Two footness needs to be reworked.

[Da_Funk]

Assuming both players have identical CA, why on earth should the changes be reversed?

A friend of mine asked me this. How come that some players lose both feet?

Example: G.Rossi from both feet he's become right. Checking with genie scout i find the he's left foot value is 14, while at the beginning it's 15.

It happens to only to his players (Afellay too), not AI. Might be something in training?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Assuming both players have identical CA, why on earth should the changes be reversed?

I think he means they should be reversed because right now the stats don't correctly represent player ability. If a player has 14 dribbling in addition to 18 weaker foot which actually makes him dribble like an 18 dribbling one footed player in the match engine then it's not intuitive in the slightest. Why should we check the positions screen to find out a players weaker foot ability, then apply some vague unexplained formula to their other stats to find out how good the player actually is at doing something? How will players new to the game work this out without these forums?

[PaulC]

If a player has 14 dribbling in addition to 18 weaker foot which actually makes him dribble like an 18 dribbling one footed player in the match engine then it's not intuitive in the slightest.

That doesn't make sense to me. If a player has X for an ability, then it will work as X for his best foot, and a proportion of X for his weaker side if applicable.

[jayahr]

maybe it could be implemented that when a player reaches some point of CA (100 for example) he couldn't have WFA less then let's say 5-6. simple workaround and quite realistic probably?

Quite realistic, but that doesn't explain the existence of Orlando Engelaar (who really just has his right leg to keep in an upright position)

[Gilles Domoraud]

That doesn't make sense to me. If a player has X for an ability, then it will work as X for his best foot, and a proportion of X for his weaker side if applicable.

I think he means he thinks some players who have this dual footed-ness are under-rated as the CA they have been given(maybe a researcher problem, with them not knowing the correct weightings?) does not hold their attributes properly.

[Äktsjon Männ]

That doesn't make sense to me. If a player has X for an ability, then it will work as X for his best foot, and a proportion of X for his weaker side if applicable.

Is that how it actually works? Because I don't know nor has anyone of your lot confirmed anything. I'm going by the assumption that two-footed players outperform one-footed ones in the ME. If your formula is correct then why is the weaker foot ability valued that high in CA points that a point more/less will affect other attributes severely?

The only attributes where two-footedness is a clear advantage are first touch, passing, crossing and shooting/finishing. Show me a naturally right-footed player that takes the ball on his left when dribbling down the right. Or one that takes a free kick/penalty on his weaker foot. Nevermind marking or tackling or heading. If two-footed regens were balanced right and changes in weaker foot ability (which occur through re-training and general training on occasion) didn't cause attributes to rise/drop all over the board then you'd have a lot less of these complaints. Weaker foot ability needs to be tied to relevant attributes only. Hard to do, I understand, but this would be the realistic way.

In a way this highlights the weaknesses of the CA/PA system best. In FM universe a player that is quick, strong, technical and two-footed can't exist unless they're completely rubbish in every other area. What I would suggest is reducing the weightings in general so that a player with 200 ability could actually be 'the perfect player' (not 20s across the board but sufficiently good so that Cristiano Ronaldos strenght in the air wouldn't have to be sacrificed in order to get his more vital stats close to reality along with his weaker foot ability), but the probability of such a player appearing in the game would be very low. And allow weaker foot ability changes only if CA fluctuations allow it to happen without sacrificing other attributes.

[Mitja]

That doesn't make sense to me. If a player has X for an ability, then it will work as X for his best foot, and a proportion of X for his weaker side if applicable.

that's the most logical way for WFA to work. why have the weighting system then in the first place? it's just another attribute, if it must exist then it should affect only passing, shooting, 1st touch etc, not phisical and mental stats.

[Ceching You Out]

that's the most logical way for WFA to work. why have the weighting system then in the first place? it's just another attribute, if it must exist then it should affect only passing, shooting, 1st touch etc, not phisical and mental stats.

Not sure what you mean Mitja. If I correctly remember a previous discussion with SI developers, WFA works exactly how PaulC describes it. There are a few mental attributes which you could make an argument are affected by whether the player is on his stronger or weaker foot (for example, a player may be much more composed on his stronger foot), but ultimately it's hard to justify "taking away" CA points from a player which could have gone towards physical attributes entirely independent of "footedness" (pace, jumping, etc.).

