Will you play Women's football in FM25?

[MagicHat]

Women's football is less popular than men's football and women's football in games is even less popular than women's football. 

I don't think there's any evidence that would prove both of those statements untrue...

[MagicHat]

13 minutes ago, Minuy600 said:

 

Heh??? It's only been a significant part of FIFA/EA FC for 2 years and it's the one example we have. And from that single example, it's proven that people have been really enjoying it big time on UT. Like no **** it's not at the same level as the men's game, there's far less included teams and players. But even then!

It's really funny, yet tragic, how people try to writhe around the 'uncomfortable' fact that the sport is on the rise and it's only now starting to get the recognition it deserves. Facts and logic? Did you get those from Twitter or something?

Women's football is less popular than men's football and women's football in games is even less popular than women's football. 

I don't think there's any evidence that would prove both of those statements untrue...

[Minuy600]

12 minutes ago, MagicHat said:

Women's football is less popular than men's football and women's football in games is even less popular than women's football. 

I don't think there's any evidence that would prove both of those statements untrue...

Which is why we need to promote it and encourage giving it a shot instead of putting it in a locker and claiming it is 'never going to work'. Seat belts were also nonsense back in the day, remember?

This is the kind of thought process that makes, mm, certain types of people, of which a lot are coincidentally men's football fans, so hard to take seriously on my end.

[jimbo22]

Nope, I have zero interest in it at all. There will be those out there that will play it and enjoy it, im happy for them but I wont spend anytime on it what so ever. Much like NBA 2k and FIFA/FC the womans game has been in that for a few years and ive zero interest in those mode too. Ultimately im not the target audience for these modes so my opinion on it doesnt really matter in anyway. 

Edited September 18 by jimbo22

[Nobby_McDonald]

8 hours ago, Grifty said:

I’d prefer them to focus on getting this ME with the big upgrade / change right rather than splitting resources to make the men’s and women’s ME slightly different to appease some keyboard warriors!

Surely part of getting the new match engine right is for there to be differences between the men and women where there should be.

[forameuss]

9 hours ago, MagicHat said:

This really isn't necessary. Ad Hominem is ineffective against reason.

Well, y ou get what you give.

9 hours ago, MagicHat said:

Sorry but i only deal with facts and logic. Fact 1. Womens football is significantly less popular than mens football. Womens football in games is even less popular.

Fact 2. Would adding another sex category of teams in FM have increased the workload of SI... 100% it will have.

 

See, if you're going to throw around mentions of "facts", then you've got to be sure they're, you know, true.  Women's football in real life has a smaller market, I'll give you t hat, but the rest?  nah.  As others have said, we've got one main example of women's football being included in a game.  After the expected noise when it was announced, it's widely regarded as one of the only positive things that developer has added to the game in a long time.  As a secondary, this very thread has shown that interest in real life isn't going to be directly proportional to the interest in the game.  I don't really have much interest in women's football in real life, but I'll absolutely be interested in an FM sense.

And "fact" 2, completely disregards that they've said from the start that this feature was funded separately and worked on by additional resources.  If you really want to rail against something taking resources away, I assume your next target will be, you know, the feature that is responsible for the delay?  Believe it when I see it.

[speck]

When the women's game was initially announced, I wondered if any match engine or other changes might make it easier to more accurately represent lower level men's leagues than is currently possible in FM. If so, that could be a bonus for the LLM players. I realize the women's game at the top level and a lower level men's game don't share a lot of the same characteristics, I was just thinking about the possibility of SI modifying the match engine/etc. to accommodate a wider range of attributes.

[CrowManager]

10 minutes ago, speck said:

When the women's game was initially announced, I wondered if any match engine or other changes might make it easier to more accurately represent lower level men's leagues than is currently possible in FM. If so, that could be a bonus for the LLM players. I realize the women's game at the top level and a lower level men's game don't share a lot of the same characteristics, I was just thinking about the possibility of SI modifying the match engine/etc. to accommodate a wider range of attributes.

Personally have considered this too, as it would be great, but based on the fact FM24 made lower league players perform significantly better than FM23. I find that players in FM23 make significantly more mistakes and it feels much more different level to level than FM24. As such, I don't think they'll do it, which is disappointing, understandable to an extent. Especially because at lower leagues the players are, not good.

I think it'd just be easier for them to not have to try to rate the women on the match engine and probably are just making a separate, but similar one which allows women to reach the top of the attributes instead of limiting them to peaking at lower numbers. Simpler learning curve, and maybe as such can make it feel different to Mens' soccer. Especially with goalie play.

