3 at the back...the journey starts here! Hitchhikers welcome!

[Guv'nor]

Having been as loyal to the Championship/Football Manager course, since the mandatory 2-1 result had to be typed in before a game could be loaded, and Bryan Hughes was a talented scallywag plying his trade at Wrexham, i can only join the chorus of commendation for how far the game's come on. However, crank up the volume, and the adlibs are less complimentary. As the archetypal Football Manager, you pride yourself on doing things how you feel they should be done. You're sides under-performing in the premiership, what do you do? You switch on the CPU and start a new game, vowing to do all the things you're club manager hasn't, isnt and never will. The joy of the game was in the freedom it afforded its managers, a plethora of tactics and formations could be etched onto the drawing board, today however, it seems as though, in an effort to supplement the visual appeal of the game i.e. 3d highlights, they've sacrificed our autonomy.

...So where does the 3 at the back come in? Well, cast your eyes back to Bruce Rioch's Arsenal, Venables' England, Robson's too and you'll see that, all of these footballing dinosaurs saw fit the 3-5-2 for their managerial era. Now, jurassic it may be, the use of 3 central defenders is far from the produce of an archeological escapade off the Syrian border. Rehhagel's Greece used a 5-4-1 enroute to the European crown a few summers back. Hiddink's South Korea used a 3-5-1-1 to great effect at Japan/Korea world cup, then theres Senol Gunes' 3-3-3-1 with Turkey, Bielsa's 3-1-3-3, we're talking less than half a decade ago, systems utilising 3 centrehalves were not only still the mandate of many a manager, but were bringing home the bacon, allbeit not the entire pig. Watching these defensive units reveals one consistency amongst all these nations, the back 3 played with width in possession of the ball, and contracted when possession was lost. So in effect, the sidewards arrows of old, were very much an orthodoxy as far as these managers were concerned. Today, so as to allow ease of the generation of a 3d highlights, and predictability of player movements, we've been denied, what cannot be considered a luxury, but a formality! Perhaps, the databases inability to cope with such an array of movement, has led to our tactical freedom being restricted to mere back and forth, with the rest left to chance and the randomness of the games engine. Playing with 3 at the back is suicidal now, yet, in Serie A Napoli continue to storm up the table playing in such a motif. Mexico at the last World Cup, played a 3-1-4-2 and entertained without being hopelessly caught down the flanks, in the manner FM would suggest...

...One could go on, and fast find this thread becoming less of an invitation for great minds and thinkers to pit their wits together in attempt to recreate the magic of a back 3, and more of a critique of a floundering fault in the game.

...So, back to the drawing board. Over the coming weeks, i will endeavour to create a system utilising a back 3, which not only offers defensive solidarity, but does so without compromising ones attacking thrust. There is so much creativity on this site, that it would be foolish of me not to hang an open invitation above the thread. The floor is open for all comers, all ideas, debates, lets swell the "3 at the back" discourse with insights, theorems etc.

..The floor is open guys, those of you willing to sign-up for the challenge, list your names below, and lets get started!

[jozza800]

My little brother is playing 3-4-3 with Newcastle. 3 DCs, 2MCs with defensive mentalities, 2 attacking/flair wingers with defensive mentalities (helps cover the FB area and 3 Out and Out STs.

Mixed bagged really. Doesnt get destroyed down the wings as his wingers do a good job of tracking back. Wins 90% of his home games, is terrible away.

Using 3 at the back was born out of pure fustratration at the uselessness of the fullbacks.

--

Personally ive gone the other way with fullbacks, instead of trying to get them defend, ive set them up in the same way as Scolari. Use them as attacking player and got them bombing on, with 4 CMs (1 DM and 3 CMS) playing very narrow. Working quite well at the mo.

[jascko]

I play with 3 behind, 2 WB, 2 MC, AMR and AML, and a Striker. This is the formation that was used by Cleon last year.

The 3 behind only have defensive dutys. This contributes that my WBs can be more attacking. AMR and AML have a free role which means thay cut in much so my WBs have lot free space to cross. My MCs and WBs are on team mentality. They support both attack and defense.

Works quite well. Have not tested it so much, so all statements are based on litte observation.

[lurkingwithintent]

Tried a 3-4-3 in FM08 and failed, so will be interested to see how you guys get on.

