Arsenal 4-2-4 Tactic, The Best I've Ever Made!

[Jr35]

4-2 in build-up phase

3-2-5/3-3-4 in transition

3-1-6/2-2-6 at the third phase

 

PI's

White - take more risks, sit narrower 

Saliba - stay wider

Calafiori - sit narrower, cross more often

Timber - tackle harder

Rice - take more risks, dribble more, move into channels, close down more, tackle harder

Saka - cut inside, tackle harder

Odegaard - cross more often, stay wider, tackle harder

Havertz - roam from position, tackle harder

Martinelli - hold up ball, sit narrower, tackle harder 

 

Edited July 25 by Jr35

[El Payaso]

Well, it works. 

In real life this kind of system would be very prone to counter attacks, especially taking into account the fact that Jorginho is very slow and the only somewhat holding player on the pitch. Haven't followed him a lot at Arsenal but at least at Chelsea, he was a defensive liability thanks to his slow feet and needed other players to support him. 

I would also claim that Odegaard and his mobility goes a bit into waste in a static system and he would be fairly easy to mark away.

And again, not a big fan of asymmetric formations. 

[Jr35]

56 dakika önce, El Payaso said:

In real life this kind of system would be very prone to counter attacks, especially taking into account the fact that Jorginho is very slow and the only somewhat holding player on the pitch. Haven't followed him a lot at Arsenal but at least at Chelsea, he was a defensive liability thanks to his slow feet and needed other players to support him. 

 

calafiori plays in cautious  mentality and when saliba slides right side to the pitch calafiori makes 3 at the back. so this makes 3-1-6 shape

 

59 dakika önce, El Payaso said:

I would also claim that Odegaard and his mobility goes a bit into waste in a static system and he would be fairly easy to mark away.

yes, EG is static role but i put runners around him. in my opinion this is a DLP role at AM position. when the opponent marks him closely he drops back and make room for Havertz (who is roaming, f9 but still runs) and Saka's half space runs (bc of fairly narrow attacking width)

[crusadertsar]

@Jr35 What's your thinking in having a static playmaker role behind the False9 ? I mean False 9 is supposed to drop deep and create space and chances for onrushing attacking midfielders like a shadow striker. A lot of other roles could also work with False9, like AM(a), trequartista or even AM(s) with some get forward more instruction. But I'm pretty sure that False9 and Enganche would have the worst synergy here. Your tactic would improve by a lot if you literally stuck almost any other AMC role here. 

Edit: I now see I missed your explanation for EG role but I still think that playing False 9 and EG together limits the strengths of both roles. Why not a Trequartista in Striker position combined with EG? This way you can use Haverz's creativity and offensive strength while making sure that he both links well with Odegaard and pushes the defensive line in attack. I find that Treq Striker is a nice hybrid role with both support and offensive capabilities.

Edited July 23 by crusadertsar

[Jr35]

15 saat önce, crusadertsar said:

False 9 is supposed to drop deep and create space and chances for onrushing attacking midfielders

its true.

you can see some graphics of average positions from last matches.

in this tactic first goal scoring option is wingers, not striker. Also F9 runs late into the penalty area and this role makes more runs behind the defense than any other creative strikers. i positioned the F9 (with roam from position instruction) to left side of the pitch. then overload to left side with adding sit narrower intruction to the left winger and move into channels instruction to the left midfielder. EG has stay wider instruction also. when EG drops deep and wide, this years positional play feature moves F9 to the central of the pitch and left side players push him up a little bit more (can’t drop too much) for disturb to 2 central defenders(i called this False Poacher). he’s pinning the central defenders and create gaps for IF at the same time. also Enganche's dropping deep make gaps for Winger(A) to run into the half space.

Edited July 24 by Jr35

[Jr35]

 

On 23.07.2024 at 17:19, Jr35 said:

3-1-6/2-2-6 at the third phase

this is how it looks

 

[Adonalsium]

the enganche is not actually static at all. common myth propagated by in game description. never trust role descriptions.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, Adonalsium said:

the enganche is not actually static at all. common myth propagated by in game description. never trust role descriptions.

Or you know it could be that it comes hard coded with hold position.

 

[crusadertsar]

25 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Or you know it could be that it comes hard coded with hold position.

 

Yeah. Or also the fact that player unique traits are an actual thing in the game which override the role instructions sometimes.

Edited July 26 by crusadertsar

[Adonalsium]

If you observe the enganche in game you'll see that the player is not all that stationary. I have had enganches scoring double digit goals, making lots of forward runs and roaming around like any other role. It ultimate depends on the player you put there. A mobile player like Odegaard is going to move around regardless of role.

Edited July 27 by Adonalsium

[dzek]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Or you know it could be that it comes hard coded with hold position.

 

Because you seem to have created the game and you know every detail of it. I have a question about the "Hold Position" instruction.

Does this instruction tell the player to hold his position within the box where he can move? For example, if we assume that a DM role can move to the CM and AM positions, does that tell it not to? Exclude the new "Positional Play" feature here.

Or

Does this instruction tell the player not to move to other positions in the formation? Such as WBRL, MRL, etc. 

I'd be very happy if you know the answer and enlighten me too.

** I don't want you to take it as a sarcastic comment or anyway somewhat mean-spirited, it just seems very fake to me, with knowing everything (I mean everything) about the game down to the last detail.

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, dzek said:

Because you seem to have created the game and you know every detail of it. I have a question about the "Hold Position" instruction.

Does this instruction tell the player to hold his position within the box where he can move? For example, if we assume that a DM role can move to the CM and AM positions, does that tell it not to? Exclude the new "Positional Play" feature here.

Or

Does this instruction tell the player not to move to other positions in the formation? Such as WBRL, MRL, etc. 

