Scripted result

[Honza]

Hi folks, I am just wondering f anybody has the same experience.  Just tried to replay a match 4 times and losing all the time 0:1. Having a XG above 1,5, the opponent has max 2 shots on goal and XG aroun 0,4. I get always one goal disallowed because of an offsite.  Checking the statistics, I am much more better than the opposition. The team I lose to is on a 15 position and struggling lot to produce any results. 

[XaW]

No, FM is not scripted, here is what SI have explained when it's been asked before:

 

[Honza]

I understad and would agree but - if I have a tem with perfect morale, my strikers are top of the league, the opposition has the worst defence in the leage, I am playing at home, they performance in the match is really terrible, why do I keep losing the match? I know in real life there are matches you dominate the game and lose because the universe just hates you...but how do you manage to replicate this in a program. 

[XaW]

8 minutes ago, Honza said:

I understad and would agree but - if I have a tem with perfect morale, my strikers are top of the league, the opposition has the worst defence in the leage, I am playing at home, they performance in the match is really terrible, why do I keep losing the match? I know in real life there are matches you dominate the game and lose because the universe just hates you...but how do you manage to replicate this in a program. 

Without knowing for sure, I can venture a few guesses. Complacency from your team might be a factor. While the other team has nothing to lose, so why not give it a go. They are also most likely not going to give you much space, since they think they will lose. So your strikers are unable to find any room, and when they get some poor chances they are overcondident and miss. Then when things are not going as expected, your players will be overly aggressive or frustrated and thus not playing well. And when they then fail again and again, and also get a goal against, they will struggle. I'm certain in the case of your team getting an early goal, you would steamroll to a big win, but when you don't get an early goal, your chance of losing increases.

[Damedius]

You are going to get people that say that it isn't scripted. It;s obviously scripted, it's a video game. The question isn't whether or not it's scripted. It's a question of how it's scripted.

[Honza]

Get your point and I would understand if after conceeding the goal my players would struggle to perform but it is not the case. They hammer the opposition and there is highlight after highlight and the XG is just increasig. It is more a combinatiof of hitting the post and the opposition goalkeeper having a match of his life. 

[XaW]

Well, we have the words of the developer and if one don't take that into account, I can't do or anything with more knowledge than that. I've offered up some possible reasons, but you are free to believe what you want.

[turnip]

Your opponents are defending deep and getting lots of players behind the ball, so when you attack, your players have lots of shots but not many good chances. That's why your xG isn't all that high (1.5 isn't that high).

Your opponents are either trying to counter attack - and you only need to get one of those right to score - or relying on set pieces to score. Neither of which tend to generate much xG.

 

Your job as the manager is to try to spot when complacency could be an issue and do something about it, or to change tactics during a match if it isn't working. (And before you say anything, losing the same way 4 times in a row means it clearly isn't working, no matter how much you dominate the match). 

[Damedius]

14 minutes ago, turnip said:

Your opponents are defending deep and getting lots of players behind the ball, so when you attack, your players have lots of shots but not many good chances. That's why your xG isn't all that high (1.5 isn't that high).

Your opponents are either trying to counter attack - and you only need to get one of those right to score - or relying on set pieces to score. Neither of which tend to generate much xG.

 

Your job as the manager is to try to spot when complacency could be an issue and do something about it, or to change tactics during a match if it isn't working. (And before you say anything, losing the same way 4 times in a row means it clearly isn't working, no matter how much you dominate the match). 

Counter attacking works both ways. If they are counter attacking then they can be counter attacked. I find many times with these losses to teams hovering in the relegation area that several things can happen.

Sometimes your whole team just mysteriously plays bad. Maybe the the game is scripted in order to make complacency matter much more than it should. To the extent that a team in regulation can beat a team at the top of the table.

Other times they just get lucky. In that you you get lots of chances but you hit posts and then they get a late goal on the one chance that they do get.

Edited November 27 by Damedius
spelling

[Honza]

I still remember EA responding on the "accusation" of FIFA/FC being scripte. So upon the response there is a randomnes 'brought' in to the calculation of each action. So the question is if something similar does exist in FM which as with regard to FIFA/FC backfired and the game feels more like being scripted. 