[Adrian]

The key in making a 3-man defence it to either play attacking wingbacks or have wingers on tight marking(this is a must IMO)

The central DC could be on mixed FwR:)

[mark51773]

I play 3cd's 2dm's 3am's 2st's. The central defenders all have backwards arrows so to speak with the dm's making forward runs to cover the midfield. The wingers and central midfielder all make forward runs with high creativity and the strikers are all attack minded. At any one time I can have 5 players either defending or attacking. The only short fall is that occasionally we defend on one side without protecting the other, but this happens rarely. I am playing as Notingham Forest in my 6th season and getting good results beating Newcastle at home 6-1 and Valencia away 3-0 although Bolton did beat me at their ground 1-0 but that was after we beat Juventus at home 2-0 so I can forgive my boys that loss.....

[Qrbrrbl]

Played 3-2-2-1-2 in my first season in EPL as Blackburn. 3 CB with defensive duties, attacking WB, one defensive and one attacking CM, one AMC with free role on or off depending on the player and two strikers. Won the EPL in that season with 2 points to spare and conceding second lowest in the EPL. Worth noting this is with a world class keeper that ended the season with the highest MOM on the team and an average rating of around 7.5. My scoring capability seemed to drop though in the middle of the season. Sold Santa Cruz and brought in Guilherme and Van Der Vaart, but neither of them managed to reach their scoring potential. In fact, Van Der Vaart didnt even manage 6.5 average rating for the rest of the season

Forgot to add, WBs had forward arrows to left and right midfield.

[higgins]

I play with 3 behind, 2 WB, 2 MC, AMR and AML, and a Striker. This is the formation that was used by Cleon last year.

The 3 behind only have defensive dutys. This contributes that my WBs can be more attacking. AMR and AML have a free role which means thay cut in much so my WBs have lot free space to cross. My MCs and WBs are on team mentality. They support both attack and defense.

Works quite well. Have not tested it so much, so all statements are based on litte observation.

Sorry, but your tactic is not a real 3-4-3, cause you use wingbacks, so it's more similar to a 5-4-1, the real challenge would be to build a flat 3-4-3 that work for both home and away matches.

[Djimmi]

The Hiddink Experimental 3-6-1 (or whatever it's called) from the TT&F-set has been working really well for me. I went through the league undefeated with Juventus, conceding only 11 goals. You don't seem to score too many goals either though - lots of 1-0 victories.

[higgins]

The Hiddink Experimental 3-6-1 (or whatever it's called) from the TT&F-set has been working really well for me. I went through the league undefeated with Juventus, conceding only 11 goals. You don't seem to score too many goals either though - lots of 1-0 victories.

All the tactics from that set works quite well for very good teams but need tweaking to be employed with a weaker one.

[jascko]

Sorry, but your tactic is not a real 3-4-3, cause you use wingbacks, so it's more similar to a 5-4-1, the real challenge would be to build a flat 3-4-3 that work for both home and away matches.

Who in the hell have said that I use 3-4-3? Wher can you read that the main goal of this thread was only flat 3-4-3? This is the most irrational argument I've read so far on the forum. Learn the different formations before you say enything else, pleas. Everything depends on how I set up my WBs and my AMR/AML. That determines what formation can be considered as.

[higgins]

Who in the hell have said that I use 3-4-3? Wher can you read that the main goal of this thread was only flat 3-4-3? This is the most irrational argument I've read so far on the forum. Learn the different formations before you say enything else, pleas. Everything depends on how I set up my WBs and my AMR/AML. That determines what formation can be considered as.

Calm down jascko, I just said that nearly everyone could build a working 3 4 3 using wingbacks, the challenge would be to build a 3 - 4 - 3 with only 3 real defenders.

The starting post talks about a challenge, it's obvious you can play as you want.

[jascko]

Calm down jascko, I just said that nearly everyone could build a working 3 4 3 using wingbacks, the challenge would be to build a 3 - 4 - 3 with only 3 real defenders.

The starting post talks about a challenge, it's obvious you can play as you want.

Well, to get the formation with WBs to work is not as simple as you explain it. It can be challenge for many. So I think you simplify slightly here.

