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Are Some Games Simply Unwinnable?


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I am with Cardiff City in the Premier League. Third Season. I'm 11th so doing okay. My away form is beyond abysmal.

I've been experimenting with tactics to try and see how I get on in a bid to improve my away form.

I have tried almost every tactic on here - certainly the most recommended ones. I have also tried my own developed tactics.

Like I said, I'm 11th - the test game, away at Portsmouth, who are 19th. It's Jan 15th.

So, I've tried all sorts of tactics. And mixed the team talks up too.

I've now played the same game 10 times.

Won: 0 Drawn: 1 Lost: 9

The one drawn game was a jam - shots / on target were 22/6 - 3/1 to them.

I'm 11th, they're 19th!

The usual pattern seems to be that I concede at least two in the first half - often one in the first ten mins. Maybe I pull one back in the second half and then invariably conceded another.

I know I'm away but come on...not one win in ten attempts. Rubbish.

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I would say that in this game you have they motivating or/and form against you. There could be other issues to. Are they playing a 41221 with the DM having a awfull lot of ball, are their fbs also haing to much timeon the ball, finally dragging your wingers out of positions etc etc?

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I was China in the world cup finals and playing Ivory Coast to make it to the next round, I must have played the game over and over about 25 times and drew once and lost all the rest, tried all different tactics and never won, i gave up and accepted my defeat with billions of Chinese fans weeping at my loss and just carried on the game a few days later(took a whole 3 hours playing the game over and over) FRUSTRATING!!!! :p

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Some games are un-winnable in my opinion(un-less you are willing to spend 30 mins setting up a tactic each match). Sometimes you get an injured player meaning you have to put in an in-experienced player and he has a poor match (Which happened to me, the same player gifting a goal away in each reloaded attempt to win - untill I started a game without him and made a new shape to accommodate a CM instead of the winger).

Sometimes you will have terrible defenders who don't match the opposition for attributes, in this case you will lose no matter what settings you use(I have a game saved: Wigan Vs Liverpool- I must have played this match at least 15 times and each time I have lost. :()

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Its those unbalanced away games that is the problem in 9.0.3 patch. SI has made something very wrong. They try so much to make game result look like real world result that they have given home team too much "boost". Home games are too easy, away games are too difficult. The game balance is not right and that makes some games impossible to get a good result, no matter what you do.

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If you have changed tactic for each try at the match then you will lose because your team wont be used to tactic.

Perhaps - but unfortunately I don't believe this factor impacts the AI. Look at their matches, they often switch from say a 451 to a 442. Then to the mystical 424. Seems to have little negative impact on them and they tend to perform much better after switching around.

Also the team cohesion stuff - if that was really an issue how come Man City repeatedly are in the top 2 or 3 in the new patch? (at least in my games). They buy and use daft numbersof players yet get lots of good results that seem to ignore this cohesion effect.

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Perhaps - but unfortunately I don't believe this factor impacts the AI. Look at their matches, they often switch from say a 451 to a 442. Then to the mystical 424. Seems to have little negative impact on them and they tend to perform much better after switching around.

Also the team cohesion stuff - if that was really an issue how come Man City repeatedly are in the top 2 or 3 in the new patch? (at least in my games). They buy and use daft numbersof players yet get lots of good results that seem to ignore this cohesion effect.

And here you are confusing formation with tactic. I don't think it's relevant in this specific case though. However, if the OP continues just changing tactics, teamtalks, etc. without observing what exactly going on on the pitch, he will never fix the problem.

How did AI score? Were there similar situations when AI did not score? Why couldn't you score? Were there pattern (e.g. your forward constantly tried to run with ball and lost it all the time)? Basically, the idea is that if you have a weak link in the squad, AI will use it. My example: I played against Aston Villa and 2 of my DCs were injured, the other two were ok, but not too good in the air. First 15 minutes - AV completed 4 out of 54 crosses, Carew scored 1, missed 2, one saved by GK. Solution - moved Cahill to DC position. Result - air was cleared, won game after all. The next game I put Cahill as DC at the beginning.