 

[Honza]

It is Czech league and Sparta Prague which dominates the league has usually 1.6 XG per game. I have a striker which has 16 agility and accelleration along with 14 off the ball which is crazy in this league. So you can imagine what he does to the defence of the opponent. 

[Honza]

And I am making sure complacency is not an issue. 

[santy001]

2 hours ago, Damedius said:

It;s obviously scripted, it's a video game.

It's a bizarre assertion. There are calculations but do you think SI spends it's time creating scripts to influence how seasons go with a myriad of situations that play out across hundreds of thousands of seasons? The ability to script FM in that manner would be far more difficult and in turn far more an impressive feat. 

28 minutes ago, Honza said:

I still remember EA responding on the "accusation" of FIFA/FC being scripte. So upon the response there is a randomnes 'brought' in to the calculation of each action. So the question is if something similar does exist in FM which as with regard to FIFA/FC backfired and the game feels more like being scripted. 

SI don't have to balance around primarily online PVP gameplay. There's no incentive in terms of money to have some games skew in your favour/against you. EA would want you to keep buying the game and ideally keep up engagement with Ultimate Team so if you're in that sphere both you and opponents need to be keeping up wins to try and keep the positive association there to in turn keep your wallet open.

In FM's terms the vast majority are playing the game as a single-player experience, and in that situation to keep people positive and engaged there's a real argument to suggest making it easier for a human player to win would be the incentive. 

Thus far no one has ever been able to offer up an incentive for why SI would want to script the game against players. There aren't any mechanics within the game to direct you towards a store to buy something that helps overcome this obstacle (like say some Ubisoft games with very slow levelling rates forcing grinding of monotonous content to get to the end game) and there aren't any matchmaking elements to hope that spending in the store somehow favourably impacts your matchmaking online (some mobile games in particular have been outed in the past as having given those who spend heavy favourable online matches) so there needs to be some reason provided that would make scripting make sense as something to do.

[Damedius]

25 minutes ago, santy001 said:

It's a bizarre assertion.

I've always found it more bizarre when people claim that a game made with scripts isn't scripted..

As to why SI would script the game against players. To make it more challenging. People might get bored a lot quicker if they won every game all season long.

If SI didn't want to script the game against players. Then why do players ask for new contracts when still have 2 or more years on their current contract? Why do squad players ask for contracts far above what they are worth, asking to be Important Players, played in specific positions and specific roles. Even in positions that aren't used in the current tactics or in positions the player was previously used in the club.

If I had to guess it's easier to do than to program the AI to competently rotate a squad. Something we brought up in beta. Yet here we are when FM 25 should be released and my U-18 Manager still can't do nor can the opposition I face in the league.

[santy001]

7 hours ago, Damedius said:

I've always found it more bizarre when people claim that a game made with scripts isn't scripted..

Because there's a clear distinction and it's straying quickly into disingenuous territory to pretend there isn't. A scripted process for how the game handles a transfer bid, presents you the options etc then passes it over to the relevant teams AI to make a decision on that in line with underlying criteria is very different to the game having scripted, pre-determined outcomes which cannot be influenced by any of the variables available to the player.

7 hours ago, Damedius said:

If SI didn't want to script the game against players. Then why do players ask for new contracts when still have 2 or more years on their current contract? Why do squad players ask for contracts far above what they are worth, asking to be Important Players, played in specific positions and specific roles. Even in positions that aren't used in the current tactics or in positions the player was previously used in the club.

On one hand it's an imperfect system because it's the games AI trying to emulate human decision making. There are players who think highly of themselves, there are players who feel they deserve these things. Equally there are players who are weak willed and can be pushed into accepting weaker terms than a player of their stature deserves.

If a person truly believes the game is scripted then they're a fool for playing the thing because it means they've never won a game in FM. They've been playing a curated, scripted story that has determined every win, loss or draw and they had negligible impact. FM isn't delivering or promising the same experience as a game like RDR2 where there are scripted events delivering a story. FM isn't an action/adventure game designed to lose in a way a player finds satisfying. FM is a management simulation within the sandbox of football management. 

