Arrow's or Arrowless?

[RossoneriGunner]

I have always used the arrows right from the start of CM/FM, but reading TT&F '09 I was interested to read about the arrowless match engine. How many have tried this or are using this at the moment and which do you prefer? I am at present starting a new game (Arsenal) so I cannot say which I prefer at the moment, but I do like the sound of not using arrows.

[Cleon]

Pretty boring if you don't use forward runs at all and limits what you can achieve. You'd be mad not to use any forward runs imo, why would anyone want to limit what they can do interms of game play? The attacking play would suffer the most depending on which formation you use, as the striker/s wouldn't have much support as mentality alone isn't always enough. So how do you except to provide support?

[Lyssien]

Everybody uses the "arrowless ME", because there are no arrows any more, not the ones that used to exist.

Until FM08, arrows depicted where you wanted your players to go when you did/didn't have the ball. So they showed position. In FM09, the new "arrows" show forward runs, so they are completely different (it's just an illustrative way to show you where the forward runs slider is for each player). The old arrows do not exist any more.

[el sid]

Everybody uses the "arrowless ME", because there are no arrows any more, not the ones that used to exist.

Until FM08, arrows depicted where you wanted your players to go when you did/didn't have the ball. So they showed position. In FM09, the new "arrows" show forward runs, so they are completely different (it's just an illustrative way to show you where the forward runs slider is for each player). The old arrows do not exist any more.

I think he knows that.

[RossoneriGunner]

What I was referring to was that the arrows were not used to tell your player where to run, but where to be when your team were in possession. In case someone has not seen it, here is the article I was referring to.

The Arrowless Match Engine

With the removal of arrows, the Forward Runs slider has become significantly more important. In combination with mentality, it is now the major method of instructing a player to advance from his formation position and move into attacking areas of the pitch. It is important to clarify the benefits of this change.

There is a common misperception as to the functionality of arrows. Arrows were not player runs. Nor did they specify exactly where a player should be running, either with or without the ball. What they did was specify two possession-related static positions. As soon as a team won possession, a player would robotically follow his arrow to move into his assigned attacking position. Once there, he would make a play related move. When the team lost the ball the same would happen in reverse. During this movement, the player was following a pre-set instruction that kicked in no matter what was happening on the pitch, taking the player out of the game and impairing his ability to react to the action.

Replacing arrows with forward runs ensures that player movement is far more dynamic and directly related to on-pitch events. Despite a seeming loss of lateral control, which, as with most arrow-related moves, was largely illusory, the new system ensures dynamic player movement, fluid football and realistic transitions from defence to attack. A well thought-through forward runs pattern will lead to some truly excellent passing combinations and quality attacking play.

[Lyssien]

OK, cool, I misunderstood. Then, there is no matter of preference really, the AI could not cope with the human's use arrows, so SI rightly did away with them. Now it 's much harder to find gaps in the Match Engine. Back in the days of arrows, it was much easier to find such gaps and exploit them.

[Cleon]

The main problem with arrows was they allowed your player to play 2 positions without and downsides. Now you can't.

[Diegas]

Would this mean that a player with a forward arrow and 'rarely' forward runs will do just exactly the same move as player with no arrow and 'often' forward runs now?

BTW, I miss those arrows you could set diagonal move

[Cleon]

You can't have no arrows and forward runs often or vice versa. As soon as you put forward runs rarely it adds the backward arrow, mixed there is no arrow. Often is the forward arrow.

[Devilsharck]

The formation I use dictates that I cant use forward runs at all for any position.

I play a narrow flat 4-4-2, and need my defense and midfield to be and move in parallel lines up and down the pitch, so they all stay close to each other. It's essential to my tactic which is all about quickly winning possession and counter attacking. I need my defense to support my midfield so I play a high defensive line and I also need at least two players around the oponent ball carrier at any one time.

I have spent years perfecting my tactic and love the end results it has produced, so to those who say you would be foolish or mad to NOT use arrows, just isn't thinking outside the box at all. Theres many many tactics and many ways to play this game.

It's just a case of USE THEM IF YOU NEED THEM.

[Cleon]

How do you achieve getting 2 players with the ball carrier all the time without using forward runs mixed or often? you can't..... as they wont follow or support him.

[Diegas]

You can't have no arrows and forward runs often or vice versa. As soon as you put forward runs rarely it adds the backward arrow, mixed there is no arrow. Often is the forward arrow.

Thanks for pointing that out, Cleon. Feel quite stupid for having not noticed mylelf :o

How do you achieve getting 2 players with the ball carrier all the time without using forward runs mixed or often? you can't..... as they wont follow or support him.

If hes having no arrows, then it means FwR is set to mixed - so they will run forward sometimes.

[Cleon]

Thanks for pointing that out, Cleon. Feel quite stupid for having not noticed mylelf :o

If hes having no arrows, then it means FwR is set to mixed - so they will run forward sometimes.

He said he wasn't using forward runs at all, so I took that as meaning rarely. Hence my post

[Diegas]

He said he wasn't using forward runs at all, so I took that as meaning rarely. Hence my post

Ah, yes, my mistake. I understood that he uses no arrows, not no forward runs.

But then, all the players should have arrows back in this formation? Would like to see that in action, cause still those two counterattacking players should be running forward to get into counterattacking possition, right? Devilsharck, any chance of uploading tct somewhere?

