Should we get new data updates for FM24?

[jcafcwbb]

As FM25 is delayed until March and I cannot see any mention of updates should SI Games offer them?

I understand the reason behind the delay but it would be a nice gesture to have a database update for the transfer window just gone - I presume that the data would have been compiled for FM25. There could also be the usual January update for the next round of signings. Part of the reason we buy for the new games is for the different squads.

If someone wants to tell me if this would not be possible technically then that would be noted.

Edited Thursday at 15:45 by jcafcwbb
Typos

[gggfunk]

I agree that we should get the update now, but I'm pretty sure we won't.

[forameuss]

What exactly would be the point from SI's perspective?  They know there are parties out there who already offer updates for nothing, and I suspect the people using them wouldn't really be able to notice enough differences to make it worth actually paying for it.

You know what would make it financially viable for SI though?  Making it impossible for people to make their own updates in future.  I'm sure everyone will accept that with no ill feeling whatsoever.

[DavutOzkan]

If there was any plans to do this, it would have been in the announcement. We all know that they should, but they won't. They would have cancelled 25 altogether if they weren't obligated to contractually release one.

[jcafcwbb]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

What exactly would be the point from SI's perspective?  They know there are parties out there who already offer updates for nothing, and I suspect the people using them wouldn't really be able to notice enough differences to make it worth actually paying for it.

You know what would make it financially viable for SI though?  Making it impossible for people to make their own updates in future.  I'm sure everyone will accept that with no ill feeling whatsoever.

The console version does not allow you to import outside databases. 

[crarfc]

of course they should! 

[dosh]

SI announced the "transition to a new engine" back in June 2023, even before the release of FM24. Despite the numerous bugs at the launch of FM24 and the lack of significant game feature updates in the major 24.2 and 24.3 patches, users had to tolerate this situation, likely because resources and personnel had been diverted to the FM25 project. I think FM24 users deserve a 24.5 major patch with database updates, results from the 23/24 season and promotion/relegation applied, and the option to start in summer 2024.

[gggfunk]

Do you think there are any licensing obligations that would forbid SI to release another update for FM24? Because this is the only reason for not doing it, I think we really deserve to get an official update as a compensation for the big delay.

[vrig]

There quite obviously should be one. Faith in them is at an all time low now, and on the off chance they actually do get FM25 out by March 31st, they're gonna need a lot of good will to get anything like the number of sales they were expecting. 

But they don't really seem to care about good will, and will probably bank on people using third party updates so they can claim that FM24 was so good it had people playing for a year and a half on its own merit. Pats on the back all round and onto the next mess we go.

[jimbo22]

Y'all dont know about sortitoutsi? 

[jcafcwbb]

Again there needs to be an official one as you cannot use unofficial ones on the console version.

It seems that some on here do not care about the people who bought the game on console. I'm-alright-Jack-mentality.

[DavutOzkan]

6 minutes ago, jimbo22 said:

Y'all dont know about sortitoutsi? 

It doesn't update ratings though. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

I want updated ratings made by the official researchers, not a fan made update of squads where the players and stats are the same as previous years. There are a lot of players that should be updated after the performances they had in 2024. Also, we want to see the new players coming into FM, as there are a lot of 16 yo debuting in Europe

[jimbo22]

12 minutes ago, jcafcwbb said:

Again there needs to be an official one as you cannot use unofficial ones on the console version.

It seems that some on here do not care about the people who bought the game on console. I'm-alright-Jack-mentality.

Thats absolutely a fair point and one that I never considered because I dont play it on console. 

[Nickg07]

Sort it out SI.

 

You know what you've done.

[matt_forest]

When Miles first started talking about the issues with developing the new game I thought they'd be better shelving it and just releasing an update pack for FM24 with correct dates, promotions/ relegations/ transfers/ etc.... instead of releasing a broken game. It'd make far more sense than bringing out FM25 in March only to then release FM26 in November of the same year. Who's gonna be buying BOTH of them????

[ajw10]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

What exactly would be the point from SI's perspective?  They know there are parties out there who already offer updates for nothing, and I suspect the people using them wouldn't really be able to notice enough differences to make it worth actually paying for it.

You know what would make it financially viable for SI though?  Making it impossible for people to make their own updates in future.  I'm sure everyone will accept that with no ill feeling whatsoever.