This is only exacerbated when you consider that these physical attributes tend to be more "expensive" attributes when counting towards the CA. Granted, some of this is probably done to even out the positive effect of having a high WFA in the ME, but it does so in an entirely unrealistic way. Spending extra time training a weaker foot doesn't really limit you physically or make you stupider; it only means time spent practicing passing, shooting, technique, etc. with only your dominant foot is split between both feet.

It'd be nice to see WFA displayed more like an attribute and curtail just the appropriate attributes explicitly related to weaker foot proficiency.

[Shizzle]

^

you're on point, but this is actually not the problem, the balance is especially for regens completly off.

A 16 year old either footed AMC will never ever have the same mental stats and physical stats as a one footed counterpart with the same Ca.

Actually most either footd regens are atleast rubbish in one area or master of none.

The weighting is way too high, I always hear how a two footed player is better with the same CA, sorry physical and mental stats make more then up for it, what will be more used in the ME, ALL his mental and ALL his physical stats or some of his technical stats that can be used with both feet?

The idea for two footness being represented in the engine as a advantage is great and a must,but the weighting of the CA should go down and please no more 6 decisions,5composure and 7 flair players, or useless physical/technical stats because the weaker foot of the regen takes up all of his ca.

How much does it cost being 20/20 with both feet?30-40 CA?

I think everyone could live with the system staying the way it is for the database players, but for the regens......they are great besides the weaker foot problem.

A possible solution would be to be able to let the youngsters train their weaker foot, happens in real life too.

Imagine you got a great young striker talent who is rubbish with his weaker foot, wouldn't you tell him to train it just like all the other aspects of his game?

Ever seen a pro that should have a rating of 1 for his weaker foot?Or a worldclass player?

A rating of 1 is like....he can touch the ball without losing balance and breaking his feet.

I used to play a lot football as a kid and seriously everyone including me were atleast ok with our weaker foot let's say a rating of 5+.

We all could atleast pass with it and stop the ball with it .

Same with any sport, been playing basketball for 4 years now and even at an amateur level almost all the players can not only dribble stop the ball and control it, but feint,pass,shoot and dribble to an extent.

Now compare that too a pro.

[MSCCG]

I'm sure that the technical aspects and what happens in the ME have been worked on over and over and will continue to be, but personally my biggest problem is getting my head around the idea (I know that it is, but I can never get used to it) that someone with a lower stat but two footed is better than someone with the higher stat but one footed. It only makes sense when you know it, at this point I am finding it seriously counter-intuitive and I also find the philosophy behind it a little confusing.

For example Elano turned out with better stats than Ronaldo some time ago. Judging by the information we have in this thread, theoretically Elano is better at using his stronger foot than Ronaldo is. I still don't think that if they had some kind of competition where both players were only allowed to use one foot, Ronaldo would lose... Same with Joao Moutinho and Michael Carrick.

The biggest problem I have with this system is the CA that will go in things other than technical. As in the example above, Joao moutinho is single footed, and better than Carrick in every mental aspect, as well as being better in most of the technical stats. No matter what the logic is, I can't in any way see how this can work, especially when Carrick has 7 points of CA over Moutinho.

[Da_Funk]

I'm sure that the technical aspects and what happens in the ME have been worked on over and over and will continue to be, but personally my biggest problem is getting my head around the idea (I know that it is, but I can never get used to it) that someone with a lower stat but two footed is better than someone with the higher stat but one footed. It only makes sense when you know it, at this point I am finding it seriously counter-intuitive and I also find the philosophy behind it a little confusing.

It make sense (personal opinion of course) when the player has some great skills. I can't imagine a player with dribbling 13 (both feet) being so strong in real life, especially with not great aerobic stats. It's something difficult to understand.

Look at many left wingers/wingbacks, especially South American. Vargas, Roberto Carlos and so on, they don't know what to do with their right foot Another example might be Hagi, if I remember right.

[Mitja]

I'm sure that the technical aspects and what happens in the ME have been worked on over and over and will continue to be, but personally my biggest problem is getting my head around the idea (I know that it is, but I can never get used to it) that someone with a lower stat but two footed is better than someone with the higher stat but one footed. It only makes sense when you know it, at this point I am finding it seriously counter-intuitive and I also find the philosophy behind it a little confusing.

