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Attacking Width - when shall I use each setting?


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I know what attacking width does , but I don’t have a concrete idea in my head when to use wide and when to use narrow. If anyone can give any examples that would be great .

I’ve heard that narrow width can be better for counter pressing since everyone is closer to each other and the ball.

ive heard that more width in general is better for breaking down a low block since you can stretch the defence better or go round the side easier.

any other examples?
 

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2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

any other examples?

Possession would be the main one, I think. Easier to keep the ball if players are closer to each other, fewer chances for stray passes or opposition interceptions. Since I like to play possession football I usually start games on quite narrow settings, then go wider if we're struggling to break down a parked bus.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 04/09/2024 at 17:43, warlock said:

Possession would be the main one, I think. Easier to keep the ball if players are closer to each other, fewer chances for stray passes or opposition interceptions. Since I like to play possession football I usually start games on quite narrow settings, then go wider if we're struggling to break down a parked bus.

Why don't you start matches wider and play mixed passing instead of short passing (my assumption) when expecting to dominate / meet a low block?
What do you risk when not playing narrow? Is the pass completion % much lower?

Edited by nugatti
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29 minutes ago, nugatti said:

Why don't you start matches wider

For the reasons mentioned in the OP and my post. Namely, playing narrow makes it harder for the AI to play through our defence, improves our pressing, allows us to keep the ball and control the game.

As a general rule - espoused by many professional coaches - you want the pitch to be as small as possible in defence, and as large as possible in attack. My preference is to start narrow, and then use roles or PIs to get the appropriate players to move wide in attack.

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8 hours ago, warlock said:

For the reasons mentioned in the OP and my post. Namely, playing narrow makes it harder for the AI to play through our defence, improves our pressing, allows us to keep the ball and control the game.

As a general rule - espoused by many professional coaches - you want the pitch to be as small as possible in defence, and as large as possible in attack. My preference is to start narrow, and then use roles or PIs to get the appropriate players to move wide in attack.

So, according to what you describe, maybe it could be better to 'let them have it' from the start rather than waiting? Streching the pitch should be effective according the theory. When in the lead exploit them on the counter, yes? :)

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7 minutes ago, warlock said:

Sure, if that's what you want. Your game, your rules, have at it :thup:

Well, I see no reason to limit players using their skill from minute 1, so hell yeah!

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On 13/09/2024 at 13:42, warlock said:

For the reasons mentioned in the OP and my post. Namely, playing narrow makes it harder for the AI to play through our defence, improves our pressing, allows us to keep the ball and control the game.

As a general rule - espoused by many professional coaches - you want the pitch to be as small as possible in defence, and as large as possible in attack. My preference is to start narrow, and then use roles or PIs to get the appropriate players to move wide in attack.

Interesting. What roles and PI:s?

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2 hours ago, Dreambuilder said:

What roles and PI:s?

Below is a 4231 I used to achieve an unbeaten season with Southampton in an earlier save (after winning the Championship in season 1):

image.png.87d6a4e33bdbd73ff43899df74bc7e24.png

My next save was at Celta Vigo in Spain and I used this same system initially, and then made a simple change to a 433 by dropping the SS back to a CM-attack, and pushing one of the DMs forward to either a Mez-support or a carillero. We recorded back-to-back invincible seasons.

The TIs define the shape - narrow, mid-block, with a focus on retaining the ball but ready to counter when the opportunity arises. The roles reinforce the shape - one AM staying wide, one coming narrow, with the attacking fullback moving up to provide the width in the attacking third. In the 433 the same principle applies, but a CM moving wide provides additional support in the channel, either a Mez or a carillero. Setting up narrow provides the space for the wide players, who are vital in supporting the attack, creating chances while still being responsible in defence.

I don't usually use PIs or OIs. Occasionally I'll tell a specific player to dribble or shoot less. If I have a capable CD I might ask him to dribble more. On the specific subject of attacking wide, I'll simply tell one of the CMs to run wide in possession.

 

Edited by warlock
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Do you guys automatically go for narrow width if the other team is playing a flat 442 for example or wide if they're playing a 352? Or do you normally start all the games on normal and change based on what you see during the game?

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5 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Do you guys automatically go for narrow width if the other team is playing a flat 442 for example or wide if they're playing a 352? Or do you normally start all the games on normal and change based on what you see during the game?