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, speck said:

When the women's game was initially announced, I wondered if any match engine or other changes might make it easier to more accurately represent lower level men's leagues than is currently possible in FM. If so, that could be a bonus for the LLM players. I realize the women's game at the top level and a lower level men's game don't share a lot of the same characteristics, I was just thinking about the possibility of SI modifying the match engine/etc. to accommodate a wider range of attributes.

It's probably the aspect of this that doesn't get talked about as much, but you're absolutely right.  If they're delving into the match engine to make the women's game noticeably different, that was always going to be a unique opportunity (along with the Unity changes) to delve into the ME and give it a far closer look than they'd usually have in their normal yearly cycle.  That'll bring benefits across the board, not just the new side of things.

[Fat_Frank8]

15 hours ago, Minuy600 said:

Which is why we need to promote it and encourage giving it a shot instead of putting it in a locker and claiming it is 'never going to work'. Seat belts were also nonsense back in the day, remember?

This is the kind of thought process that makes, mm, certain types of people, of which a lot are coincidentally men's football fans, so hard to take seriously on my end.

Did you just compare women football in a game to seat belts? I’ve seen it all now. 😂

[Minuy600]

14 minutes ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

Did you just compare women football in a game to seat belts? I’ve seen it all now. 😂

Yes, I did. People would scoff at seat belts back in the day and now it's mainstream and mandatory, with a few stragglers here and there I suppose. Women's football is also on the way there in a similar fashion, people rebel against it as if it's an attack on their manlihood or whatever, but more and more people appreciate it for what it is, and I bet this issue will slowly dissipate over time... With obviously some people remaining who will never respect the work that goes into it.

Call me crazy or whatever, this is just how I think.

Edited September 19 by Minuy600

[davehanson]

2 hours ago, Minuy600 said:

Yes, I did. People would scoff at seat belts back in the day and now it's mainstream and mandatory, with a few stragglers here and there I suppose. Women's football is also on the way there in a similar fashion, people rebel against it as if it's an attack on their manlihood or whatever, but more and more people appreciate it for what it is, and I bet this issue will slowly dissipate over time... With obviously some people remaining who will never respect the work that goes into it.

Call me crazy or whatever, this is just how I think.

You are not crazy - but it is a bad analogy. 

Seatbelts are mandatory because they save lives - fact. They became law. There is no room for if someone likes them or not.

You say that women's football should be 'promoted and encouraged to give it a shot'. Totally agree with the promoted part - no issue, but the give it a shot - no, not if people don't want to. I find golf incredibly boring. I just don't understand it at all. Yet, millions of people worldwide play it and watch it. Does that mean I should give it a shot? 

If women's football becomes mainstream then good for it. I will be happy for those that play, that want to play and want to watch. But it doesn't mean I have to either enjoy or watch it. 

And I am not sure you should be implying it become mandatory either. 

[MagicHat]

20 hours ago, Minuy600 said:

Which is why we need to promote it and encourage giving it a shot instead of putting it in a locker and claiming it is 'never going to work'. Seat belts were also nonsense back in the day, remember?

This is the kind of thought process that makes, mm, certain types of people, of which a lot are coincidentally men's football fans, so hard to take seriously on my end.

The seat belt thing is a fallacy of bad analogy.

"This kind of thought process" is a fact based opinion that answers the question in the title thread. If you can present me any facts that women's football is more popular than men's or women's sports in games is more popular than women's sports in general i will change my opinion.

As an objective onlooker i'm always willing to change my opinion but not if it's based on subjective feelings or tastes of an individual.

If somethings popular it will become popular naturally. When men's football became popular it wasn't socially engineered, it was just a natural occurrence. That's how supply and demand works.

"certain types of people" again..., really not necessary,,, when you start throwing insults around because someone disagrees with you you're going into ad hominem territory. Bad arguments and fallacious reasoning are not the way to change people's opinions.

BTW... i actually watch Leeds women's on youtube because they stream the games on the Leeds official channel... so there's that...

[Lord Rowell]

5 hours ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

Did you just compare women football in a game to seat belts? I’ve seen it all now. 😂

Seems a perfectly reasonable analogy to me.

5 hours ago, Minuy600 said:

Yes, I did. People would scoff at seat belts back in the day and now it's mainstream and mandatory, with a few stragglers here and there I suppose. Women's football is also on the way there in a similar fashion, people rebel against it as if it's an attack on their manlihood or whatever, but more and more people appreciate it for what it is, and I bet this issue will slowly dissipate over time... With obviously some people remaining who will never respect the work that goes into it.