For example Elano turned out with better stats than Ronaldo some time ago. Judging by the information we have in this thread, theoretically Elano is better at using his stronger foot than Ronaldo is. I still don't think that if they had some kind of competition where both players were only allowed to use one foot, Ronaldo would lose... Same with Joao Moutinho and Michael Carrick.

The biggest problem I have with this system is the CA that will go in things other than technical. As in the example above, Joao moutinho is single footed, and better than Carrick in every mental aspect, as well as being better in most of the technical stats. No matter what the logic is, I can't in any way see how this can work, especially when Carrick has 7 points of CA over Moutinho.

speaking about Ronaldo he seems to be the most under-rated player there. attribute wise and statisticly. lying on 54th place in av. rating, scoring 1 goal and 0 assist in 10 PL games so far in my game. i wonder how he's doing in other people saves?

[x42bn6]

Two-footedness kills set-piece delivery.

I have quite a few two-footers who play very well indeed, but I have only one good set-piece taker because he's less one-footed than the rest. Irritating.

[Mitja]

lol, so this is the old thread I guess?

can we transmit the poll from mine?

[PaulC]

There is no point, as what you are asking for is based on a misunderstanding of the system and isnt going to happen

[Mitja]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, looks like the majority of people are misunderstanding the system then Paul. or you're talking about the wrong assumption I made? but then you should look at your post number 53 in this thread..

I think you confirmed some things I had in mind if my assumtion's not correct

[PaulC]

Not exactly. A "proportion", yes, but not neccesarily as you interpreted it.

You asked in the poll if we should remove the link between weak foot and CA. That wouldnt make sense for reasons explained countless times and henceforth isnt going to happen

Now I have work to do!

[Mitja]

yeah I know it won't

[danish chelsea]

Is that how it actually works? Because I don't know nor has anyone of your lot confirmed anything. I'm going by the assumption that two-footed players outperform one-footed ones in the ME. If your formula is correct then why is the weaker foot ability valued that high in CA points that a point more/less will affect other attributes severely?

The only attributes where two-footedness is a clear advantage are first touch' date=' passing, crossing and shooting/finishing. Show me a naturally right-footed player that takes the ball on his left when dribbling down the right. Or one that takes a free kick/penalty on his weaker foot. Nevermind marking or tackling or heading. If two-footed regens were balanced right and changes in weaker foot ability (which occur through re-training and general training on occasion) didn't cause attributes to rise/drop all over the board then you'd have a lot less of these complaints. Weaker foot ability needs to be tied to relevant attributes only. Hard to do, I understand, but this would be the realistic way.

In a way this highlights the weaknesses of the CA/PA system best. In FM universe a player that is quick, strong, technical and two-footed can't exist unless they're completely rubbish in every other area. What I would suggest is reducing the weightings in general so that a player with 200 ability could actually be 'the perfect player' (not 20s across the board but sufficiently good so that Cristiano Ronaldos strenght in the air wouldn't have to be sacrificed in order to get his more vital stats close to reality along with his weaker foot ability), but the probability of such a player appearing in the game would be very low. And allow weaker foot ability changes only if CA fluctuations allow it to happen without sacrificing other attributes.[/quote']

I agree with what you say..

And I want to add that if two footed players are better at shooting etc, why should their attributes drop? Instead it should be higher than the rest. I like the good old system where the attributes were same for weak/strong footed players.

In those good days I used to scout two players and see their attributes. And then I saw their "foot attributes" and chose the one with two good feets.. What was the flaw with that system????

[Dundalis]

Is that how it actually works? Because I don't know nor has anyone of your lot confirmed anything. I'm going by the assumption that two-footed players outperform one-footed ones in the ME. If your formula is correct then why is the weaker foot ability valued that high in CA points that a point more/less will affect other attributes severely?

The only attributes where two-footedness is a clear advantage are first touch' date=' passing, crossing and shooting/finishing. Show me a naturally right-footed player that takes the ball on his left when dribbling down the right. Or one that takes a free kick/penalty on his weaker foot. Nevermind marking or tackling or heading. If two-footed regens were balanced right and changes in weaker foot ability (which occur through re-training and general training on occasion) didn't cause attributes to rise/drop all over the board then you'd have a lot less of these complaints. Weaker foot ability needs to be tied to relevant attributes only. Hard to do, I understand, but this would be the realistic way.