[XaW]

9 hours ago, Damedius said:

I've always found it more bizarre when people claim that a game made with scripts isn't scripted..

If you mean that any game made by scripted code is scripted, then yes, all software ever created is scripted. However, if you mean "scripted" int he way the OP reported, or in the common usage of "it's scripted so that I can or cannot do XYZ to make it harder/easier", then no, it's not.

As all software, FM takes variables as input and put them into an set of code to produce an output which is then used. That's how programming works. But FM does not contain any for of narrative preset logic or "grand scheme" at all. SI themselves explained this in detail in the link I added earlier in the thread. The game "ticks" many times per second in a match and in those "ticks" all players and refs make judgements based on what happens around and the physics are applied. This is done in isolation, but of course with variables from the player attributes, morale, weather, and a myriad of others. This happens without any "grand knowledge" or plan for what happens outside that specific "tick".

If you take a random match and replay it 100 times, I can guarantee the game will not play out identical every time. The team with the best precondition to win will win most, but not always. If the game was scripted, why doesn't the same outcome happen every time?

And as Santy writes, what advantage would SI have to do so? If they wanted the game to be more challenging, they could add difficulty settings and have them impact the ticks with modifiers rather than go through the much harder work of creating a narrative driven engine.

The thing that people might struggle to grasp around FM is that YOU as the player manager isn't the main character, the only agency you are in totally in charge of is when time passes. The game will happily progress with or without your actual input. The games play, transfers happen, players are created and retired, all this happens without needing to be told or impacted by you. You are not the only reason stuff happens, and that's rare in games where everything is usually based around your team and your decisions, but not FM. The world doesn't need to cater to you, as it's a simulation of a football world, and user interaction is possible, but not needed. And since that is the case, there is no need for a narrative driven plan. If you take over a team, the world will react to it as if any other AI manager had done so. Sure, your actions as a manager will impact the world, but not more than an AI manager doing the same.

TL:DR - No, the game isn't scripted in the sense of a narrative driven story, it's a simulation that runs if you impact it or not.

[Wavelberry]

Thank you OP for ressurecting a banger thread for the FM25 release week. We need something to fill the void the delay has left in our hearts and souls.

So, yeah of course the game is scripted. Are you telling me that Super-Keepers, getting FMd and the mid-season slump aren't cultural touchstones because they don't exist??? Absolute rubbish.

It's like if someone told you that a make of car always had problems with their tyre pressure and a few guys who haven't had any issues with tyre pressure are like 'errr no' the manufacturer has said no issues as far as they know but then you google it and the top 67 results for the car are 'tyre pressure issues and how to solve them'. 

[JAwtunes]

16 hours ago, Honza said:

losing all the time 0:1. Having a XG above 1,5, the opponent has max 2 shots on goal and XG aroun 0,4. I get always one goal disallowed because of an offsite

Is there a way to share the save game file?  Pretty sure it can't happen on the SI forum, but I for one would like to see this happen in two consecutive replays, let alone 4.

[Andrew Marines]

2 ore fa, Wavelberry ha scritto:

mid-season slump

This is just due to how the AI is coded. Only at mid-season they understand how strong you are and play a defensive football. If you actually play something that counter that defensive strategy, you don't have that slump.
Still, the AI state is really bad and it's not funny unless you're a beginner

[phnompenhandy]

Beats me why people responding to these tedious threads. It's like arguing with someone who's convinced every referee is biased against their team. No point of logic will ever be accepted. Just leave them to their delusions.

[ds_61_1]

7 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Beats me why people responding to these tedious threads. It's like arguing with someone who's convinced every referee is biased against their team. No point of logic will ever be accepted. Just leave them to their delusions.

As someone mentioned further up thread. We'd usually be busy playing the new version. In lieu of that people need to be entertained. Thats what these type of threads serve as.

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

It's like if someone told you that a make of car always had problems with their tyre pressure and a few guys who haven't had any issues with tyre pressure are like 'errr no' the manufacturer has said no issues as far as they know but then you google it and the top 67 results for the car are 'tyre pressure issues and how to solve them'. 