Call me crazy or whatever, this is just how I think.

Extending this to things that people thought would never catch on / go mainstream, I could make a big big list. But for now, I'll stick with "email", "internet shopping for clothes", and "movies where people talk i.e. talking pictures".

[Lord Rowell]

2 hours ago, davehanson said:

You are not crazy - but it is a bad analogy. 

Seatbelts are mandatory because they save lives - fact. They became law. There is no room for if someone likes them or not.

 

Except you're neglecting the fact that there was resistance to seat belt wearing being enforced by law. Over time, culture has changed.

Similar for the ban on drink-driving in the UK, which many at the time considered to be another infringement on their civil liberties. Again, whether law or now, attitudes / culture have changed.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, MagicHat said:

"This kind of thought process" is a fact based opinion that answers the question in the title thread. If you can present me any facts that women's football is more popular than men's or women's sports in games is more popular than women's sports in general i will change my opinion.

 

You've literally been given a clear example of a football game where adding women was generally well received, even when it was initially criticised.  Are you just purposefully ignoring that?

1 hour ago, MagicHat said:

BTW... i actually watch Leeds women's on youtube because they stream the games on the Leeds official channel... so there's that...

How very Kilroy-Silk of you..."some of my friends are women!"

Seriously, someone who really, genuinely just has no interest in something doesn't spend all this time trying to point out why.  They just get on with their lives.  Why do you seem to care this much whilst still talking about how much you don't care?

Edited September 19 by forameuss

[Fat_Frank8]

6 hours ago, Minuy600 said:

Yes, I did. People would scoff at seat belts back in the day and now it's mainstream and mandatory, with a few stragglers here and there I suppose. Women's football is also on the way there in a similar fashion, people rebel against it as if it's an attack on their manlihood or whatever, but more and more people appreciate it for what it is, and I bet this issue will slowly dissipate over time... With obviously some people remaining who will never respect the work that goes into it.

Call me crazy or whatever, this is just how I think.

You expect managing in womens football in FM to save lives and become mandatory any time soon?  

[Fat_Frank8]

1 hour ago, Lord Rowell said:

Seems a perfectly reasonable analogy to me.

Extending this to things that people thought would never catch on / go mainstream, I could make a big big list. But for now, I'll stick with "email", "internet shopping for clothes", and "movies where people talk i.e. talking pictures".

This is fantastic. Seat belts, emails and movies.

[Lord Rowell]

9 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I don't know, I'm not interested in it as of now, but who knows, I'm open to it. Maybe more chances to manage important clubs.

Though, maybe reputation would take a hit by leaving Juventus men for Barcelona women? That would just not do. I don't know how can SI manage the whole reputaion affair.

Certainly I would prefer the international football option.

No option to vote for me.

Except that SI clearly explained the reason for the temporary removal of international management (international football still exists), which has nothing to do with the addition of women's football.

So, you don't need another option to vote.

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

This is fantastic. Seat belts, emails and movies.

It is isn't it?
Of course, all because, in discussion, one person made an analogy about how trends etc. change over time.

People then decided not to stick to the issue, but instead go after the analogy, when it was blindingly obvious what the person was getting at, however perfect / imperfect the analogy was.

[Minuy600]

I really didn't expect this discussion to go so sour over here too :/ I just don't understand the need to be so loud about your disapproval about an aspect that's been announced for years and has already improved one franchise. The mods have already mentioned so many times that this had nothing to do with the removal of international management too- it's a sign of the times we're in that that gets blatantly ignored and some folks continue to go after those in support of it.

I could rant all day about how corrupted and unenjoyable the upper echelons of men's football are at this point, but I am going to be the better man and leave it at that.

[Lord Rowell]

4 minutes ago, Minuy600 said:

I really didn't expect this discussion to go so sour over here too :/ I just don't understand the need to be so loud about your disapproval about an aspect that's been announced for years and has already improved one franchise. The mods have already mentioned so many times that this had nothing to do with the removal of international management too- it's a sign of the times we're in that that gets blatantly ignored and some folks continue to go after those in support of it.

I could rant all day about how corrupted and unenjoyable the upper echelons of men's football are at this point, but I am going to be the better man and leave it at that.

I do take a little comfort in the fact that the number of people who are so loud is actually relatively small. However, they do make a lot of disproportionate noise on the issues.

I also am actually quite positive about the poll results. OK, 2/3 rds won't play (of those, many don't have an issue with women's football in FM), but 1/3rd WILL PLAY - that's actually quite a significant proportion.

[davehanson]

24 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

It is isn't it?
Of course, all because, in discussion, one person made an analogy about how trends etc. change over time.

