Positional Play in 442 - Central play and 235 attacking shape in FM24

[crusadertsar]

I would like to share a pretty simple tactic that I discovered recently. It appears mostly like a traditional 442 except with a twist. And works very well in FM24. 

I was actually inspired to try this after seeing AI-controlled Real Hispalis use it against my 4-2-3-1 DM formation. We lost that game 3-2. Hispalis were just too dangerous in the final third, with constant movement in the half-spaces from both CM(A) and AF. And they did this despite having no DM position role which is usually required to counter 4-2-3-1's AM advantage. 

But this is where FM24's Positional Play and clever choice of roles come in. 

With IWs and CM(A) moving into AMC strata in possession phase, we get a nice overload in the central area which helps with making central space the focus for buildup and passing plays (instead of the flanks as is more common in 442). IWB covers nicely for CM's attacking movement by settling into CM defensive position next to the DLP. While the DLP in the middle combined with a more conservative right FB and IWB fullbacks also contribute to central play rather than the more common wingplay and crossing we see from the traditional wingbacks. In attack it morphs into a sort of crooked 2-3-5 shape that AI has a lot of trouble dealing with. 

I am planning to show some match examples to illustrate how well the attack functions. It's still the early days but we already had some pretty high scoring games in LaLiga. 

Has anyone else experimented with some non-traditional (non-winger) 442 formations?

Edited August 7 by crusadertsar

[Cloud9]

31 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I would like to share a pretty simple tactic that I discovered recently. It's appears mostly like a traditional 442 except with a twist. And works very well in FM24. 

I was actually inspired to try this after seeing AI-controlled Real Hispalis use it against my 4-2-3-1 DM formation. We lost that game 3-2. Hispalis were just too dangerous in the final third, with constant movement in the half-spaces from both CM(A) and AF. And they did this despite having no DM position role which is usually required to counter 4-2-3-1's AM advantage. 

But this is where FM24's Positional Play and clever choice of roles come in. 

With IWs and CM(A) moving into AMC strata in possession phase, we get a nice overload in the central area which helps with making central space the focus for buildup and passing plays (instead of the flanks as is more common in 442). IWB covers nicely for CM's attacking movement by settling into CM defensive position next to the DLP. While the DLP in the middle combined with a more conservative right FB and IWB fullbacks also contribute to central play rather than the more common wingplay and crossing we see from the traditional wingbacks. In attack it morphs into a sort of crooked 2-3-5 shape that AI has a lot of trouble dealing with. 

I am planning to show some match examples to illustrate how well the attack functions. It's still the early days but we already had some pretty high scoring games in LaLiga. 

Has anyone else experimented with some non-traditional (non-winger) 442 formations?

I was using a similar-ish type of setup at the start of FM24 where the SV combined really nicely with a WP(a)! Some great movement between the two. That being said, I am increasingly a fan of the IW(s) for the buildup phases of play. I think the WP(a) can provide a little extra fizz (perhaps redundent with your DLF + DLP). 

 

 

Edited August 7 by Cloud9

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Cloud9 said:

I was using a similar-ish type of setup at the start of FM24 where the SV combined really nicely with a WP(a)! Some great movement between the two. That being said, I am increasingly a fan of the IW(s) for the buildup phases of play. I think the WP(a) can provide a little extra fizz (perhaps redundent with your DLF + DLP). 

 

 

Nice one 👍

WP is probably ideal for the pairing with DLP just because of overload possibilities. It's just WP requires a pretty specialized player, unlike IW. 

[El Payaso]

I did this at one point with my Real Betis save, except I was using a 4-4-1-1 formation where I had Kai Havertz up front and Nabil Fekir as a shadow striker. 

I used Ez Abde down the left flank as an inverted winger while Rodri played as a wide playmaker down the right. Lo Celso was definitely the standout player as segundo volante as Ez Abde's movement on his side was giving him a lot of space to make late runs and even stay unmarked in the middle. 

Rodri was also super unpredictable as a wide playmaker and scored a few goals like this:

I could easily try a 4-4-2 with Torino, too, but I decided that I am only going to be playing with a 3-man defense with them. Obviously with the positional play it would be easy to create this kind of shape even with a 4-4-2 but still. 