To get people to continue playing their game? As a goodwill gesture?

[jcw163]

Not gonna happen friends

[saihtam]

2 hours ago, gggfunk said:

I agree that we should get the update now, but I'm pretty sure we won't.

Never know. Dont think the DB structures are so different from version to version, maybe a modder can give input. Maybe some legal stuff needs to be ironed out and then make the quick port for FM24.

Lets wait and hope for the best.

[Dropveter]

We should get a official data update yes, with option to start a game in July 2024.

 

Perhaps they are working on it on the background, if it is possible with licenses etc, and it can be released begin of November.

 

 

 

[silentwars]

30 minutes ago, Dropveter said:

We should get a official data update yes, with option to start a game in July 2024.

 

Perhaps they are working on it on the background, if it is possible with licenses etc, and it can be released begin of November.

 

 

 

I doubt that - simply for the reason less people will buy FM25 when it's released if they have a full update for the current game. Some of the community's updates are okay for transfers & manager changes, but they don't usually change things like attribute updates, club staff, budgets, wages, contract lengths, correct fixture lists etc ... 

Edited Thursday at 18:38 by silentwars

[santy001]

As a researcher one of the barriers is the constant evolution of the database we contribute and how things are modified for the game moving forward. Things change within the database to support new features, or work differently to encompass a differing approach to how that data is utilised by the game. While there has been the backwards compatibility to bring older data forward it'd likely be a much bigger issue to send newer data back. 

[Dropveter]

44 minutes ago, silentwars said:

I doubt that - simply for the reason less people will buy FM25 when it's released if they have a full update for the current game. Some of the community's updates are okay for transfers & manager changes, but they don't usually change things like attribute updates, club staff, budgets, wages, contract lengths, correct fixture lists etc ... 

Fair point yes, it is also more my hope then what i really expect.

[Taliten Crow]

Sharing my post here too, as this seems like the most appropriate thread:
 

I believe a 24.5 patch with a transfer update should be feasible and highly appreciated, as mods are not as good as official patches. Since they already have the database ready for FM 25, importing it into FM 24 should not require much effort from SI. I wonder if making the season start in July 2024 with a patch would be troublesome (I doubt it, but who knows?).

While I understand that SI might view a patch as potentially detrimental to FM 25’s future sales, it could also be a great and appreciated PR move that would positively impact public opinion about the company. This is something they can assess better than we can.

Maybe if we become POLITELY vocal about the patch, it will happen. Fingers crossed, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[jscjr]

3 hours ago, matt_forest said:

It'd make far more sense than bringing out FM25 in March only to then release FM26 in November of the same year. Who's gonna be buying BOTH of them????

Well . . . the last time this happened (CM4 to CM 03/04), lots of people purchased both.

[Sandro90]

Save your honor and follow the voice of the community. Release update, fix a few bugs (like the ones with no logos on the shirts, which you ignored) and calmly make FM 26 with international management and visible weight value. You will get some money and a lot of time. People will be happy. Offer players with pre-orders, as compensation a refund and free update. It's a win-win situation.

Edited Thursday at 21:49 by Sandro90

[CaptainSa]

8 minutes ago, Sandro90 said:

weight

lol

[Sandro90]

38 minutes ago, CaptainSa said:

lol

They said that the weight values will be invisible. LOL.

[CaptainSa]

2 minutes ago, Sandro90 said:

They said that the weight values will be invisible. LOL.

I'm aware.

It's just funny to want it back. 48% of players in the database have a weight of 0, meaning the game randomly generates them a weight. The other 52% of players have weight figures that might be accurate. Or might be taken off a random website not affiliated with the player or their club with an unsourced number. It's just a silly - and meaningless given it has no impact on the game - thing.

[cleiria]

6 horas atrás, dosh disse:

... I think FM24 users deserve a 24.5 major patch with database updates, ... , and the option to start in summer 2024.

[Mobius]

SI can't even meet their own self-imposed delayed deadlines making a game with less features than previous years.

And you expect them to go the extra mile to make up for continuing to disappoint their loyal fanbase? Ha. 

[R0ca]

Just download custom DB? Why wait for SI?

[skyzekaizo]

Players are identified with an unique ID in the database, and I doubt that the game attributes (except weight) will change from FM24 to FM25. In the eventuality where the IDs of players change from one year to the other (which I doubt even more as it just adds unnecessary work), it would take maybe 4 lines of code to match the IDs between the FM25 and FM24 databases.