[deejay10]

Ive been using 3 at the back, with the central DC set as playmaker, with mixed Fwd runs for a while now with Napoli, with good success. I have a DM who's role is to break up attacks, and then 4 in midfield, with two wide players who's role is to attack down the flanks, an MCa making Fwd runs often, and another all round MC like Carrick or Barry, making tackles and starting attacks.

However iv just signed Eduardo and Alexis Sanchez on frees, so now i have 5 strikers, so im going to switch to a pure 3-4-3 with high CF up front, and swapping positions. Will update my progress.

[higgins]

Who in the hell have said that I use 3-4-3? Wher can you read that the main goal of this thread was only flat 3-4-3? This is the most irrational argument I've read so far on the forum. Learn the different formations before you say enything else, pleas. Everything depends on how I set up my WBs and my AMR/AML. That determines what formation can be considered as.

Ok, so you are a teacher, a tactical genious: the only issue is that no one knows you.

But I'd like to learn the secrets of this game from you.

[lyw_85]

Is there any team that doesn't have wingers in the beginning of the game?

Preferably a team that plays 352 in real life, so its easy to set up from the beginning.

I would be interested to try this!

[jascko]

Ok, so you are a teacher, a tactical genious: the only issue is that no one knows you.

But I'd like to learn the secrets of this game from you.

F*** off!!

[lyw_85]

Ok, so you are a teacher, a tactical genious: the only issue is that no one knows you.

But I'd like to learn the secrets of this game from you.

The thread is playing 3 at the back, not a 3-4-3 formation.

I don't think your reply was polite, but then again, jascko made it worst for himself with his latest reply.

[higgins]

F*** off!!

You are more useless than your posts.:D:D

[jascko]

The thread is playing 3 at the back, not a 3-4-3 formation.

I don't think your reply was polite, but then again, jascko made it worst for himself with his latest reply.

He deserves nothing better lyw. There is only so much I can tolerate from someone who has recently become a member of the forum. Not only he doesnt understand point of this thread but he doesnt even have basic knowledge of the formations. Then I do not bother to involve my self in a discourse on his level, because nothing constructive will come out of it anyway.

[deejay10]

Is there any team that doesn't have wingers in the beginning of the game?

Preferably a team that plays 352 in real life, so its easy to set up from the beginning.

I would be interested to try this!

lots of teams in Italy use 3-5-2. Napoli and and Sampdoria are particularly well suited to it. And i actually think Chelsea have the perfect team for it too.

[jascko]

Is there any team that doesn't have wingers in the beginning of the game?

Preferably a team that plays 352 in real life, so its easy to set up from the beginning.

I would be interested to try this!

Sunderland has used the 352 at least the majority of my saves. They do not play this formation in reality, since Keen greatly admired 442 from his time in Man U. But they have talented WBs in Wallace, McCartney, Edwards and Richardson. With good economy, I would say Sunderland had been the best choice if you are looking for a little challenge.

[higgins]

He deserves nothing better lyw. There is only so much I can tolerate from someone who has recently become a member of the forum. Not only he doesnt understand point of this thread but he doesnt even have basic knowledge of the formations. Then I do not bother to involve my self in a discourse on his level, because nothing constructive will come out of it anyway.

....said Mr. 80 posts, a great contributor for this forum and a tactical mastermind.

[jascko]

....said Mr. 80 posts, a great contributor for this forum and a tactical mastermind.

Listen d *** head. If you do not stop to spam this thread I will get you banned. You know nothing about me and how many posts I have had before I changed my nickname. So be very careful before I really get angry. This is your last warning.

[Avogadro]

Listen d *** head. If you do not stop to spam this thread I will get you banned. You know nothing about me and how many posts I have had before I changed my nickname. So be very careful before I really get angry. This is your last warning.

LOL tough guy.

[Lisandro Lopez]

jascko

Cut out the abuse and the aggressive posts, the only person in this thread at the moment on there way to a banning is you. If you can't say anything constructive, don't post. It's pretty simple.

[Code]

Owned???

[jascko]

Owned???

Well, I m still here:)

[Code]

Well, I m still here:)

Pity. Just kidding

[deejay10]

....said Mr. 80 posts, a great contributor for this forum and a tactical mastermind.