In a way this highlights the weaknesses of the CA/PA system best. In FM universe a player that is quick, strong, technical and two-footed can't exist unless they're completely rubbish in every other area. What I would suggest is reducing the weightings in general so that a player with 200 ability could actually be 'the perfect player' (not 20s across the board but sufficiently good so that Cristiano Ronaldos strenght in the air wouldn't have to be sacrificed in order to get his more vital stats close to reality along with his weaker foot ability), but the probability of such a player appearing in the game would be very low. And allow weaker foot ability changes only if CA fluctuations allow it to happen without sacrificing other attributes.[/quote']

I agree with this. Basically under the current mechanism, a player like Cristiano Ronaldo, or lets say his predecessor, George Best, can't be represented correctly in the game. Sacrifices to stats have to be made in order to get it 'relatively' close. It's a clear imbalance.

What about someone whom is naturally ambidextrous? To simply say they are rare and therefore not worth catering for is hardly realistic. I believe Pavel Nedved is one such player. They would probably spend far less time training their weaker foot than someone not so, yet are penalised in game like the latter.

I don't even particularly want two footed players anymore when scouting, because extremely one footed players not only have better stats, but also perform better in game, and with more room for improvement and development as they will have far more skill points available to them.

[pauly1616]

as we only have "left" "left only" "both" "right" "right only" it's quite speculative. don't really know how good they are with it. should be a 20 point attribute too maybe

[Mitja]

What was the flaw with that system????

you didn't need to spend weeks fixing players' footedness before starting to play?

[Mitja]

I don't even particularly want two footed players anymore when scouting, because extremely one footed players not only have better stats, but also perform better in game, and with more room for improvement and development as they will have far more skill points available to them.

logically you're not, one-footed players will have all their attributes higher even by three points than two-footed. especially regens:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=112599

[Bigwig]

My main gripe with attributes is that ‘weighting’ is needed to get the balance right and has been for some time, but there doesn’t seem to be any effort to move away from this.

I remember when FM06 came out and Dean Ashton was initially given stats which were pretty realistic, but he was over performing in the ME so the solution was to drop his acceleration and pace to around the 9/10 mark in order to get him to perform to ‘realistic’ levels. Now that might have been well and good in order to get him to perform to a realistic level, but it’s giving him ‘false’ attributes which shouldn’t still be used as a workaround all these years later.

If a player has good attributes which exploit the ME then the solution is usually to drop other attributes to make sure they don’t over perform. I’ve just read a port in the Arsenal data thread saying that Walcott should have better crossing and the head researcher aggress, but because he’s got excellent acceleration and place he can’t do this so has to leave him with an unrealistic crossing stat which really shouldn’t still be happening.

When looking at potential signing the attributes are the first things you look at so they should be accurate enough to make an accurate assumption without having to figure out how weightings and two footedness comes into effect.

If I find a player with 20s across the board but only has a right foot and also find someone with 15s across the board but can use either foot, then it’s a complete no brainer which one I’m going to go for.

From comments in other threads it seems that SI are happy as long as players perform as they should in real life and if this means dropping their attributes to unrealistic levels then so be it. Obefemi Martins is just one example of a player who looks awful when you glance his stats, but his performance in the ME are similar enough to real life so that’s ok as far as SI are concerned, when it really shouldn’t be.

Unfortunately from Paul’s comments in this thread it sounds like SI are going to stick to the current system and tweak it to get the balancing right, when they really should be working their socks off to ensure that players have the ‘right’ attributes and perform to realistic levels.

[xx11]

My main gripe with attributes is that ‘weighting’ is needed to get the balance right and has been for some time, but there doesn’t seem to be any effort to move away from this.

.

they already stated that they will look at rebalancing the cost of WFA, which people should make people go "Ok, thanks lets see how that works out then"

If you see my stats for Ronaldo in the first 5 seasons and still think 2 footed players are seriously hurt then i guess ronaldo has to score 70+ goals a season from AMR to keep some people happy.... hmm thinking about it the stats were in the other thread i believe, so i put them here.

Ronaldo stats.

Season 1 - Appearances = 38(6) , Goals = 13 , Assists = 11 , Mom = 7 , Rating = 7.29

Season 2 - Appearances = 41(5) , Goals = 27 , Assists = 16 , Mom = 7 , Rating = 7.53

Season 3 - Appearances = 37(9) , Goals = 26 , Assists = 12 , Mom = 12 , Rating = 7.55

Season 4 - Appearances = 47(6) , Goals = 49 , Assists = 10 , Mom = 22 , Rating = 7.78

Season 5 (in december) - Appearances = 23(1) , Goals = 24 , Assists = 7 , Mom = 7 , Rating = 7.85

Season 1 was getting used to the system, season 2 and 3 were actually decent performances and up with the best in the world, season 4 and season 5 so far put him truelly beyond any other player in the game.