It's more like if someone told you that a make of car was scripted to hit a parked car. As proof that the crash definitely wasn't their fault, they repeatedly reverse into the same parked car.  

You offer to drive the car into the parking space for them, and funnily enough don't have the same issue as them. But it's definitely not their driving because the internet is full of other people who've hit parked cars but refuse to accept their driving might have been an issue.

 

 

 

[Brother Ben]

Gotta love these threads.  The obvious thing to do is for the OP to upload his save file so others can have a go.  End of debate then.

While i've got you all, has anyone ever considered dynamic potential for players?  Just a thought  

[Wavelberry]

Can't believe I got a car analogy in reply to a car analogy. Mods should ban us both tbqh

[XaW]

3 hours ago, Wavelberry said:

Can't believe I got a car analogy in reply to a car analogy. Mods should ban us both tbqh

Too bad the car analogy part was removed from the rules... Otherwise both of you would get a timeout! 

[gunner86]

I flipped a coin earlier 4 times in a row, all 4 came up heads… Just saying

All the calculations in the match are essentially a probability, morale etc are then modifiers. The thing with replaying the same game - particularly if saving immediately before the match - is that so much has already been determined by press conferences etc. especially if you make no other changes to the inputs in terms of line up and tactics.

I’ve had matches before where the game has crashed, that I’d won pre-crash, and gone on to lose or draw when having to replay. And the other way round.

[HUNT3R]

39 minutes ago, XaW said:

Too bad the car analogy part was removed from the rules... Otherwise both of you would get a timeout! 

We can use this thread as motivation for why it should make a comeback.

[XaW]

Just now, gunner86 said:

I flipped a coin earlier 4 times in a row, all 4 came up heads… Just saying

All the calculations in the match are essentially a probability, morale etc are then modifiers. The thing with replaying the same game - particularly if saving immediately before the match - is that so much has already been determined by press conferences etc. especially if you make no other changes to the inputs in terms of line up and tactics.

I’ve had matches before where the game has crashed, that I’d won pre-crash, and gone on to lose or draw when having to replay. And the other way round.

Whadda ya mean Gamblers fallacy???

Just now, HUNT3R said:

We can use this thread as motivation for why it should make a comeback.

We can only hope!

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

We can use this thread as motivation for why it should make a comeback.

Keep your speed humps away from our car analogies

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, gunner86 said:

I flipped a coin earlier 4 times in a row, all 4 came up heads… Just saying

This is because you're really good at tossing...

[scythian12]

12 hours ago, gunner86 said:

I flipped a coin earlier 4 times in a row, all 4 came up heads… Just saying

I bet you 10:1 you can't repeat that! (With you next 4 coin tosses)

[gunner86]

9 hours ago, enigmatic said:

This is because you're really good at tossing...

I have had a lot of experience

55 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

I bet you 10:1 you can't repeat that! (With you next 4 coin tosses)

Genuinely, 4 tails. To be fair, different coin to last time

[scythian12]

23 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

Genuinely, 4 tails. To be fair, different coin to last time

Ha, that's not 4 heads; I win a tenth of whatever the wager was.

[gunner86]

1 hour ago, scythian12 said:

Ha, that's not 4 heads; I win a tenth of whatever the wager was.

The cheque is in the post 

[Smurf]

Even with the best team in the World (11 players nominated for Balon D'Or) 

And on an unbeaten 30 game streak.

I replayed a match vs Man Utd (cos I lost 11-0 some how) 

Then lost again. 
As a test i tried to beat them, and spent over 2 hours replaying the match, not sure what attempt I was on, but given a 1 minute load/reload/replay match (skipping (watching didn't make a diffrence)) 
Must have replayed it over 100 times. 

It's not scripted - sure, but maybe laws of averages might be tilted, at least the scales of justice were not - in the end.

[Damedius]

I just had one of those games. Absolutely dominated by a relegation team. Lost 4-0, with 3 first half injuries, one of which is a 2 month injury to my goalkeeper who dislocated his shoulder. Good times. Never fear the top team in the league, be scared of the relegation teams.