The second approach is the more logical one and I would say the best for learning how to read the game

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8 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Or do you normally start all the games on normal and change based on what you see during the game?

This is the way I allways play. If I notice I change my width on game to game basis to the same setting then I'll put in my tactic. But a flat 442 or a 352 can play out different from team to team. So I have tendecies to how I play against them, but first I need to know how they play. 

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6 horas atrás, bosque disse:

The second approach is the more logical one and I would say the best for learning how to read the game

 

2 horas atrás, Feddo disse:

This is the way I allways play. If I notice I change my width on game to game basis to the same setting then I'll put in my tactic. But a flat 442 or a 352 can play out different from team to team. So I have tendecies to how I play against them, but first I need to know how they play. 

 

1 hora atrás, Dr Naysay disse:

For me too it's not formation specific, you can rip apart a 352 with a narrow defensive width while having a narrow possesion setting yourself or you might struggle so it's read and react to what I am seeing.

 

Yeah I understand and I guess that's the correct way to do it. Unless you're really bad at reading the game as I do :D That's why I always use it depending on the formation they use

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2 hours ago, mikcheck said:

 

 

 

Yeah I understand and I guess that's the correct way to do it. Unless you're really bad at reading the game as I do :D That's why I always use it depending on the formation they use

If I am playing a team I am expected to and am dominating in most metrics but am doing nothing shots/xg wise I'll wait till  the 20th minute mark and then incrementally change things.

Width, creativity, tempo, changing player roles and substitutes are all part of the process for me and for the most part those changes will change the game for me.

Defensive transitions is a whole different kettle of fish for me and where I will focus most of my energy but attacking wise it's all "do we look like we are going to win this game early or do I need to make changes now."

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2 horas atrás, Dr Naysay disse:

If I am playing a team I am expected to and am dominating in most metrics but am doing nothing shots/xg wise I'll wait till  the 20th minute mark and then incrementally change things.

Width, creativity, tempo, changing player roles and substitutes are all part of the process for me and for the most part those changes will change the game for me.

Defensive transitions is a whole different kettle of fish for me and where I will focus most of my energy but attacking wise it's all "do we look like we are going to win this game early or do I need to make changes now."

Interesting. I know it really depends but what would you say it's the thing you change the most regarding the attacking aspect during the match? Do you ever change mentality for example? Because that changes a lot of things at  once.

What you said about the defensive transitions, what you really mean is that you also change it before the match begins (defensive line, low/mediu/high block, trigger press)?

Edited by mikcheck
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20 hours ago, mikcheck said:

Interesting. I know it really depends but what would you say it's the thing you change the most regarding the attacking aspect during the match? Do you ever change mentality for example? Because that changes a lot of things at  once.

What you said about the defensive transitions, what you really mean is that you also change it before the match begins (defensive line, low/mediu/high block, trigger press)?

I start every match with my default tactic and then react to what I am seeing. The two biggest changes earlier on will be width and tempo first. After that it's substitutions and then eventually it's giving the opposition defence  more to worry about by having more runners from deep. I might change my DM to a RPM, I might change the inverted fullback to a proper attacking fullback. Essentially I will want to change from a 3-2-5 rest defence to a 2-2-6 against stubborn inferior teams. I very very rarely change mentality.

Defensively the best thing I can do is to see where my attacking transitions are breaking down and try and stop those, because having a riskier tactic means turning the ball over in inopportune areas is the biggest threat. Against teams that present a legitimate threat defensively I might drop the defensive line, I might put an OI on a dangerous player or I might change a players role but I always start out the same against every team and react to what I am seeing. One area that I don't neglect is if I am able to change the dimensions of my pitch I will do so to suit my tactic. If I am playing a very high line, high pressing tactic I will lower the vertical dimensions because 10 meters less between my CBs and the goalie is really useful. I will do the converse if I am wanting to be a counter attacking team. You play 50% of your games at home so it makes sense to set your pitch out to help you as much as possible. Right now I am playing a possession based system with a very high line so I have set the pitch to 100 by 64 meters. This helps negates teams playing over the top against me but also allows me to play wider and stretch the field against stubborn defensive teams if I so desire.