[jayahr]

Paul confirmed for a number of times now that he agrees that the weight of two-footedness is probably too high and that it will be tweaked for FM10.

Frankly, I don't see what's left to discuss then.

[Bigwig]

I’m not sure if you’ve understood my post because I’ve mentioned that the stats may be good, but the attributes also need to be realistic.

Ronaldo might well perform phenomenally, but glancing at his attributes they should also be representative of his real life stats and not tweaked so that he doesn’t ‘look’ as good as he should.

[jayahr]

Usually I don't brag about my posts, but I feel that this one from the other thread pretty much sums up why it works the way it does and why there is no better alternative than just tweaking. It was a reply to Mitja. So here it comes...

Okay, this will be long, but I'm aiming at getting this really clear

Actually I understand bigdunks argument perfectly fine.

He mentions the transfer system and the AI as those areas are and must be strongly linked.

I cannot help feeling like I have to repeat what he said in parts.

All players of CA 150 must be of about the same quality in the ME. I think that is clear. Otherwise the AI, that buys on CA and PA, would continously buy players of decent CA who don't perform well in the ME because the ME favours certain qualities more than others. Human users would quickly notice and could buy players who have those attributes although their CA isn't as high. If the game wouldn't work that way, we had a balancing disaster on our hands.

So far this is completely unrelated to WFA and I'm sure everyone agrees.

Then I also expect everyone to agree that if two players had the same attributes but for WFA, the player with the better WFA ability is the better player.

Of course if that is the case, the player with the better WFA must have a higher CA as otherwise would have the balancing problem mentioned above. It must remain paramount that players of equal CA perform more or less equally well.

That however means that there MUST be some weighting of WFA in the player ability. The WFA attribute is thus one of the attributes which are calculated into the CA or from the CA, depending on which way around you look at it. Depending on the player's position WFA will have a higher or lower value. So much again for your poll question. I hope there is no real disagreement about that anymore either.

Your main point, as I understand it, is now that the weight of WFA should only effect technical abilities, such as dribbling, first touch and so on, but not affect mental or physical stats which are not logically related to WFA.

I must say, that your two comparison screenies look impressive. It is hard to believe that actually both players have the same quality. I agree.

Then however I doubt that the weight of WFA can be calculated as easily as you argued before, i.e. that the weaker foot dribbling is 50% of the dribbling attribute for a WFA 10 player.

Also, if I imagine the worth of WFA, the technical attributes to which you would like to restrict the weighting effect would have to be lowered drastically to have it truly balanced in the ME. Thus if a good WFA is a real asset (which I think it is irl), the players with a good WFA would look very odd if your suggestion was implemented. You would have overall great players with really low technical attributes. I can't imagine any player to keep a dribbling attribute of 15 with WFA 20 if it was as you suggest. Also it would have the unrealistic effect that WFA players would be punished in an unrealistic way as the dribbling skills on the better foot would also be lowered to accomodate the player's WFA in a realistic way. That cannot be right either!

Thus it may seem odd that other attributes are effected as well although they are not logically linked to WFA at all (you are perfectly right there), but in order to avoid the unrealistic pattern I just described while still having all players of one CA perform equally in the ME, the weight of WFA must indeed also effect those other attributes. Remember, the balancing is the most important issue here. If the game did not do that, we had a problem. And as just using the technical attributes to balance this out would lead to results which would be unrealistic and undesirable for other reasons, this is the only way I'm afraid.

WFA is just another attribute which is weighted in the whole big calculation. It isn't any different than any other attribute. A high finishing for a striker, for instance, will also lead to 'penalties' in other areas although these attributes are in no way linked to the finishing ability. As nobody feels anything is wrong there, I don't understand why out of all this attribute should be weighted differently from all others.

That being said, I don't argue that there is nothing wrong here! You are touching on an area which certainly needs some work

Paul has now said a few times that he'll look into the extent in which WFA is weighted in different positions. As it stands now, the attribute penalty seems a bit too high (your screeinies are a good example) and indeed players with a high WFA might not perform as well in the ME as players of the same CA with a low WFA who have better attributes in other areas in return. Like C.Ronaldo or Messi who are very good players on the game but not the world-beaters they should be. It seems the weight is too high now, leading just to the unrealistic results in balance which must be avoided.