[Cleon]

Ah, yes, my mistake. I understood that he uses no arrows, not no forward runs.

But then, all the players should have arrows back in this formation? Would like to see that in action, cause still those two counterattacking players should be running forward to get into counterattacking possition, right? Devilsharck, any chance of uploading tct somewhere?

Yes they all should have back arrows, its why I was interested in seeing how he'd got the players to support with instructing them rarely to go forward.

[heathxxx]

I'm still working on getting a good balance with the forward runs, based on my preferred systems. You might be pleased to learn Cleon, that late in FM08 and now in FM09, I finally relented and adopted a single striker approach, using wide AM's to support the striker.

Am finding this works very well in FM09 and although it's different to using the arrows as before to get your wide players to "drop" into an FC® or an FC (L) position, the dynamics of the match engine seem much more realistic.

The biggest difference I suppose from when you could use a side arrow, is that it's the nail in the coffin for players like "Sideways Ray" Wilkins (during the later stages of his playing career

[Devilsharck]

How do you achieve getting 2 players with the ball carrier all the time without using forward runs mixed or often? you can't..... as they wont follow or support him.

Sorry if I never made it clear enough, but I meant two of MY players defending against the opposition's ball carrier at any one time (it is vital in winning the ball back).

Thats why I dont use arrows because I need my 4 defenders OR my 4 midfielders to be close to each other so it would be possible to get the 2 player pressure needed. for when we win the ball back. I could make all my midfielders have arrows but it would make the gap between the defense and midfield to big as I dont attack with my 4 defenders ( 80% of the time all my defenders stay near the half way line when we attack)

My tactic uses a high defensive line (with offside trap) and high closing down (with zonal marking), so we normaly always win the ball back near the half way line and when we counter from there my players only need to run a short distance to be inside the opposition's penalty area, and if my midfield need help my defense is always close by to lend a hand if they get into trouble (i.e lose the ball or need to make a short back pass to rebuild the attack). So I dont need to use any ARROWS as my players are already are in a good position to counter when we win the ball back 90% of the time. The trick is I use a very fast paced and direct passing so even if we get the ball deep inside our half it only takes a couple of passes to get the ball back up the field.

Its a flat 4-4-2(very narrow) With no arrows, and is very balanced, Its main principle is to attack with six players and defend with eight players. when we dont have the ball we try to pressure the opposition like I said with atleast 2 players pressuring the opponent ball carrier all over the pitch, to quickly regain the ball and then quickly counter with the 6 players.

It's not the normal type "suck em in deep in your own half then counter" type of tactics, but more of a high pressure, high tempo "win the ball as high up the pitch as possible then try to out number there defenders before there midfield get back.

Main benifits are that you dont need superstar players to make the tactic work, all you need is players with high stamina and high work rate, and high'ish off the ball movement.

Only flaws is sometimes your offside trap gets beaten, but if you have a good keeper who can rush off his line then he will save you from this attack lots of times.

[Rashidi]

Sorry if I never made it clear enough, but I meant two of MY players defending against the opposition's ball carrier at any one time (it is vital in winning the ball back).

Thats why I dont use arrows because I need my 4 defenders OR my 4 midfielders to be close to each other so it would be possible to get the 2 player pressure needed. for when we win the ball back. I could make all my midfielders have arrows but it would make the gap between the defense and midfield to big as I dont attack with my 4 defenders ( 80% of the time all my defenders stay near the half way line when we attack)

My tactic uses a high defensive line (with offside trap) and high closing down (with zonal marking), so we normaly always win the ball back near the half way line and when we counter from there my players only need to run a short distance to be inside the opposition's penalty area, and if my midfield need help my defense is always close by to lend a hand if they get into trouble (i.e lose the ball or need to make a short back pass to rebuild the attack). So I dont need to use any ARROWS as my players are already are in a good position to counter when we win the ball back 90% of the time. The trick is I use a very fast paced and direct passing so even if we get the ball deep inside our half it only takes a couple of passes to get the ball back up the field.

Its a flat 4-4-2(very narrow) With no arrows, and is very balanced, Its main principle is to attack with six players and defend with eight players. when we dont have the ball we try to pressure the opposition like I said with atleast 2 players pressuring the opponent ball carrier all over the pitch, to quickly regain the ball and then quickly counter with the 6 players.

It's not the normal type "suck em in deep in your own half then counter" type of tactics, but more of a high pressure, high tempo "win the ball as high up the pitch as possible then try to out number there defenders before there midfield get back.

Main benifits are that you dont need superstar players to make the tactic work, all you need is players with high stamina and high work rate, and high'ish off the ball movement.

Only flaws is sometimes your offside trap gets beaten, but if you have a good keeper who can rush off his line then he will save you from this attack lots of times.

in theory at least it should prove to be a good tactic, however the threat of easy counters means that you'd need to have really good players, an average side could quite easily be forced into chasing shadows

[Devilsharck]

Trust me, you DON'T need really good players, like I said it would only work with players who have good stamina and work rate, also it would proberbly be best to have defenders who are pacey and can work together to implement the offside trap.

I have been developing this tactic since FM 07, and have used it in lower league teams and its worked a treat.To me personally it has already proved itself, or I wouldn't be so proud of it.

I did say that It does have a good chance that your offside trap will not work once in a while. The more your defenders work together the better they get at using the offside trap and the opposition get caught many times by this.