All in all the adaptation would take at most 15 lines of code and it could be done so easily, the only two reasons why they would not release it are:

- they fear the sales repercussions on FM25 as people would prefer to download the DLC and wait for FM26, even though they had no qualms about pushing 2m+ people to buy a product that does NOT exist.

- the FM25 database does not exist because the game does not exist and therefore there is nothing to adapt and sell as a DLC. There is literally no reason for the database to not be ready when the game was supposed to launch in november unless the game isn't at a stage where the developers need the database to make progress, i.e the game is still an idea on paper and they tried to sell an inexistent product to 2m+ people.

[santy001]

50 minutes ago, skyzekaizo said:

All in all the adaptation would take at most 15 lines of code and it could be done so easily

You're talking utter nonsense and so ignorant to the situation with the data that you haven't even realised weights still are in the background as SI have mentioned. 

The way in which data is used between FM's differs in a number of different ways, research data is provided in ways that even in the research team we don't know how it will be fully utilised. But an example is Ambition. How it is used in the game changes over time, it now plays a part in things like players decisions on when to retire, it has an effect on how much a player pushes themselves in training. These things were different in the past. 

Previously the weighting for pace and acceleration changed massively between one version of FM and the next, to fit with other ME changes. The research team provides data to the parameters SI gives us with the next FM in mind. 

It's very likely that in order to offer this kind of update SI would have to ask the entire research team to go back to the last data extract for FM24 and begin their work over again in the confines of what would work for FM24. As much as I like the FM series, I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm volunteering double the amount of time I currently do. I might as well just do some overtime at work and get paid for it instead.

As poor and frustrating as it is for FM to be delayed, it isn't really suitable to pretend there's an easy solution. It wouldn't really be suitable to ask the voluntary research team to step in and try to help cater to this either. 

[skyzekaizo]

 

27 minutes ago, santy001 said:

You're talking utter nonsense and so ignorant to the situation with the data that you haven't even realised weights still are in the background as SI have mentioned. 

The way in which data is used between FM's differs in a number of different ways, research data is provided in ways that even in the research team we don't know how it will be fully utilised. But an example is Ambition. How it is used in the game changes over time, it now plays a part in things like players decisions on when to retire, it has an effect on how much a player pushes themselves in training. These things were different in the past. 

Previously the weighting for pace and acceleration changed massively between one version of FM and the next, to fit with other ME changes. The research team provides data to the parameters SI gives us with the next FM in mind. 

It's very likely that in order to offer this kind of update SI would have to ask the entire research team to go back to the last data extract for FM24 and begin their work over again in the confines of what would work for FM24. As much as I like the FM series, I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm volunteering double the amount of time I currently do. I might as well just do some overtime at work and get paid for it instead.

As poor and frustrating as it is for FM to be delayed, it isn't really suitable to pretend there's an easy solution. It wouldn't really be suitable to ask the voluntary research team to step in and try to help cater to this either. 

Mate, it's a spreadsheet. If the data for fm25 already exists somewhere (which I doubt), in the worst possible case scenario it would take a developper couple of hours to come with a quick fix. There would br no need for any researcher to make any kind of extra work.

[DominicForza]

6 hours ago, santy001 said:

As a researcher one of the barriers is the constant evolution of the database we contribute and how things are modified for the game moving forward. Things change within the database to support new features, or work differently to encompass a differing approach to how that data is utilised by the game. While there has been the backwards compatibility to bring older data forward it'd likely be a much bigger issue to send newer data back. 

thank you for this.  I understand why SI likes to keep a "veil" over much of the inner workings of the game to aid in the suspension of disbelief that its NOT just a giant spreadsheet with equations that lead to percentages and random "dice rolls."

I would like to know more about how the game actually works, but I get it. 

I greatly appreciate when we get a little info about how the game and the behind the scenes stuff works.  

I'd like to hear more, within of course what you're allowed to divulge.  

Thanks again.

[tomtuck01]

8 hours ago, Sandro90 said:

They said that the weight values will be invisible. LOL.

And why is it a big deal in the slightest?

[Proz]

An easy solution would be to just have a new starting date at 1st July 2024 with an update of results to 30/6/2024 (league ranking, winners of competitions etc)

The update for players, staff etc can be easily found somewhere else.