In order to achieve the balancing results which are needed the weight of WFA will have to be (and will be! as we know) tweaked for FM10. But neither removing the weight altogether nor restricting the way it is done to abilities which are directly linked to WFA is the right way to achieve the needed balance. It should just keep used as an important attribute like all others.

I hope this clarifies a bit.

I didn't have the impression that bigdunk didn't understand you at all. You just got you wires crossed.

[jayahr]

I’m not sure if you’ve understood my post because I’ve mentioned that the stats may be good, but the attributes also need to be realistic.

Ronaldo might well perform phenomenally, but glancing at his attributes they should also be representative of his real life stats and not tweaked so that he doesn’t ‘look’ as good as he should.

I agree with you that in general the ME should be tweaked to achieve realistic performances and not player attributes artificially and unrealistically dropped.

Yet, here the ME itself seems to be quite fine and what is wrong is that the decline in attributes weighs more than the benefit from two-footedness. That can be solved by a tweak of the ME (increase effect of two-footedness) or by a lower weight of the WFA attribute (I prefer the latter as for the rest the ME seems fine). Anyway, it needs a tweak, not a change in system (as pointed out in the long post above).

And as that it looks just like any other tweak which is or was necessary for the balancing of FM over the years and not like a new or fundamental issue with the game.

[Mitja]

these are best 37 players sorted by their attributes and position, using the default database:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7898/bestbyposition.jpg

as you can see there are only two players with CA more than 180 (Casilias and Buffon).

so what is the formula to calculate player's 'real ability' including his weak foot ability?

[Mitja]

double post

[jayahr]

these are best 37 players sorted by their attributes and position, using the default database:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7898/bestbyposition.jpg

as you can see there are only two players with CA more than 180 (Casilias and Buffon).

so what is the formula to calculate player's 'real ability' including his weak foot ability?

One that has to be kept secret (SI make their livings out of their code) and, definitely, tweaked

edit: And the fact that goalkeepers are affected the least just proves that point, as WFA has the lowest weight for goalkeepers.

[PaulC]

WFA weighting is the same across the board for all positions in FM2009. This is being changed for FM2010. Other than that, Jayahr 's post above is pretty much bang on the money.

[Dundalis]

logically you're not, one-footed players will have all their attributes higher even by three points than two-footed. especially regens:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=112599

I have done some tests already to work out what the difference is. Altering a player to have 20 stats across the board, and CA/PA 200, using the editor, then starting a new game.

All personality type attributes of course were free.

All visible playing attributes, bar flair, determination, aggression and natural fitness altered from the entered 20 attribute, meaning these attributes are free.

With weak foot at 1, all attributes altered to 18, bar acceleration, agility, balance and pace, which were 19. This was for players of basically all positions.

With weak foot at 20, all attributes were altered to 14, bar acceleration, agility, balance and pace, which were all 18. Note this was only for players with positions of attaching midfield and forward. Players whose positions included central defender, and no attacking midfielder/forward positions had all aforementioned attributes at 15, with those other 4 attributes remaining at 18.

With only CA/PA altered to 5 each, all stats were 3, bar acceleration, agility, balance and pace, which were all 13.

So looks to me that flair, determination, aggression and natural fitness are all free, while acceleration, agility, balance and pace are only very lightly weighted by the CA attribute.

The difference between a weak foot 1 and 20 is as high as 4 extra points across every other heavily weighted attribute of which their are 28. So 114 extra skill points. Plus 1 point for each of those lightly weighted attributes, makes it 118.

Having a central defensive position, without any attacking ones can give an extra point across all heavily weighted attributes, but only seemingly up to a point, as with all skill points available (i.e. weak foot at 1), there was no extra point divvied up among the heavy weighted attributes regardless of position, 18 across the board there seems max.

I haven't done much more testing than that, but it is quite interesting. As it stands with the thread though, that does seem to be a big chunk of skill points taken away from a player because of two footedness.

[jayahr]

Paul confirmed it's up to 30 CA points.

[Mitja]

The difference between a weak foot 1 and 20 is as high as 4 extra points across every other heavily weighted attribute of which their are 28. So 114 extra skill points. Plus 1 point for each of those lightly weighted attributes, makes it 118.