Note that your 'weak link' (or links) may not have bad rating. If your DM is asked to close down all over the pitch and he does - he will have his 6.8 even if all goals will come from his empty zone, because he has been chasing the ball somewhere else, as instructed. If you put slow def on the spot and he is constantly beaten - it's not his fault. Etc.

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You should try smoking a cigar. They are terrific. :thup:

Glass of cognac for you instead though Gilles but only if you win. ;)

C.

Not sure about the cigar myself, but thanks for the prize.

To me it's clear that the game is not "plug-and-play" anymore, you can't just plug the tactic and send your eleven to play. That's why there aren't super-tactics anymore. You need to spend time preparing the match. I know many people like to play fast and build up long careers and spending so much time for each game sounds like a drag, but I'm finding it fun, and it's more rewarding.

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Not sure about the cigar myself, but thanks for the prize.

To me it's clear that the game is not "plug-and-play" anymore, you can't just plug the tactic and send your eleven to play. That's why there aren't super-tactics anymore. You need to spend time preparing the match. I know many people like to play fast and build up long careers and spending so much time for each game sounds like a drag, but I'm finding it fun, and it's more rewarding.

+1

Actually, I don't understand fun of 'plug-and-play' games. Just satisfy my ego of seeing Derby on the top of the league?

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quite simply course the games arent unwinnable. it sounds so clichéd but you simply have to get your tactics spot on. normally against big sides just crowd your own penalty box, learn to keep the ball well, lots of passing, average mentality. etc etc

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I've found that by simply watching the game on Full Match for, say, the first ten minutes of a game I can usually suss out what the AI is doing.

For instance:

Are they constantly isolating your fullbacks by overloading his flank with overlapping runs by the fullback, thereby creating dangerous situations where they can put good crosses into the box? Adjust your tactic to compensate for this (perhaps put your own wingers on man-marking their fullbacks), watch a few minutes more on Full Match to make sure your changes had the desired effect and then go back to Extended Highlights.

I did this in a very tricky away tie with Arsenal and went from feeling very overpowered to feeling rather secure - until I noticed that the AI had changed behavior. Their fullbacks no longer bombed forward, so I took off man-marking on my wingers again. As long as you actually take the time to watch what the AI is doing it's often simply a case of adjusting your tactics slightly and you're fine.

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I am with Cardiff City in the Premier League. Third Season. I'm 11th so doing okay. My away form is beyond abysmal.

I've been experimenting with tactics to try and see how I get on in a bid to improve my away form.

I have tried almost every tactic on here - certainly the most recommended ones. I have also tried my own developed tactics.

Like I said, I'm 11th - the test game, away at Portsmouth, who are 19th. It's Jan 15th.

So, I've tried all sorts of tactics. And mixed the team talks up too.

I've now played the same game 10 times.

Won: 0 Drawn: 1 Lost: 9

The one drawn game was a jam - shots / on target were 22/6 - 3/1 to them.

I'm 11th, they're 19th!

The usual pattern seems to be that I concede at least two in the first half - often one in the first ten mins. Maybe I pull one back in the second half and then invariably conceded another.

I know I'm away but come on...not one win in ten attempts. Rubbish.

Hmm you're in your third season in the premiership? I'd assume you already have a favored style of play. And that you have different strategies under your hat for different opponents. Furthermore you've also tried watching the games on extended highlights. And, if you've noticed that the majority of highlights are of the AI, you'd have made changes since the game is clearly telling you that you are not the dominant side.

Furthermore, I would have thought, seeing that you aren't yet a top side, that you would adopt a more cautious approach in every game and try and contain the other side by using OI and the right teamtalks in every match. You would also have tried to combat what the AI throws at you as a tactic, if you see them coming at you with a 433, you would know that your fullbacks will be defending 100% of the time unless you make sure their fullbacks don't have time on the ball, or you could alternatively play with an AMC thus giving them a headache, since they would have loaded up on the flanks and left the centre vulnerable.

There are various ways of playing the game and an innumberable list of tweaks that can be made. Unfortunately most people seem to think that having a range of tactics is enough, when in reality only 3 are needed to give you different attacking options, the in game tweaks one needs to make could lie with changin defensive lines, tempo, passing patterns and even width.