As I have already chosen my team for the FM 2025 save, I'm going to get back to 4-4-2 for the first time since FM 2007. This is actually quite close to the idea that I have already had in my mind when thinking about how the team will line up initially. 

 

Edited August 7 by El Payaso

[crusadertsar]

What I really like about my 442 formation is actually the role combination down the right side. 

FB(A), DLP(S) and AF in front of the IW(S). As the IW cuts inside, it allows the AF to take advantage of his instruction to move into channels. While the standard winger role might get into AF's space.  With IW and AF combination you get movement that is harder to pick up by opposition defenders.  It also allows alot of space for your FB on the flank.  The synergy between these four roles is just great. Can't believe I haven't tried them like this before. 

Edited August 7 by crusadertsar

[Tikka Mezzala]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

What I really like about my 442 formation is actually the role combination down the right side. 

FB(A), DLP(S) and AF in front of the IW(S). As the IW cuts inside, it allows the AF to take advantage of his instructions to move into channels. While the standard winger role might get into AF's space.  With IW and AF combination you get movement that is harder to pick up by opposition defenders.  It also allows alot of space for your FB on the flank.  The synergy between these four roles is just great. Can't believe I haven't tried them like this before. 

Mind if I ask about the "throw it long" and "hold shape" TIs?

I haven't used them much. What is the benefit of using them here?

[crusadertsar]

27 minutes ago, Tikka Mezzala said:

Mind if I ask about the "throw it long" and "hold shape" TIs?

I haven't used them much. What is the benefit of using them here?

One thing I cannot stand is losing possession needlessly due to stupid kicks upfield from my keeper. I find this happens even when I set their kicking to short. So distribution to CBs combined with throwing is one way I try to combat this. Also my current batch of keepers have an excellent throwing attribute and trait to start counters with throws. 

"Hold Position" instruction is something I use in almost all of my tactics where I want to try to keep a bit more possession through the middle. Especially to balance the more aggressive defending instructions I have. 

[BadAss88]

@crusadertsar Doesn't get the IW(S), DLF(S) and CM(A) all get in the way of each other on the left side? I really can't see how this creates a 2-3-5 shape.

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

@crusadertsar Doesn't get the IW(S), DLF(S) and CM(A) all get in the way of each other on the left side? I really can't see how this creates a 2-3-5 shape.

No. Due to positional play in FM24 it actually works very well. The left IW will move to the left side when CM(a) moves up into AMC strata. Just try this in game, works very well and does create 235 for me. I also tell my left IW to play wider, in addition to having wider team instruction. 

And the benefit of having two IWs is that they play much smarter when in possession of the ball, often doing one-twos and short passes instead of just dribbling blindly to cross and usually lose possession by having cross blocked by opposition fullback as traditional wingers tend to do.

And DLf never gets in the way of onrushing central midfielders. The whole point of the role is creating space for runners. 

Roles are not just written descriptions, you need to watch matches on at least comprehensive to see how they behave together and some are meant to compliment each other in ways that is not described well in the role description.

Edited August 7 by crusadertsar

[BadAss88]

8 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

No. Due to positional play in FM24 it actually works very well. The left IW will move to the left side when CM(a) moves up into AMC strata. Just try this in game, works very well and does create 235 for me. I also tell my left IW to play wider, in addition to having wider team instruction. 

And the benefit of having two IWs is that they play much smarter when in possession of the ball, often doing one-twos and short passes instead of just dribbling blindly to cross and usually lose possession by having cross blocked by opposition fullback as traditional wingers tend to do.

I'll give it a try, I'm very curious!

[bosque]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

And the benefit of having two IWs is that they play much smarter when in possession of the ball, often doing one-twos and short passes instead of just dribbling blindly to cross and usually lose possession by having cross blocked by opposition fullback as traditional wingers tend to do.

Have you tried with Wingers wrong footed? For example a left footed playing as right winger. I'm following this thread because I'm a big fan of the 442

[Cloud9]

44 minutes ago, bosque said:

Have you tried with Wingers wrong footed? For example a left footed playing as right winger. I'm following this thread because I'm a big fan of the 442

W(a) on an off foot would give you a far more direct player, I usually use them for 1v1 specialists.