[Andrew Marines]

22 ore fa, Smurf ha scritto:

Even with the best team in the World (11 players nominated for Balon D'Or) 

And on an unbeaten 30 game streak.

I replayed a match vs Man Utd (cos I lost 11-0 some how) 

Then lost again. 
As a test i tried to beat them, and spent over 2 hours replaying the match, not sure what attempt I was on, but given a 1 minute load/reload/replay match (skipping (watching didn't make a diffrence)) 
Must have replayed it over 100 times. 

It's not scripted - sure, but maybe laws of averages might be tilted, at least the scales of justice were not - in the end.

Imagine replaying a game that many times with the same tactic that got you beaten 11-0 firsthand and be surprised they still beat you.

With all that time lost, you could have watched it in full match and assessed what it's going wrong

[Damedius]

15 minutes ago, Andrew Marines said:

Imagine replaying a game that many times with the same tactic that got you beaten 11-0 firsthand and be surprised they still beat you.

With all that time lost, you could have watched it in full match and assessed what it's going wrong

Often it's just your players forgetting how to play football. Every so often your team forgets how to play. I'm assuming because of complacency. If it was just one or two players then I could see consistency. but when your whole team forgets to show up.

[Andrew Marines]

In questo momento, Damedius ha scritto:

Often it's just your players forgetting how to play football. Every so often your team forgets how to play. I'm assuming because of complacency. If it was just one or two players then I could see consistency. but when your whole team forgets to show up.

Still, it could be that your tactic has been countered by the opposition one. Take responsibility and try to fix the situation instead of complaining. You could still lose, obviously and that's the best part of the game

[Damedius]

1 minute ago, Andrew Marines said:

Still, it could be that your tactic has been countered by the opposition one. Take responsibility and try to fix the situation instead of complaining. You could still lose, obviously and that's the best part of the game

I think you are giving far too much credit to the AI. You are suggesting that an AI that can't properly rotate it's squad has somehow managed to effectively counter your tactic.

[Andrew Marines]

3 minuti fa, Damedius ha scritto:

I think you are giving far too much credit to the AI. You are suggesting that an AI that can't properly rotate it's squad has somehow managed to effectively counter your tactic.

The AI is s**t but that doesn't mean it can't have a great tactic by default or have one that counter you in that precise moment.

Just like the average player. he/she can download a tactic from FM Arena and call it a day, that doesn't mean he/she's a great player.

The moment he/she competes against someone that does actually know how to play, he/she'll lose a lot of the time

Edited Saturday at 10:06 by Andrew Marines

[Smurf]

2 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:

Imagine replaying a game that many times with the same tactic that got you beaten 11-0 firsthand and be surprised they still beat you.

With all that time lost, you could have watched it in full match and assessed what it's going wrong

Who said I used the same tactics? I have 3 tactics made and ready to go. I tried all 3 numerous times.

I let the Assistant Manager pick team/tactics. 

No matter what I did - I lost. 

Who cares - 2 hours as an experiment - it was interesting to see for me. 

Play the game how you want. I have never watched a match in full. What a waste of time.

Only thing wrong was that my team had a destiny to lose. 

They say the game is not 'scripted'.

But there has to be some logical scripting going on that a team doesn't go an unending winning spree - as that wouldn't be realistic. 

IRL nobody goes unbeaten runs for 30 games.

https://olybet.tv/longest-winning-streaks-in-football-history/

 

[Andrew Marines]

6 minuti fa, Smurf ha scritto:

I let the Assistant Manager pick team/tactics. 

If you let the ass manager pick tactics, he won't play YOUR tactics. He'll just play its.(ya know... favourite formation and such else...)

6 minuti fa, Smurf ha scritto:

Play the game how you want. I have never watched a match in full. What a waste of time.

Hey, people have fun in different ways

6 minuti fa, Smurf ha scritto:

Only thing wrong was that my team had a destiny to lose. 