Surely your tactical 'expertise' is not measured by your number of posts on this forum ? What about all the people out there who make their own tactics and have a lot of success, and so don't visit the tactics forum so much on the hunt for successful tactics ? Me personally I create my own tactics, but i like reading constructive threads discussing how to get teams to play in a certain way, with a certain formation, or take advantage of some players unique abilities, and i throw in my two pennies based on what iv experimented with in my own games. Because of my low post count, and lack of comments on the numerous tactics posted here, im of course tactically inferior to you, oh mastermind.

[salkster2102]

Surely your tactical 'expertise' is not measured by your number of posts on this forum ? What about all the people out there who make their own tactics and have a lot of success, and so don't visit the tactics forum so much on the hunt for successful tactics ? Me personally I create my own tactics, but i like reading constructive threads discussing how to get teams to play in a certain way, with a certain formation, or take advantage of some players unique abilities, and i throw in my two pennies based on what iv experimented with in my own games. Because of my low post count, and lack of comments on the numerous tactics posted here, im of course tactically inferior to you, oh mastermind.

i believe he was saying that in light of how jasco was speaking to him. It doesn't necessarily mean that is what he believes is true. Back to the topic I will be following this as i am quite intrigued at the prospect of a good tactic like this.

[higgins]

i believe he was saying that in light of how jasco was speaking to him. It doesn't necessarily mean that is what he believes is true. Back to the topic I will be following this as i am quite intrigued at the prospect of a good tactic like this.

Yes it's true, that was the reason of my reply, he was insulting me and was acting as he was a moderator, saying that I was a newcomer not able to understand tactics and formations, for sure I need no lesson from him.

[graysonpaul]

i think i have created a strong 3 at the back formation. i play 3 centre backs, 4 straight across the midfield and three up front but the strikers either side are not central, they are placed at the corner flags. it seems to work a lot, atm i am 7 games won in a row, im Man City, i kept 5 clean sheets in the 7 games and have conceded three in total, trying to improve it further at the moment.

......................................GK...........................................

...........................DC.......DC......DC.................................

.................MCR......MCD.........MCA............ML..................

.................FR.................FC.....................FL....................

i think the key to my formation is the, MR/L man marking and tight marking, also the centre backs all on zonal marking(because if the AI play one up top, all my centre backs won't get drawnt to the same man, as they would normally on man marking). the MR/ML always crossing from byline, this causes my FR/FL to move into the box unmarked and score more. if anyone wants to test and help improve let me know in a pm. good thread, like the idea of 3 at the back, greater attacking options.

[higgins]

i think i have created a strong 3 at the back formation. i play 3 centre backs, 4 straight across the midfield and three up front but the strikers either side are not central, they are placed at the corner flags. it seems to work a lot, atm i am 7 games won in a row, im Man City, i kept 5 clean sheets in the 7 games and have conceded three in total, trying to improve it further at the moment.

......................................GK...........................................

...........................DC.......DC......DC.................................

.................MCR......MCD.........MCA............ML..................

.................FR.................FC.....................FL....................

i think the key to my formation is the, MR/L man marking and tight marking, also the centre backs all on zonal marking(because if the AI play one up top, all my centre backs won't get drawnt to the same man, as they would normally on man marking). the MR/ML always crossing from byline, this causes my FR/FL to move into the box unmarked and score more. if anyone wants to test and help improve let me know in a pm. good thread, like the idea of 3 at the back, greater attacking options.

I believe that your Ml/Mr have very good pace to man mark and tight mark, or not?

Did you give free role and lot of creative freedom to your Fr and Fl?

[deejay10]

Against teams that play with 2 strikers i would advise putting the two side DC's on man marking. Also make sure the passing of the DC's is related to the mentalities of the midfield. If you are playing wider, more aggressive, with Fwd runs in midfield, if the DC's passing is not on direct, or 1-2 notches lower, they will just pass it amongst themselves and the GK before they are pressured and tackled, or give the ball away cheaply. With direct passing, they will quickly move the ball forwards to the midfield, or widemen.

Im currently using this very same formation with Napoli, with the central CB set as playmaker, and the two wide forwards on free roles. However the mentality spacing between the players is small, to prevent losing the ball with players out of position and getting hit on the counter attack.

[graysonpaul]

I believe that your Ml/Mr have very good pace to man mark and tight mark, or not?