In the support role you'd have more flexibility with the tinkering of PIs; but it still wouldn't be a role who specializes in keeping possession like the IW(s). 

The two roles (off foot and IW) behave differently as well. The off footed winger tends to go forward but w/the width around the edge of the penalty area. The IW will participate in buildup play and cut inside. 

I think this is mentioned in another thread, but since the IW(s) does not provide a ton of flashy numbers (line breaking passes/end product) their number ratings are frequently quite low...even when they are performing great. You need to look at the individual players stats and how he's performing in game to see if you're actually getting what you're looking for. 

Edited August 7 by Cloud9

[CharlieTZR]

On 07/08/2024 at 03:03, crusadertsar said:

With IWs and CM(A) moving into AMC strata in possession phase, we get a nice overload in the central area which helps with making central space the focus for buildup and passing plays (instead of the flanks as is more common in 442). IWB covers nicely for CM's attacking movement by settling into CM defensive position next to the DLP. While the DLP in the middle combined with a more conservative right FB and IWB fullbacks also contribute to central play rather than the more common wingplay and crossing we see from the traditional wingbacks. In attack it morphs into a sort of crooked 2-3-5 shape that AI has a lot of trouble dealing with. 

I am planning to show some match examples to illustrate how well the attack functions. It's still the early days but we already had some pretty high scoring games in LaLiga. 

Has anyone else experimented with some non-traditional (non-winger) 442 formations?

I do something quite similar with your IWB solution. I have a right FB who have a excellent work rate and is one of my best players and captain. he isn't a good wing back or a IWB, his best postion is FB(s) so I use PI to make him cut inside and get further forward (alos have shooting more ofern due to his skill but this doesn't influence his movement). due to his work rate he is very present in the area of IWB especially when my right CM (a B2B) goes forward. So hi contributes as a DM; on right side I use a W (a) to give more witdth. The left CM is a BWM with a hold position PI so I have at some point 2 players in posession in the respective area, the FB cutting inside and the BWM holding position.

My tactics is pretty different, goes more for a counter tactic but I'll use the idea with AF and IW to see how it goes. I am still experimenting with this tactic, my main ones being a pretty vanilla 4231 and a 442 with 2 DMs possesion tactic

[crusadertsar]

14 hours ago, bosque said:

Have you tried with Wingers wrong footed? For example a left footed playing as right winger. I'm following this thread because I'm a big fan of the 442

Exactly what @Cloud9 said above me. Winger will still aggressively dribble and not get as much involved in passing plays like IW would. Off foot will make him cut in more but won't change his behaviour to that of IW.

[BadAss88]

16 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I think this is mentioned in another thread, but since the IW(s) does not provide a ton of flashy numbers (line breaking passes/end product) their number ratings are frequently quite low...even when they are performing great. You need to look at the individual players stats and how he's performing in game to see if you're actually getting what you're looking for. 

@crusadertsar Do you suffer from low ratings for the IW's?

[BenEtchells]

On 07/08/2024 at 11:35, crusadertsar said:

What I really like about my 442 formation is actually the role combination down the right side. 

FB(A), DLP(S) and AF in front of the IW(S). As the IW cuts inside, it allows the AF to take advantage of his instruction to move into channels. While the standard winger role might get into AF's space.  With IW and AF combination you get movement that is harder to pick up by opposition defenders.  It also allows alot of space for your FB on the flank.  The synergy between these four roles is just great. Can't believe I haven't tried them like this before. 

What are the individual instructions, is it just move into channels on AF

 

On 07/08/2024 at 11:35, crusadertsar said:

What I really like about my 442 formation is actually the role combination down the right side. 

FB(A), DLP(S) and AF in front of the IW(S). As the IW cuts inside, it allows the AF to take advantage of his instruction to move into channels. While the standard winger role might get into AF's space.  With IW and AF combination you get movement that is harder to pick up by opposition defenders.  It also allows alot of space for your FB on the flank.  The synergy between these four roles is just great. Can't believe I haven't tried them like this before. 