Send here the game file. Someone will play it and bust your theory or not

Edited Saturday at 11:48 by Andrew Marines

[Smurf]

1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:

If you let the ass manager pick tactics, he won't play YOUR tactics. He'll just play its.(ya know... favourite formation and such else...)

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

I know that - what do you think I was saying here? Do you not think I already knew that that's why I did it?

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:

Hey, people have fun in different ways

1 hour ago, Smurf said:

Yup. I can't stand the game when I've played a really good 2 seasons of not losing, then all of sudden 11-0 to your biggest rival out of nowhere.

But for the game to not give me a win for 2 hours - 100 attempts is absolutely crazy.

Which lends to my theory of some sort of laws of averages - which is technically scripting it.

1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:

Send here the game file. Someone will play it and bust your theory or not

Why would you think I still have it? 

[stevie_G_32201]

These things happen, Take manchester city as an example. if this happened in game i can see the threads now. " SORTITOUTSI" 

[Jack Joyce]

On 27/11/2024 at 17:25, Honza said:

Hi folks, I am just wondering f anybody has the same experience.  Just tried to replay a match 4 times and losing all the time 0:1. Having a XG above 1,5, the opponent has max 2 shots on goal and XG aroun 0,4. I get always one goal disallowed because of an offsite.  Checking the statistics, I am much more better than the opposition. The team I lose to is on a 15 position and struggling lot to produce any results. 

FM is not scripted. Matches are run on a detailed simulation that doesn't care whether there's even a human manager involved, it works the same either way. Not only is there no reason for us to 'script' matches in this way, but you can also easily test your theory by replaying a large number of matches and seeing if the score is the same in them. It won't be. 'Save scumming' has been a thing in FM for a long, long time and if it didn't work, people would know!

On xG - not scoring from an xG of 1.5 is extremely common in football, and the opposition having 0.4 xG from a max of 2 shots suggests a very high average chance quality for the opposition. Losing in a match with 1.5 - 0.4 xG 0-1 isn't that unlikely, statistically speaking.

Usually when people have problems with matches against weaker teams in the league it's down to one of two things:

• Tactics aren't suited for matches against a team parking the bus. You may have a tactic that's overreliant on finding space behind the defence or counter-attacks to score goals for example.
• Expectations - A bit more of a mindset thing, but psychologically, a lot of people expect to win against 'weaker' teams more often than is realistic. Take IRL - Spurs have beaten City twice, smashed Villa 4-1, but lost 1-0 to Ipswich. Or Liverpool, who are beating everyone at the moment yet lost 1-0 at home to Notts Forest. These things happen, but when they happen in real life they'll blame a player, or the team, and when it happens in FM some people will blame the game. Sometimes you just get unlucky or a team has your number.

[Arijit]

This should be linked/posted in every topic related to scripting complainers. 

[andu1]

On 30/11/2024 at 12:03, Andrew Marines said:

The AI is s**t but that doesn't mean it can't have a great tactic by default or have one that counter you in that precise moment.

Just like the average player. he/she can download a tactic from FM Arena and call it a day, that doesn't mean he/she's a great player.

The moment he/she competes against someone that does actually know how to play, he/she'll lose a lot of the time

AI is not bad in this game.. They can make trash player like this one score 5 times more goals then he should have.

Playing as a lone striker not even a winger like this player should be.

 

[andu1]

All Milan did in just one season was this.. 5 shots 4 goals, 3 shots 3 goals, 2 shots 1 goal, 1 shot 1 goal.........

[XaW]

6 minutes ago, andu1 said:

All Milan did in just one season was this.. 5 shots 4 goals, 3 shots 3 goals, 2 shots 1 goal, 1 shot 1 goal.........

And Leicester won the league once. Exceptional seasons can happen. You know, if something happens once in a million, and FM has 10 million player who play 10 seasons each, that once in a million chance will happen 100 times! Just because something is unlikely it does not mean it won't happen at all! Someone always win the lottery... (or lose, in this case).

If you see strange things happening regularly, then I always suggest posting stuff in the bug tracker, but as Jack posted above here, there are no scripting in game, and I'm sure if you save scummed matches, you could save scum Milan to be relegated the same season if you wanted!