People then decided not to stick to the issue, but instead go after the analogy, when it was blindingly obvious what the person was getting at, however perfect / imperfect the analogy was.

But he hasn't made a point about 'trends'. He is comparing something that is mandated in law to a form of entertainment that may, or may not, grow to be as big as the men's game. Hence, it is a very bad analogy. 

 

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, davehanson said:

But he hasn't made a point about 'trends'. He is comparing something that is mandated in law to a form of entertainment that may, or may not, grow to be as big as the men's game. Hence, it is a very bad analogy. 

 

So why not suggest some better ones if you think that's the case, rather than just criticising?

Edited September 19 by Lord Rowell
corrected punctuation

[davehanson]

Just now, Lord Rowell said:

So why not suggest some better ones if you think that's the case, rather than just criticising?

I don't need to. It wasn't me that made the point, why do you need to compare  FM/Womens football to anything else? I don't see the point? It is what it is now - at this point in time and in the future it may or may not be better/worse/bigger/smaller - nobody knows. We can all assume that it will continue to grow and reach a higher standard than it is now. But that may take decades - just like mens football did. 

[tezcatlipoca665]

I voted no, but I mean initially at least, and it's because I don't follow women's football. This game will probably end up being a good introduction so I'm not scrambling around Wikipedia and highlight clips trying to figure out who's who and what's what. In saying that, I'm not sure if I'll even buy FM25 unless there's clear evidence that both the transfer and squad building aspects of the game have been improved, but if I do, I'll probably check out the women's leagues some time further along playing the game when I feel exploring something new. Hopefully it's different enough from the men's game that it doesn't feel like I'm just learning new player names and that's it.

[Minotti]

No! I don’t watch it so it would be pointless to play it! I just don’t see something new that it would add to playing the Men’s version! Will I get to see better match engine? More variations of how goals are scored ? That’s the changes that SI need to focus on in general! So I don’t see what it would add to have women’s football.

[Rambler]

Absolutely no interest in this at all.

[Braveheart84]

What leagues will there be in women's football? We want it to be the Turkish 3rd League.

[Braveheart84]

As Istanbul Mesudiyespor women's football team, we want to be in the game. We also want women's football coaches to be included in the game.

https://www.tff.org/Default.aspx?pageID=219&antID=1896929

https://www.tff.org/Default.aspx?pageID=28&kulupID=2859

[Brother Ben]

I'll definitely give it a go.  I've said before on here that I think a lot of people have it the wrong way around as I believe that games like EAFC and FM can help to grow women's football.

Think of how much you now know about football generally from playing this game over the years.  Heck its even helped my geography.  Hopefully this will be true of the women's game.  Maybe it will even turn some of the people who are on the fence about it into fans.  Who knows?

[mp_87]

Probably not, would be more interested in doing an international tournament with women's national team when that gets put back in the game.

However, despite doing a pretty varied number of saves in my FM experience, there are many leagues/nations in the existing game I have no interest in and have never managed - Indonesian second division anyone? - doesn't mean I think they should be taken out. Any adding to the game & footballing world and opening up leagues - on the men's or women's side of the game - is a good thing in my opinion.

Obviously the onus is on SI to get the implementation right, and based in reality in terms of how the "two worlds" interact and co-exist, but then that is true with every feature in the game.

[HUNT3R]

If it were a separate game or game mode, not a chance. Since it will be part of the same world as the men's game, I might, depending on how my save goes.

[jimbo22]

5 hours ago, mp_87 said:

Obviously the onus is on SI to get the implementation right, and based in reality in terms of how the "two worlds" interact and co-exist, but then that is true with every feature in the game.

This is key. When you load up the game it will load players to teams no matter the size of the database. Its my hope that the choice is there to have nothing from the womans side pop up in my game. I dont need news on it, I dont need players taking up space in the data base I dont need to be told that the womans FA Cup final is a fixture that day.

SI could kill this debate stone dead with information on how they are implementing it into the game. Im sure we'll get it at some point and if not we'll get it after release from people that play it early on. 

[jimbo22]

1 minute ago, jimbo22 said:

This is key. When you load up the game it will load players to teams no matter the size of the database. Its my hope that the choice is there to have nothing from the womans side pop up in my game. I dont need news on it, I dont need players taking up space in the data base I dont need to be told that the womans FA Cup final is a fixture that day.

My hope is that its a click option and if its not clicked then nothing pops up for me much like the NBA and the WNBA are completely different things in NBA 2k, I dont think thats how it will work though...