Did you give free role and lot of creative freedom to your Fr and Fl?

well i find it best to play one defensive minded mr and the other attack minded. at the momenet i play petrov ml and zabaleta mr, and sometimes marcelo ml and wright-phillips mr. zabaleta is not that pacey whereas the rest are, saying that zabaleta gets great ratings and scores a few. creative freedom on the fr and fl is first notch of much and a free role, the mentality is considerably less attacking than fc. the only teams i struggle against are teams like newcastle, who have very quick strikers e.g. martins. any idea how to counter him??

[higgins]

well i find it best to play one defensive minded mr and the other attack minded. at the momenet i play petrov ml and zabaleta mr, and sometimes marcelo ml and wright-phillips mr. zabaleta is not that pacey whereas the rest are, saying that zabaleta gets great ratings and scores a few. creative freedom on the fr and fl is first notch of much and a free role, the mentality is considerably less attacking than fc. the only teams i struggle against are teams like newcastle, who have very quick strikers e.g. martins. any idea how to counter him??

Probably not tight marking him and playing with a lower d-line, imo, but the position of your d.line is linked with your mentality and closing down system.

[lyw_85]

I'm thinking of a 3-2-2-1-2. Or some call it a 5-3-2.

3 Defenders, 2 Wingbacks, 2 MCs, 1 AMC and 2 Strikers.

As there are no wingers, I think 2 pacy strikers will be needed.

The AMC will be the playmaker while the 2 MC are tough tackling midfielders set to just pass it short.

Just thinking about it makes me want to start a new save!

[graysonpaul]

I'm thinking of a 3-2-2-1-2. Or some call it a 5-3-2.

3 Defenders, 2 Wingbacks, 2 MCs, 1 AMC and 2 Strikers.

As there are no wingers, I think 2 pacy strikers will be needed.

The AMC will be the playmaker while the 2 MC are tough tackling midfielders set to just pass it short.

Just thinking about it makes me want to start a new save!

reading most of the reviews about amc's with the new patch i think u may be best dropping the amc into a mc role due to the bad rating hitch, so you may be able to get more of the player in mc with fwd runs often. i think you would be best with strikers that have move in to channels as a preferred move so it adds width further up the pitch, i find wing backs sometimes have trouble supplying continueous quality balls to strikers, because there dribble starts from so deep

[jascko]

reading most of the reviews about amc's with the new patch i think u may be best dropping the amc into a mc role due to the bad rating hitch, so you may be able to get more of the player in mc with fwd runs often. i think you would be best with strikers that have move in to channels as a preferred move so it adds width further up the pitch, i find wing backs sometimes have trouble supplying continueous quality balls to strikers, because there dribble starts from so deep

Spot on. Not only that AMC is bugd, something which Cleon have confirmed SI working with to solve, but there are several things that indicate that FWR is what creates problems with the rating system for AMC. This applies also to a large extent if you have AMC in MC position with FWR often. What happens in this case is that the midfielder with FWR often will bombard forward all the time, resulting in isolation since he does not see as much of the ball. Like Loversleaper have pointed out the best starting point is to have a midfielders with the FWR on mix. I will go further and implement the holding midfielder with non FWR, especially if you play flat 3 at midfield to prevent potential counter-attacks.

When it comes to WBs and their supplaying to strikers is an easy way to solve the problem. If you have fast strikers you should study how they move in the box when crossis are delivered. If they have a pattern where they are often at the first post, something that fast strikers often do, then you should change the settings to WBs to cross from mix, TB on mix and get them to deliver at the first bar. This will increase the chances of strikers since they are more in position to score. However, if you have typical TM then you should consider crossis aim to TM or at the back post. It is best to study strikers movement in the box and then find out where crossis should be provided. With crossis from mix the WBs will sometimes deliver crossis early, something that fits for pacey strikers since they can beat the opponent. But everything depends on WBs dicision stat when they decides to cross.

When it comes to free role, as it is mentioned here before, I will indeed be extremely careful. With free role you give the player green light to do what he wants, something that could backfire if the player does not have high values in the decision, flair, creativity and off the ball. You relieve the player in this case for all the defensive commitment as well. I would have tried first by increasing the creativity of these players and see how they react to changes. Free role should be implemented only in cases where the opponent has parked the bus. But playing with Man U or Barca then put the matter on different because these teams have a lot of skill full players. This is something that Sir Alex does both in reality and in the game. But be aware that he rarely has D-line higher than 10. This is because he is trying to invite his opponent on him so that he makes space to his wingers with free role.