I haven't done much more testing than that, but it is quite interesting. As it stands with the thread though, that does seem to be a big chunk of skill points taken away from a player because of two footedness.

4 points across the board?? ...lol

you should have posted the screanies, wanna bet next year at this time we'll still be making these experiments..

[Dundalis]

4 points across the board?? ...lol

you should have posted the screanies, wanna bet next year at this time we'll still be making these experiments..

You asked for it:

I opened them with FMRTE, but they are unaltered from the start of the game. The only difference is one has weak foot 1, one has weak foot 20, as can be seen.

As can also be seen there are free attributes, and lightly weighted attributes.

[Dundalis]

Paul confirmed it's up to 30 CA points.

That's rubbish if that's meant to be the difference between weak foot 1 and 20 and with equal CA. Don't even need to do the experiment to see that the stats of players in the game are far more beefed up than that in favour of lower weak foot players. Even a difference of just 5 points in weak foot seems to show a clear discrepancy in game.

[iamjerome]

incredible.

[Mitja]

what's incredible here?

[iamjerome]

the fact that the game sees the either-footed version of that player as of the same 'value' as the one-footed version

[Mitja]

agreed, that's really incredible

[SFraser]

You need to take into account that attributes do not get distributed overtime through gameplay like those screenshots, they are naturally weighted in favour of a players position and that actual difference in positional ability ingame between for example two strikers with weakfoot 1 and weakfoot 20 will be a lot smaller.

The weighting of the weakfoot attribute is very heavy, but you must factor into account that not all technical, mental and physical attributes are necessary for all positions and that to provide any kind of functional balance between the ingame effects of high and low weakfoot attributes in comparison to technical, mental and physical ability the weighting has to take into account the lack of necessity of all attributes and the distribution over time of positional attributes.

In short the weakfoot attribute penalises all attributes significantly because not all attributes are required for high positional relative ability and the benefit of having a high weakfoot attribute in the game is significant. With any smaller relative weighting of the weakfoot attribute clearly the difference ingame between two strikers of weakfoot 1 and weakfoot 20 would be absolutely huge.

[jayahr]

That's rubbish if that's meant to be the difference between weak foot 1 and 20 and with equal CA. Don't even need to do the experiment to see that the stats of players in the game are far more beefed up than that in favour of lower weak foot players. Even a difference of just 5 points in weak foot seems to show a clear discrepancy in game.

I have no reason to doubt that Paul is telling the truth to us.

And Paul said he agrees it's not right as it is now and will be amended. What are you on about?

[PaulC]

There isnt really much more to say here, as its being changed slightly for FM2010 anyway. If any of you are beta testers for us you will no doubt get a chance to assess it sooner rather than later.

Cheers,

Paul

[peter-evo]

There isnt really much more to say here, as its being changed slightly for FM2010 anyway. If any of you are beta testers for us you will no doubt get a chance to assess it sooner rather than later.

Cheers,

Paul

Good to hear Paul

[Mitja]

........'slightly'

[drunkpunk]

Glad to hear the weighting is being changed for FM2010. I have to agree that for attacking players two footedness is very much different than for defensive players. For GK's the the impact of two footedness needs to reduced a lot. After all it mainly only impacts on kicking.

[Dundalis]

I honestly don't see why two footedness has such a 'major' impact for attacking players. I mean the greatest player to ever play the game was as one footed as you like. If I look at players in real life, I would never say one player of similar ability and talent is necessarily better than the next due to his being better on his wrong foot.

Kaka is a fantastic two footed player, but he isn't better than the more one footed Messi, though they have similar levels of ability which wouldn't be reflected in the game. Perhaps not the best example, as Messi is I think a bit better in the game on his wrong foot than he is irl.

I just don't understand why two footedness should have an impact on ability, much less a major one, when irl as long as you can at least give off a decent pass with your wrong foot and are reasonable enough with it, dual footed players aren't really lauded that much over one footed ones.

I don't think it should carry anymore weight than any of the attributes that are given 'free' in the game.

[Jack Rudd]

Well, the attributes that are given free in the game tend not to be ones that affect the match engine. A CA 150 Professionalism 20 player will perform at about the same level on the pitch as a CA 150 Professionalism 1 player; the former, however, is much more likely to remain at a high CA for a long time.