SI could kill this debate stone dead with information on how they are implementing it into the game. Im sure we'll get it at some point and if not we'll get it after release from people that play it early on. 

 

Edited September 20 by jimbo22

[Nikki]

On 19/09/2024 at 18:49, Minuy600 said:

I really didn't expect this discussion to go so sour over here too :/ I just don't understand the need to be so loud about your disapproval about an aspect that's been announced for years and has already improved one franchise. The mods have already mentioned so many times that this had nothing to do with the removal of international management too- it's a sign of the times we're in that that gets blatantly ignored and some folks continue to go after those in support of it.

I could rant all day about how corrupted and unenjoyable the upper echelons of men's football are at this point, but I am going to be the better man and leave it at that.

I wish I could be surprised at this point, but at this point it's a predictable pattern. Worst I've seen was when female avatars were about to be added to F1 games. A small group managed to get every single thread discussing the topic locked by derailing it. That franchise wasn't somehow ruined by including women, and this one won't be either, but there will be a lot of noise until we get there.

Frankly, I think its diversity has always been one of FM's strong points. Sure, the biggest leagues will be getting the most attention, but I don't think the amount of people that would be satisfied with only having access to those few leagues is as high as some might have us think.

Edited September 20 by Nikki
grammar

[Mr Tonio]

I would, i'm actually looking forward to it. I hope it's well implamented and have a really different flavor than man's. But without the national team it has lost a lot of its appeal. This is for me the main problem, because IRL international women football is amazing. It's a real big shame.

[spursfan]

I use a female avatar (and my usual male avatars) for the first time in FM24. 
She's doing very well, better than her flailing male counterparts (who have been sacked on numerous occasions for horrendous reasons in past FMs).

Definitely playing women's league, will be my first save in FM25.

[playerup01]

The amount of hate on a mode is disturbing. Guess I'm one of the few people excited to see a fresh aspect introduced. Makes exploring football more interesting. Think of it as free advertising for the women's sport. 

Play it or not, don't hate it just because you aren't interested on the other side of football. 

[Lord Rowell]

24 minutes ago, playerup01 said:

The amount of hate on a mode is disturbing. Guess I'm one of the few people excited to see a fresh aspect introduced. Makes exploring football more interesting. Think of it as free advertising for the women's sport. 

Play it or not, don't hate it just because you aren't interested on the other side of football. 

I'm excited too! You're not alone. I'm sure many others are as well, and will play women's leagues, the data will come out and it'll be positive.
 

Edited Monday at 02:18 by Lord Rowell

[MorrisseyMuse]

I applaud SI for introducing womens football, but my interests have always been in the mens game.  It'll be interesting to see how SI approach the attributes though, seeing female players as good as Maradona in EA FC shakes the realism a bit for me! Lol

[SlobaFMB]

There’s nothing funnier than grown men playing video games while whining about the introduction of something in Football Manager that fully reflects reality – women’s football. I give my full support to the SI team for this, and I even think it's overdue.

Misogyny should never be welcome anywhere.

As for whether I’ll play with a women’s team in FM25, I’m not sure yet. I’d love to, but we still don’t know which leagues will be included or how all the data and other important information will look. I’m definitely considering one of the Serbian clubs (except Spartak Subotica and Red Star/Crvena zvezda) and, as an alternative, Blackburn Rovers WFC.

Edited Monday at 12:23 by SlobaFMB

[forameuss]

2 hours ago, MorrisseyMuse said:

I applaud SI for introducing womens football, but my interests have always been in the mens game.  It'll be interesting to see how SI approach the attributes though, seeing female players as good as Maradona in EA FC shakes the realism a bit for me! Lol

EA FC were in a difficult position.  They wanted to have them in FUT - and they were absolutely right to do so it turns out - but if you only have one scale of attributes, then women are naturally going to be lower down that for physical attributes at least.  Then the cards become like 95% of the ones already in the game and are effectively pointless.  No-ones going to use them in the same way that no-one would use anything rated lower than the current power curve.  They had to do it the way they did.

With FM, it's different, but only slightly.  I expect visually the top players in the women's game will still look similar to the top players in the men's game in terms of pure attributes, but they're completely separate entities.  20 strength, for example, will mean different things if it's on a female player, than male. 

Of course, won't stop people having aneurisms that Johnny and Jenny Shooty both have the same attributes.

[MorrisseyMuse]

Yeah, I totally understand EA doing it, but FM is supposed to be more simulation based.

 

It will be interesting to see if SI create the female database in kind of it's own universe, with players reaching Messi levels.l; or if they keep it in context with the mens' db.