to 4 attacking duties up top. Now it seems counter intuitive but, having the back 4 and the midfielders instructed to stay wider, it opens up the midfield, the opposition cannot high press without leaving tons of space in the middle, your midfielders will have tons of space to receive the ball, plus the attacking duty and the lack of restraint on the passing directness means that if the opposition try to play a high defensive line, they will get plundered. The attacking duties create tons of space for the midfielders. Bonus point if you have your wingers sit narrower with instructions to overlap, the AI tend to tight mark the wingers while funneling the play towards them, if you make them tuck inside it leaves tons of space for your wingbacks to overlap. Alternatively you can have your wingers stay wider and instruct to underlap. Also somehow, it made my F9 shine, he had way more space to receive the ball and he made so much more impact in game

[NineCloudNine]

58 minutes ago, skyzekaizo said:

Yeah funneling the play centrally is tricky, but I found something quite interesting and I'd like to share, because it's funny how counter intuitive this might seem:
If you want to play through the middle, play with narrow attacking width, and have your midfielders stay wider, and play with wing backs with stay wider, then you can try 2 BPD with stay wider but generally the game is buggy because when they stay wider the defenders rarely consider passing the ball between themselves. Then you need to play with standard or slightly shorter passing, don't tick play out of defense it's crucial, and and have at least 3 to 4 attacking duties up top. Now it seems counter intuitive but, having the back 4 and the midfielders instructed to stay wider, it opens up the midfield, the opposition cannot high press without leaving tons of space in the middle, your midfielders will have tons of space to receive the ball, plus the attacking duty and the lack of restraint on the passing directness means that if the opposition try to play a high defensive line, they will get plundered. The attacking duties create tons of space for the midfielders. Bonus point if you have your wingers sit narrower with instructions to overlap, the AI tend to tight mark the wingers while funneling the play towards them, if you make them tuck inside it leaves tons of space for your wingbacks to overlap. Alternatively you can have your wingers stay wider and instruct to underlap. Also somehow, it made my F9 shine, he had way more space to receive the ball and he made so much more impact in game

I’m not sure if this counts as an exploit tactic or Guardiola-level genius! Possibly both! 

[Mutumba]

2 hours ago, skyzekaizo said:

Yeah funneling the play centrally is tricky, but I found something quite interesting and I'd like to share, because it's funny how counter intuitive this might seem:
If you want to play through the middle, play with narrow attacking width, and have your midfielders stay wider, and play with wing backs with stay wider, then you can try 2 BPD with stay wider but generally the game is buggy because when they stay wider the defenders rarely consider passing the ball between themselves. Then you need to play with standard or slightly shorter passing, don't tick play out of defense it's crucial, and and have at least 3 to 4 attacking duties up top. Now it seems counter intuitive but, having the back 4 and the midfielders instructed to stay wider, it opens up the midfield, the opposition cannot high press without leaving tons of space in the middle, your midfielders will have tons of space to receive the ball, plus the attacking duty and the lack of restraint on the passing directness means that if the opposition try to play a high defensive line, they will get plundered. The attacking duties create tons of space for the midfielders. Bonus point if you have your wingers sit narrower with instructions to overlap, the AI tend to tight mark the wingers while funneling the play towards them, if you make them tuck inside it leaves tons of space for your wingbacks to overlap. Alternatively you can have your wingers stay wider and instruct to underlap. Also somehow, it made my F9 shine, he had way more space to receive the ball and he made so much more impact in game

Intriguing. Care to share, Care bear? Can you share how you set up that tactic? Does TI/PI matter?