Formation reverting midmatch

[elvolante]

Changing formation after the start of a match destroys your set piece tactics and sometimes, some players move back to their previous position like subbing off a CB for ST and dragging the player forward only to find him in the middle of defence again for sometime.

 

I hope this gets fixed in FM25 because I'm scared to tweak formations midgame or after a red card.

[Marc Vaughan]

On 18/09/2024 at 10:09, elvolante said:

Changing formation after the start of a match destroys your set piece tactics and sometimes, some players move back to their previous position like subbing off a CB for ST and dragging the player forward only to find him in the middle of defence again for sometime.

I hope this gets fixed in FM25 because I'm scared to tweak formations midgame or after a red card.

If you can figure out how/why this happens for you please let me know (video?) as that sounds really frustrating and I feel for you - but its not something I've ever seen personally which makes me think you're doing something that I'm not with regards to 'how' you do your changes.

(I'll keep an eye out for it and ask our QA to do the same, but obviously if we get more information it'll help us track things down)

[RSeven]

On 20/09/2024 at 23:50, Marc Vaughan said:

If you can figure out how/why this happens for you please let me know (video?) as that sounds really frustrating and I feel for you - but its not something I've ever seen personally which makes me think you're doing something that I'm not with regards to 'how' you do your changes.

(I'll keep an eye out for it and ask our QA to do the same, but obviously if we get more information it'll help us track things down)

Hi Marc, 

Change formation will destroy your settings of set pieces. This is very easy to repeat by your team. And we can not adjust our settings of set pieces during match, this BUG last several years. Any plan for this?

Edited Tuesday at 15:13 by RSeven

[Marc Vaughan]

1 hour ago, RSeven said:

Hi Marc, 

Change formation will destroy your settings of set pieces. This is very easy to repeat by your team. And we can not adjust our settings of set pieces during match, this BUG last several years. Any plan for this?

The reasons that this might cause oddities is because the set-pieces are mapped to player positions and in some tactical setup that might differ for example (and purely off the top of my head - ie. don't hold me to this exact index mapping, its purely for demonstration purposes):
442 -
0-GK, 1-DL, 2-DR, 3-DC,, 4DC, 5-ML, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MR, 9-FC, 10FC

Whereas a 352 might be -
0-GK, 1-DC, 2-DC, 3-DC,, 4DML, 5-DMR, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MC, 9-FC, 10FC

If you switch from one to the other then players will shift positions, but the underlying set-piece setup will still map onto the positions from the original tactic (ie. whomever is set in slot 1 which was originally a DL will continue to do that task, but he's now a DC etc.

Changing a setup radically makes retaining a set-piece consistency awkward for this reason, simply put the characteristics in the positions you had set for the set-piece have changed and this is why it seems wrong. If you drag the existing players on the pitch rather than changing the entire formation I would have expected you'd not have this issue.

(which isn't to excuse the behavior - I agree this shouldn't happen, just trying to explain why it does and am currently wracking my brain to try and figure out a nicer way to handle this)

[RSeven]

8 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

The reasons that this might cause oddities is because the set-pieces are mapped to player positions and in some tactical setup that might differ for example (and purely off the top of my head - ie. don't hold me to this exact index mapping, its purely for demonstration purposes):
442 -
0-GK, 1-DL, 2-DR, 3-DC,, 4DC, 5-ML, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MR, 9-FC, 10FC

Whereas a 352 might be -
0-GK, 1-DC, 2-DC, 3-DC,, 4DML, 5-DMR, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MC, 9-FC, 10FC

If you switch from one to the other then players will shift positions, but the underlying set-piece setup will still map onto the positions from the original tactic (ie. whomever is set in slot 1 which was originally a DL will continue to do that task, but he's now a DC etc.

Changing a setup radically makes retaining a set-piece consistency awkward for this reason, simply put the characteristics in the positions you had set for the set-piece have changed and this is why it seems wrong. If you drag the existing players on the pitch rather than changing the entire formation I would have expected you'd not have this issue.

(which isn't to excuse the behavior - I agree this shouldn't happen, just trying to explain why it does and am currently wracking my brain to try and figure out a nicer way to handle this)

Hi Marc, thanks for clarification.

1. Two examples.

A. If I move my WB at DMLR position to DLR position, no impact to set pieces.

B. If I move my CM at MC position to DMC position, the set pieces will be break. This is no sense, because this is a very common and useful change of formation. 