 

[crusadertsar]

13 hours ago, BenEtchells said:

What are the individual instructions, is it just move into channels on AF

 

 

Move into channels is hardcoded for AF already. The only two individual instructions I add were stay wider for my left IW (as mentioned in the post) and dribble more for BPD (because of the quality of my player and to help with bringing the ball out of defence). 

Edited August 11 by crusadertsar

[naufal husain]

just try it on a friendly match, obviously irrelevant speaking of result, but it's chaotic for sure. my left IW even scored a hattrick from inside the box. with right kind of players, it's can be very dangerous

   

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, naufal husain said:

just try it on a friendly match, obviously irrelevant speaking of result, but it's chaotic for sure. my left IW even scored a hattrick from inside the box. with right kind of players, it's can be very dangerous

   

These are some of my highest scoring games this season with the tactic. And they are NOT friendlies. So hopefully your success continues 

Edited August 12 by crusadertsar

[josh.whelan102]

This looks grand, going to try this with my Man Utd team, Zirkzee and Hoiljund up front. Could this work with Mainoo and Bruno in CM? 

[crusadertsar]

On 13/08/2024 at 05:10, josh.whelan102 said:

This looks grand, going to try this with my Man Utd team, Zirkzee and Hoiljund up front. Could this work with Mainoo and Bruno in CM? 

I see no reason why it wouldn't work with Man United. My Real Sociedad, even in 2034, is not as strong as United in 2024, and we are still 2nd in LaLiga in May. 

[mikcheck]

Always enjoy a good 442 thread. Even tho I'm playing an older FM version, I'm using a flat 442 for quite some time now, to have those quick direct counters I really enjoy. I'm not as adventurous as you, I use a B2B instead of CM(a). 

Upfront I use two attack duties DLF and AF. Whats interesting is that the DLF has the comes deep trait, so he's aggressive attacking the space with attacking duty but still comes deep sometimes. Most of my players have good jumping reach, which is really hard to find but it's important for the way I like to play. I love when the keeper take those long kicks, the player wins the aerial challenge and an excellent chance for a quick counter happens.

Edited August 18 by mikcheck

[Lasson]

With the introduction of positional play in FM24, I was always looking to create some sort of 4-4-2, because, to me, that is the ideal defensive structure. I looked at your 4-4-2 and tried it out for a couple of matches, and it just didn't feel entirely right, mainly because of the CM(a), who felt disconnected from the '4' in the defensive phase. With that in mind, I made a change and the two central midfielders became two defensive midfielders with the CM(a) becoming a SV(a).

 

[TheMartello]

52 minutes ago, Lasson said:

With the introduction of positional play in FM24, I was always looking to create some sort of 4-4-2, because, to me, that is the ideal defensive structure. I looked at your 4-4-2 and tried it out for a couple of matches, and it just didn't feel entirely right, mainly because of the CM(a), who felt disconnected from the '4' in the defensive phase. With that in mind, I made a change and the two central midfielders became two defensive midfielders with the CM(a) becoming a SV(a).

 

Which Team Instructions/ Player Instructions do you use?

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Lasson said:

With the introduction of positional play in FM24, I was always looking to create some sort of 4-4-2, because, to me, that is the ideal defensive structure. I looked at your 4-4-2 and tried it out for a couple of matches, and it just didn't feel entirely right, mainly because of the CM(a), who felt disconnected from the '4' in the defensive phase. With that in mind, I made a change and the two central midfielders became two defensive midfielders with the CM(a) becoming a SV(a).

 

That's impressive improvement in chances created with just one role change and drop down to DM strata. You must have really good players that fit the formation.

Any big changes in team instructions?

[Medio Volante]

Can never get tired of 4-4-2 defensive shape. Looking forward to seeing how it looks in-game. 

[Lasson]

6 hours ago, TheMartello said:

Which Team Instructions/ Player Instructions do you use?

5 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

That's impressive improvement in chances created with just one role change and drop down to DM strata. You must have really good players that fit the formation.

Any big changes in team instructions?

As for the Player Instructions, I only have "Stay Wider" on my left IW(s).

[kransen]

Has anyone managed to make a wide midfielder a real attacking threat? Want my right winger be an off the ball menace, running in behind to receive the ball in the channels and either center it or try to finish it himself.