 

[paddypower]

7 hours ago, santy001 said:

You're talking utter nonsense and so ignorant to the situation with the data that you haven't even realised weights still are in the background as SI have mentioned. 

The way in which data is used between FM's differs in a number of different ways, research data is provided in ways that even in the research team we don't know how it will be fully utilised. But an example is Ambition. How it is used in the game changes over time, it now plays a part in things like players decisions on when to retire, it has an effect on how much a player pushes themselves in training. These things were different in the past. 

Previously the weighting for pace and acceleration changed massively between one version of FM and the next, to fit with other ME changes. The research team provides data to the parameters SI gives us with the next FM in mind. 

It's very likely that in order to offer this kind of update SI would have to ask the entire research team to go back to the last data extract for FM24 and begin their work over again in the confines of what would work for FM24. As much as I like the FM series, I don't ever want to get to the point where I'm volunteering double the amount of time I currently do. I might as well just do some overtime at work and get paid for it instead.

As poor and frustrating as it is for FM to be delayed, it isn't really suitable to pretend there's an easy solution. It wouldn't really be suitable to ask the voluntary research team to step in and try to help cater to this either. 

Is there a change log? Source control?

I'm a software engineer myself, this obviously isn't a hand wave and 15 lines of code thing. But it's not impossible either.

I've been in situations before where databases have gotten FUBAR'd. The dev team have always been able to sort it. It might take a week or two, and some very vigorous testing. But it's manageable.

At the end of the day it's update to numbers. Some of those updates are only applicable to fm25. Write a script to sort it.

[santy001]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

Is there a change log? Source control?

What I see from the researcher side has fantastic auditing and breakdowns for us to use. The situation isn't that the data is damaged/compromised/messed up due to a careless command being executed etc. The database SI have is now an FM25 database. It extracts for the unity gamebase. That in itself could prove to be a barrier. 

Even if it isn't and it all extracts and imports in the same format to use a hypothetical example of something that's not likely to change and certainly wouldn't in the way I outline. Imagine the CA/PA system had actually been removed this year or changed so substantially that there's no direct correlation between the 0-200 scale and what comes next, SI have embraced some weird system called strength of mind, strength of body, strength of soul and a whole bunch of attributes are combined, new attributes exist etc. The player progression models have been overhauled to work under this new system.

Every individual in the database would have had their attributes to change to conform to this new system, its limitations. Attributes to help with the new progression etc. There wouldn't really be an easy way to take that back. Maybe freeing up a few devs to figure out how to "best" do it with an automated script where X under the new system roughly equals to Y and Z under the old system could work but then it's a lot more haphazard and could result in a huge number of errors that need to be resolved to prevent attribute snapshotting upon starting the game. 

 

[kopfan1977]

50 minutes ago, santy001 said:

What I see from the researcher side has fantastic auditing and breakdowns for us to use. The situation isn't that the data is damaged/compromised/messed up due to a careless command being executed etc. The database SI have is now an FM25 database. It extracts for the unity gamebase. That in itself could prove to be a barrier. 

Even if it isn't and it all extracts and imports in the same format to use a hypothetical example of something that's not likely to change and certainly wouldn't in the way I outline. Imagine the CA/PA system had actually been removed this year or changed so substantially that there's no direct correlation between the 0-200 scale and what comes next, SI have embraced some weird system called strength of mind, strength of body, strength of soul and a whole bunch of attributes are combined, new attributes exist etc. The player progression models have been overhauled to work under this new system.

Every individual in the database would have had their attributes to change to conform to this new system, its limitations. Attributes to help with the new progression etc. There wouldn't really be an easy way to take that back. Maybe freeing up a few devs to figure out how to "best" do it with an automated script where X under the new system roughly equals to Y and Z under the old system could work but then it's a lot more haphazard and could result in a huge number of errors that need to be resolved to prevent attribute snapshotting upon starting the game. 

 

 

Perfect explanation.

 

I sat thinking it would be nice to see SI come out and offer us players an updated database + patch to change start date of a 'New season' but knew deep down it would take a lot of effort when they are already concentrating their manpower on working through the issues they face with the new era of FM.

 

It would be like us trying to extract the data from CM0102 to use in FM.  2 different games, Different engines etc. It's just not feasible. As much as we would like it to be so.