2. You have not mentioned why we can not adjust set pieces during match this time.. I remember you had explained once. But youv will leave this issue forever?

[Marc Vaughan]

10 hours ago, RSeven said:

2. You have not mentioned why we can not adjust set pieces during match this time.. I remember you had explained once. But youv will leave this issue forever?

Its a complicated issue - there is a plan afoot to resolve this, however its not a short-term thing and requires several steps to undertake.

The issue is that the game was originally created using the match engine from our earlier products (CM3 series) and then we also added in an older variant of the FM PC match engine (what we've called the 'Enhanced Match Engine') - the two use different tactical setups and the game ports between the two behind the scenes so that the user doesn't know and have to care about geeky things ... but it makes it rather more complex and thus awkward to do things like in-match set-piece changes.

(so apologies for this restriction, I understand fully that from a users perspective its annoying and it is something I intend to resolve in the future, but that will require removal of the original match engine as its first step (and up until recently a LOT of devices were still reliant upon that) ... on the other hand I would also argue somewhat that in real-life a manager can't do hugely complex set-piece changes in match)

PS - Thanks for the information on the bug, I'll see if there is anything I can do to mitigate against this.

[elvolante]

On 20/09/2024 at 16:50, Marc Vaughan said:

If you can figure out how/why this happens for you please let me know (video?) as that sounds really frustrating and I feel for you - but its not something I've ever seen personally which makes me think you're doing something that I'm not with regards to 'how' you do your changes.

(I'll keep an eye out for it and ask our QA to do the same, but obviously if we get more information it'll help us track things down)

For example, I bring on a CF for a CB and drag the CB to a CF position only to have him start out as a CB at a goalkick

[elvolante]

19 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

The reasons that this might cause oddities is because the set-pieces are mapped to player positions and in some tactical setup that might differ for example (and purely off the top of my head - ie. don't hold me to this exact index mapping, its purely for demonstration purposes):
442 -
0-GK, 1-DL, 2-DR, 3-DC,, 4DC, 5-ML, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MR, 9-FC, 10FC

Whereas a 352 might be -
0-GK, 1-DC, 2-DC, 3-DC,, 4DML, 5-DMR, 6-MC, 7-MC, 8-MC, 9-FC, 10FC

If you switch from one to the other then players will shift positions, but the underlying set-piece setup will still map onto the positions from the original tactic (ie. whomever is set in slot 1 which was originally a DL will continue to do that task, but he's now a DC etc.

Changing a setup radically makes retaining a set-piece consistency awkward for this reason, simply put the characteristics in the positions you had set for the set-piece have changed and this is why it seems wrong. If you drag the existing players on the pitch rather than changing the entire formation I would have expected you'd not have this issue.

(which isn't to excuse the behavior - I agree this shouldn't happen, just trying to explain why it does and am currently wracking my brain to try and figure out a nicer way to handle this)

Dragging the player on the pitch is worse because you wouldn't even begin to understand the numbering. Especially if you're dragging a player from defence to attack or vice versa or changing from a back 4 to a back 5

[elvolante]

3 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

Its a complicated issue - there is a plan afoot to resolve this, however its not a short-term thing and requires several steps to undertake.

The issue is that the game was originally created using the match engine from our earlier products (CM3 series) and then we also added in an older variant of the FM PC match engine (what we've called the 'Enhanced Match Engine') - the two use different tactical setups and the game ports between the two behind the scenes so that the user doesn't know and have to care about geeky things ... but it makes it rather more complex and thus awkward to do things like in-match set-piece changes.

(so apologies for this restriction, I understand fully that from a users perspective its annoying and it is something I intend to resolve in the future, but that will require removal of the original match engine as its first step (and up until recently a LOT of devices were still reliant upon that) ... on the other hand I would also argue somewhat that in real-life a manager can't do hugely complex set-piece changes in match)

PS - Thanks for the information on the bug, I'll see if there is anything I can do to mitigate against this.

It's not hugely changing the set-piece routine, it's making sure your short WB you put outside the 18 doesn't replace your tall CB who is supposed to be marking a tall player.

Edited Wednesday at 14:59 by elvolante

[Marc Vaughan]

1 minute ago, elvolante said:

It's not hugely changing the set-piece routine is making sure your short WB doesn't you put outside the 18 doesn't replace your tall CB who is supposed to be marking a tall player.

Yeah I agree with that and (fingers crossed) that I might be able to rectify, its on my list of things to look into.