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21 saat önce, Dr Naysay said:

then react to what I am seeing

how can you read the game mate? before FM24 i was a guy who don’t care about making specific things on the pitch, i used to stick to plug and play style. as you all know these tactics are winning in every situation so you don’t need to read the game to react to it.

now i make tweaks when ass. manager tells. like when i had 2-0 ahead my assistant tells that the oppositon drops their mentality to cautious (i know cautious mentality has fairly narrow attacking width) and i use trapping outside. but these are just minor things. i don’t know how to read the game. could you share some tips/advices from your knowledge?

Edited by Jr35
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3 hours ago, Jr35 said:

how can you read the game mate? before FM24 i was a guy who don’t care about making specific things on the pitch, i used to stick to plug and play style. as you all know these tactics are winning in every situation so you don’t need to read the game to react to it.

now i make tweaks when ass. manager tells. like when i had 2-0 ahead my assistant tells that the oppositon drops their mentality to cautious (i know cautious mentality has fairly narrow attacking width) and i use trapping outside. but these are just minor things. i don’t know how to read the game. could you share some tips/advices from your knowledge?

I was the exact same tbh, it used to infuriate me that I couldn't see it and then one of the ex-mods(Cleon) on here and one of the finest minds with regards to FM taught me to watch games and freeze frame during attacking and defensive transitions and see what's going on. Where are your players during transitions and how is that impacting your tactic.

So for my new save I create a new tactic, the very first attacking transition I see this. The number 14 my DM and the 21 my central midfielder are on top of each other, I want 21 where the red circle is ready to attack that space. I make a note and let the game continue.

Screenshot2024-09-22141617.png.505e6dd74432175225e921b11b1531ea.png

The same thing happens multiple times and every time I see it I say to myself I want that player where the red dot is ready to attack that space.Screenshot2024-09-22142010.png.abe0cc31a661f0ba5c4545f1a303d056.png

Now on to the oppositions first goal. It would very easy to look at their first goal and blame the defence but I want to rewind to the point we lost the ball that led to their goal. And wouldn't you believe it, it's Moyas positioning that is at fault for the turnover that leads to their goal. If Moya(whose my best passer) receives the pass where that red dot is he is drawing their number 14 towards him he then has Carbonell, Guti and Azon in a 3 vs 2 with a lot of space for those three to operate in.

Screenshot2024-09-22143331.png.4b29cd4fc6ab207bf71426e3b1846536.png

Instead, because of where he is positioned in reality he is closed down and stripped of the ball so we take what could be a great opportunity for us and turn it in to an opportunity for them. At the point of turning over I am now looking at how we are positioned defensively and I am pretty happy with what I see here. My Libero is level with the DM forming a bank of two and my two IFBs have formed a back three that will prevent any immediate counter attacks, what i see here is what I want to see. We conceded the goal because a player gave away a brain dead penalty but that goal started with that turnover because of how I set the team up.

Screenshot2024-09-22143947.png.5cd3521d607e8262201a01c89b8d2efc.png

We drew that game 3-3, one of their goals originated from Moyas positioning and two of them started with my goalkeeper kicking the ball long which is not what I want to achieve with a possession based team. I then make changes according to what I was seeing, how do I make Moya play where I want him to play? Often it's trial and error, in this case it was as simple as changing him from a support to an attacking duty. 

Another element I noticed was my striker dribbling in to blind alleys and turning the ball over, so again, what can I do to change that? He's terrible at dribbling and will never be good at it so If I am wanting him to play any other role than a PF or a TM I will teach him the PPM "runs with ball rarely" or I will edit his instructions to dribble less. What I then get is a striker who turns the ball over the least in the league.

Screenshot2024-09-21113447.png.b4e2a658537e0d735d137e5493f6dc34.png

These are things I look for, but personally I am a firm believer that if you have the right defensive personnel the place to look at for goals conceded is where you turn the ball over. It might be an issue with the roles you have set or another tactical failure, it might be something like the mental attributes of a player you like but he just doesn't do what you want him to do but freeze framing and seeing where your players are at key moments are vital imo.

 

 

 

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3 saat önce, Dr Naysay said:

I was the exact same tbh, it used to infuriate me that I couldn't see it and then one of the ex-mods(Cleon) on here and one of the finest minds with regards to FM taught me to watch games and freeze frame during attacking and defensive transitions and see what's going on. Where are your players during transitions and how is that impacting your tactic.