I'd be very happy if you know the answer and enlighten me too.

** I don't want you to take it as a sarcastic comment or anyway somewhat mean-spirited, it just seems very fake to me, with knowing everything (I mean everything) about the game down to the last detail.

I certainly don't know how everything works in the game! If you're unsure about a PI, you can just hover over it with your mouse and the game will explain it to you itself.

Hold Position is a very straight forward principle. As @crusadertsar mentions, traits can overrule the PIs and TIs of your tactic and see a player charge off to do his own thing. Most positional play roles will not give you the ability to ask a role to hold, unless he is moving from one holding role to the other (such as a HB). 

• Hold Position is simply the counterpart to Roam from Position. He will be staying put when your team has the ball. 

Keep in mind that each role will have coding under the hood, so not all roles will behave the same with a PI ticked. 

• At the end of the day your tactical setup is impacting the tendency of your player to do something. With PIs you are directly telling the player what you expect from him in certain situations.

Edited July 27 by Cloud9

[crusadertsar]

17 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I certainly don't know how everything works in the game! If you're unsure about a PI, you can just hover over it with your mouse and the game will explain it to you itself.

Hold Position is a very straight forward principle. As @crusadertsar mentions, traits can overrule the PIs and TIs of your tactic and see a player charge off to do his own thing. Most positional play roles will not give you the ability to ask a role to hold, unless he is moving from one holding role to the other (such as a HB). 

• Hold Position is simply the counterpart to Roam from Position. He will be staying put when your team has the ball. 

Keep in mind that each role will have coding under the hood, so not all roles will behave the same with a PI ticked. 

• At the end of the day your tactical setup is impacting the tendency of your player to do something. With PIs you are directly telling the player what you expect from him in certain situations.

Very well said! Also can't forget the impact of "be more expressive" team instruction. It's probably one that's most significant as it has global repercussions over all your roles in a tactic. So yes "hold position" instruction is very straightforward and it's what makes Enganche the unique role that it is. But unfortunately many people lose sight of that because there are so many other factors at play in a tactic. Yes, you might see your Enganche moving around and scoring goals but what kind of traits does he have or what instructions does your tactic use? At the end of the day, maybe combination of all those things don't really make him a true Enganche anymore. 

[dzek]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I certainly don't know how everything works in the game! If you're unsure about a PI, you can just hover over it with your mouse and the game will explain it to you itself.

Hold Position is a very straight forward principle. As @crusadertsar mentions, traits can overrule the PIs and TIs of your tactic and see a player charge off to do his own thing. Most positional play roles will not give you the ability to ask a role to hold, unless he is moving from one holding role to the other (such as a HB). 

• Hold Position is simply the counterpart to Roam from Position. He will be staying put when your team has the ball. 

Keep in mind that each role will have coding under the hood, so not all roles will behave the same with a PI ticked. 

• At the end of the day your tactical setup is impacting the tendency of your player to do something. With PIs you are directly telling the player what you expect from him in certain situations.

I understand what you're saying but what many people have been saying for years (and I understand them completely) is that the game UI and descriptions in general don't give the real picture but something too general and sometimes misunderstood.

So I would like to try to understand this instruction on its own without including the other variables.

Where it says the description "...whilst others may roam or swap positions with others..." is not specific at all but very general. One could easily think, if I don't put this PI on my DM then I might as well see him move to the AMLR positions. And really, no matter how logically you try to look at the game, it's still a game made by people with specific instructions. That's how the codes work.

There are inputs and outputs in general. When I as a manager don't know 100% what that particular input does then I can't understand the output.

And again I say, I fully understand that roles, TIs etc can affect the behaviour of the role and the whole team behaviour in general.

How do I create the tactical style I want when I don't know 100% what each instruction does? The logic here is that I as a manager give the direction, knowing what I want from my players, and then it's up to them and their abilities to carry it out.

I think these questions are very common from many FM players, especially the new ones.

Edited July 27 by dzek

[Cloud9]

21 hours ago, dzek said:

I understand what you're saying but what many people have been saying for years (and I understand them completely) is that the game UI and descriptions in general don't give the real picture but something too general and sometimes misunderstood.

So I would like to try to understand this instruction on its own without including the other variables.

Where it says the description "...whilst others may roam or swap positions with others..." is not specific at all but very general. One could easily think, if I don't put this PI on my DM then I might as well see him move to the AMLR positions. And really, no matter how logically you try to look at the game, it's still a game made by people with specific instructions. That's how the codes work.

There are inputs and outputs in general. When I as a manager don't know 100% what that particular input does then I can't understand the output.

And again I say, I fully understand that roles, TIs etc can affect the behaviour of the role and the whole team behaviour in general.

How do I create the tactical style I want when I don't know 100% what each instruction does? The logic here is that I as a manager give the direction, knowing what I want from my players, and then it's up to them and their abilities to carry it out.

I think these questions are very common from many FM players, especially the new ones.

Perhaps you are overcomplicating things? Everything impacts everything on FM so it is easy to do.

• I would focus on roles for anyone struggling with the tactical UI. Building a foundation of how roles move/interact with each other will give you the tools you need to build a successful tactic. 

Keeping it simple and watching matches (I like the data analyst view), can help give you a better idea of how your tactical changes impact the players. Running a tactic with a fairly blank slate of TIs can go a long way. TIs are a little bit vague in the UI in terms of their actual function, but the PIs are fairly straight forward. You can always do a search on the forum for a specific TI and it's exact outputs...there are years of experience here. 

• Since everything impacts everything, there will always be a lot of problem solving/testing of specific interactions  

I have linked the FM24 Manual, which is a strong reference: https://community.sports-interactive.com/sigames-manual/football-manager-2024/

Edited July 28 by Cloud9