[LeSoleil]

hace 1 hora, santy001 dijo:

What I see from the researcher side has fantastic auditing and breakdowns for us to use. The situation isn't that the data is damaged/compromised/messed up due to a careless command being executed etc. The database SI have is now an FM25 database. It extracts for the unity gamebase. That in itself could prove to be a barrier. 

Even if it isn't and it all extracts and imports in the same format to use a hypothetical example of something that's not likely to change and certainly wouldn't in the way I outline. Imagine the CA/PA system had actually been removed this year or changed so substantially that there's no direct correlation between the 0-200 scale and what comes next, SI have embraced some weird system called strength of mind, strength of body, strength of soul and a whole bunch of attributes are combined, new attributes exist etc. The player progression models have been overhauled to work under this new system.

Every individual in the database would have had their attributes to change to conform to this new system, its limitations. Attributes to help with the new progression etc. There wouldn't really be an easy way to take that back. Maybe freeing up a few devs to figure out how to "best" do it with an automated script where X under the new system roughly equals to Y and Z under the old system could work but then it's a lot more haphazard and could result in a huge number of errors that need to be resolved to prevent attribute snapshotting upon starting the game. 

 

At no point in the research work for FM25 have we been informed to change the editing mode to adapt to a new system. We are editing as we have been doing for years.

[DaveMUFC]

19 hours ago, forameuss said:

What exactly would be the point from SI's perspective?  They know there are parties out there who already offer updates for nothing, and I suspect the people using them wouldn't really be able to notice enough differences to make it worth actually paying for it.

You know what would make it financially viable for SI though?  Making it impossible for people to make their own updates in future.  I'm sure everyone will accept that with no ill feeling whatsoever.

One major benefit from an official SI update would be start date aligned with this season and also updated format for UEFA competitions and international tournaments.

[Beccy25]

The lack of communication is a disgrace, just about every single one of us who has 24 is asking for an official database update and not so much as a word from SI. Ignoring thousands of your customers is never a good business strategy,. They must have seen all the comments on here and social media asking for it, so they need to either say we have seen what your asking for and will go ahead and provide it, or we understand people would like an update for 24 however we wont be able to and then explain the reason(s) why.

 

 

[DaveMUFC]

10 minutes ago, Beccy25 said:

The lack of communication is a disgrace, just about every single one of us who has 24 is asking for an official database update and not so much as a word from SI. Ignoring thousands of your customers is never a good business strategy,. They must have seen all the comments on here and social media asking for it, so they need to either say we have seen what your asking for and will go ahead and provide it, or we understand people would like an update for 24 however we wont be able to and then explain the reason(s) why.

 

 

There's no way in hell they'll make any sort of announcement if they aren't planning to make it lol 

[dannyo666]

16 minutes ago, Beccy25 said:

The lack of communication is a disgrace, just about every single one of us who has 24 is asking for an official database update and not so much as a word from SI. Ignoring thousands of your customers is never a good business strategy,. They must have seen all the comments on here and social media asking for it, so they need to either say we have seen what your asking for and will go ahead and provide it, or we understand people would like an update for 24 however we wont be able to and then explain the reason(s) why.

 

 

Its always cricket's for some reason-Would be great if a few kinks got ironed out for 24 until 25-The fact that it hasnt been announced,well i wouldn't get any hopes up...As for an update plenty of places to get updated transfers if that's all your looking for......

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, LeSoleil said:

At no point in the research work for FM25 have we been informed to change the editing mode to adapt to a new system. We are editing as we have been doing for years.

Are you sure there are no differences? I am a researcher for FM too and I do see some differences.

[CaptainSa]

45 minutes ago, Beccy25 said:

just about every single one of us who has 24 is asking for an official database update

I'm not

[FlorianAlbert9]

20 ore fa, albertocerdeira.4 ha scritto:

I want updated ratings made by the official researchers, not a fan made update of squads where the players and stats are the same as previous years. There are a lot of players that should be updated after the performances they had in 2024. Also, we want to see the new players coming into FM, as there are a lot of 16 yo debuting in Europe

Well, official researchers are, for the most part, fan that work for free. So, the official db is a fan made for 90%.

[scythian12]

50 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Well, official researchers are, for the most part, fan that work for free. So, the official db is a fan made for 90%.

I would also argue it is about 90 % of the value added to the program each year. 😅