[lyw_85]

reading most of the reviews about amc's with the new patch i think u may be best dropping the amc into a mc role due to the bad rating hitch, so you may be able to get more of the player in mc with fwd runs often. i think you would be best with strikers that have move in to channels as a preferred move so it adds width further up the pitch, i find wing backs sometimes have trouble supplying continueous quality balls to strikers, because there dribble starts from so deep

Actually I don't have problems with my AMC.

The ratings are based on key passes so if you have lots of key passes for your AMC, then he should have a good rating.

I was thinking of making the AMC the playmaker, so attacks will have to go through to him.

The wingbacks are just there to provide some width. The attacks have to start from the centre though.

I couldn't really find a good team to start with

Maybe I shall cheat abit and use FMRTE to get a mid-quality team on.

[macca72]

I'm looking to develop a tactic based on the ultra defensive AI formation (3-3-2-1-2), but i'm going to use a ball-playing sweeper...This would fit into your 3 at the back challenge yes ?

[deejay10]

The problem with making the AMC the playmaker, is that he will too far up the pitch to influence the building of attacks. A deeper-lying playmaker is defnitely needed to recycle possesion, in that if there is no space to attack, a midfielder will pass it back to a sweeper-playmaker, who will then move the ball to another part of the pitch to start another attack.

I have experiemented with both an AMC, an MCa and a DC as playmaker, and controlling of the game, possession, CCC's, goals, has been far better when the DC was set to playmaker with direct passing. I only had one midfielder on Fwd runs, a Gerrard type of player with good off the ball, finishing attributes who scored a lot of goals and who i wanted in the box finishing moves.

If working correctly, a 3-4-3 will pin back the opposition full-backs because your wide forwards regularly get in behind the full backs, leaving your ML/R one-on-one with theirs when defending.

[mackemforever]

I am currently trying a similar thing, creating a tactic with 3 central defenders and am having some success.

My tactic is based on having 3 purely defensive players, 3 players who both defend and attack and 4 all out attackers.

The 3 defensive players are the 3 central defenders.

The 3 mixed players are two wing backs and one central midfielder.

And the attacking players are one other central midfielders, 2 attacking wingers and one striker.

Currently it seems to be working quite well except for one problem with long balls down the line which I can't quite figure out how to stop yet.

[kroshot]

ive just won the premiership with my birmingham team in only my second season in the premiership after getting promotion using my 3-1-3-3 or 3-1-4-2 tactics.the set up is based on a tactic on the forums by jamez91 s 442 tactic.

right now to describe the changes i made

1.moved the left mid to striker thus making three forwards gave him same instructions as other 2 forwards

2.moved the right mid into the centre giving me my 3 midfielders gave him same instructions as other midfielders

3.moved the left back to dmc position change forwards runs and run with ball and crossing to rarely didnt change anything else.

4.moved right back into central defence giving him same instructions as other centre backs

5. if struggling move the left striker to left midfield push one of the midfielders across to right midfield giving you a flat four in midfield.

6.sometimes i found taking free roles off all the strikers can work

7.one problem was the two outer strikers not scoring enough.any solutions to this would be welcomed.

8.didnt change team instructions at all.used this for about 95% of the season ended up winning the league letting in only 27 goals scoring about 65.

my team was

craig gordon-gk

leoandro goida-dc

chyzhov-dc

eduardo -dc

fellaini-dmc

kacar-mc

zuchlini-mc

beckham-mc

bojan-st

selezynov-sc

lewandowski-sc

driver aml

kightly amr

larsson amr

piatti aml

fleck aml/sc

daerden cm

pearce dc

coman gk

uche sc

aquino sc

mattock dml

mascio mc

schneiderlin mc

s.kelly cb

kadlec sc

give it a try iot worked for me

just added defour laurito and scott sinclair sold uche

[bothered]

Bielsa's 3-1-3-3

IIRC he's the Chile boss atm. I watched their match against Argentina a few months back and they played such a fast paced, high closing down game for the whole 90 minutes. It was incredible. Just wondering how everyone else feels about tempo & closing down for a back 3..?

[Guv'nor]

Ok, guys so i've been working on Frankenstein's monster for the past few days, will post my progress, and in some cases, lack of it, in a little while.