So for my new save I create a new tactic, the very first attacking transition I see this. The number 14 my DM and the 21 my central midfielder are on top of each other, I want 21 where the red circle is ready to attack that space. I make a note and let the game continue.

Screenshot2024-09-22141617.png.505e6dd74432175225e921b11b1531ea.png

The same thing happens multiple times and every time I see it I say to myself I want that player where the red dot is ready to attack that space.Screenshot2024-09-22142010.png.abe0cc31a661f0ba5c4545f1a303d056.png

Now on to the oppositions first goal. It would very easy to look at their first goal and blame the defence but I want to rewind to the point we lost the ball that led to their goal. And wouldn't you believe it, it's Moyas positioning that is at fault for the turnover that leads to their goal. If Moya(whose my best passer) receives the pass where that red dot is he is drawing their number 14 towards him he then has Carbonell, Guti and Azon in a 3 vs 2 with a lot of space for those three to operate in.

Screenshot2024-09-22143331.png.4b29cd4fc6ab207bf71426e3b1846536.png

Instead, because of where he is positioned in reality he is closed down and stripped of the ball so we take what could be a great opportunity for us and turn it in to an opportunity for them. At the point of turning over I am now looking at how we are positioned defensively and I am pretty happy with what I see here. My Libero is level with the DM forming a bank of two and my two IFBs have formed a back three that will prevent any immediate counter attacks, what i see here is what I want to see. We conceded the goal because a player gave away a brain dead penalty but that goal started with that turnover because of how I set the team up.

Screenshot2024-09-22143947.png.5cd3521d607e8262201a01c89b8d2efc.png

We drew that game 3-3, one of their goals originated from Moyas positioning and two of them started with my goalkeeper kicking the ball long which is not what I want to achieve with a possession based team. I then make changes according to what I was seeing, how do I make Moya play where I want him to play? Often it's trial and error, in this case it was as simple as changing him from a support to an attacking duty. 

Another element I noticed was my striker dribbling in to blind alleys and turning the ball over, so again, what can I do to change that? He's terrible at dribbling and will never be good at it so If I am wanting him to play any other role than a PF or a TM I will teach him the PPM "runs with ball rarely" or I will edit his instructions to dribble less. What I then get is a striker who turns the ball over the least in the league.

Screenshot2024-09-21113447.png.b4e2a658537e0d735d137e5493f6dc34.png

These are things I look for, but personally I am a firm believer that if you have the right defensive personnel the place to look at for goals conceded is where you turn the ball over. It might be an issue with the roles you have set or another tactical failure, it might be something like the mental attributes of a player you like but he just doesn't do what you want him to do but freeze framing and seeing where your players are at key moments are vital imo.

 

 

 

i understood what you telling mate. i admire the care you put into the details of your reply. really great effort btw. my attacking sets seems great to me but i'm awful at defending different variations. I'd like to hear any suggestions you have that vary depending on opposition tactics/formations etc.

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15 hours ago, Jr35 said:

i understood what you telling mate. i admire the care you put into the details of your reply. really great effort btw. my attacking sets seems great to me but i'm awful at defending different variations. I'd like to hear any suggestions you have that vary depending on opposition tactics/formations etc.

I will do some analysis over the next few games to show you what I expect before a game, how I actually react to the what I am seeing defensively and how things play out with the changes I make defensively. One of the biggest changes I will make to games are changes to close a game out when the opposition eventually decide to throw the kitchen sink at me as the game is ticking away.

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On 22/09/2024 at 12:16, Jr35 said:

how can you read the game mate? before FM24 i was a guy who don’t care about making specific things on the pitch, i used to stick to plug and play style. as you all know these tactics are winning in every situation so you don’t need to read the game to react to it.

now i make tweaks when ass. manager tells. like when i had 2-0 ahead my assistant tells that the oppositon drops their mentality to cautious (i know cautious mentality has fairly narrow attacking width) and i use trapping outside. but these are just minor things. i don’t know how to read the game. could you share some tips/advices from your knowledge?

Never thought of that, thanks! Do you feel this works consistently? So if they go attacking, trap inside can work?

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5 saat önce, Dreambuilder said:

Never thought of that, thanks! Do you feel this works consistently? So if they go attacking, trap inside can work?

i have limited knowledge about that but i don’t think trapping inside is the right choice for attacking opponents (also it depends on your tactic)

my choice is dropping the mentality to the defend when the opponent goes attacking 

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