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Its those unbalanced away games that is the problem in 9.0.3 patch. SI has made something very wrong. They try so much to make game result look like real world result that they have given home team too much "boost". Home games are too easy, away games are too difficult. The game balance is not right and that makes some games impossible to get a good result, no matter what you do.

I would say the balance between home and away game in 9.0.3 is nicely done tho. You can see in real life even Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea will find it very tight to beat a spiritual team at their home, even with superior players in quality.

I have just finished a season with Leverkusen with 9.0.3 and i had the best away record in the league with 10W 4D 3L.

Here are some basic sets of tactic you need if you want to success in 9.0.3:

1, A patient, short passing attacking tactic. (Best against counter attack team, eg. 4-4-2, 5-3-2)

2, A high pressure attacking tactic. (Best against ultra defensive, time wasting team eg. 4-5-1, 3-5-2)

3, A quick, counter attack tactic (Best against all attacking team eg. 4-1-3-2, 4-1-4-1)

4, A slow, time wasting defensive tactic (Best for holding a lead or get a draw, by the same time you dont want to risking counter attack eg. 4-5-1)

While many people in here complaining they cant win a game, actually they dont even know what kind of tactic the AI are playing. Lets say if you are away and up against a team playing a patient attacking tactic, and you blindly use a defensive quick counter tactic, you are simply giving all of your procession to the AI. Instead, the only way to beat them is using a patient tactic and out beat them in the midfield.

Another example, if you away against a far weaker team and they are playing ultra defensive and time wasting tactic, then neither a slow patient attacking tactic or counter attack will work. The thing you might need now is a high pressure tactic with medium tempo and mixed passing, in order to false them making error in their own half and punish them.

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There are some games nearly unwinnable (certainly not 100% unwinnable) for the following reasons:

(1) you are against an obviously better opponent.

(2) you've got some problems in your tactic.

(3) AI is just unreasonably favoured before the match actually begins, which I would like to say AI is cheating.

Most of the cases are (2) IMO. But (3) does happens a couple of times per season if your team has played "too" well, in which you will have complete domination in every statistics but your opponents will be just very lucky to overcome you. My suggestion is forget about that and move on to the next game.

Cheers

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There are some games nearly unwinnable (certainly not 100% unwinnable) for the following reasons:

(1) you are against an obviously better opponent.

(2) you've got some problems in your tactic.

(3) AI is just unreasonably favoured before the match actually begins, which I would like to say AI is cheating.

Most of the cases are (2) IMO. But (3) does happens a couple of times per season if your team has played "too" well, in which you will have complete domination in every statistics but your opponents will be just very lucky to overcome you. My suggestion is forget about that and move on to the next game.

Cheers

I don't mean to be rude but that is absolute nonsense catafan.

First of all, you make two good points. Then you go and ruin it with the third idea.

There is no AI cheating. :rolleyes:

Of course, there is just plain luck (yes, this is reflected in the game by an element of randomness).

But most of it will be down to the manager if he cannot win a game, for instance:

- bad motivation due to poor press conference/team talk.

- poor tactical choices.

- poor squad selection.

- negative personality traits of the team he has picked.

- low team gelling.

- having inconsistent players or players who do not perform well in big matches.

C.

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But most of it will be down to the manager if he cannot win a game, for instance:

- bad motivation due to poor press conference/team talk.

- poor tactical choices.

- poor squad selection.

- negative personality traits of the team he has picked.

- low team gelling.

- having inconsistent players or players who do not perform well in big matches.

C.

Well I knew there will be dispute about AI-cheating.

Firstly if a bad result is because of bad luck, it can be eliminated by repeating the matches for 10-20 times. If only a few of the repeats generate a bad result and the most look normal, that is bad luck. But if the bad results are fairly consistent among these repeated games, I would like to say it is because of something else. Do you agree?

Then what is the "something else"? It could be tactic problem of course, or other reasons you have mentioned. But I think all of these can be ruled out if your team do perform very well and outplay your opponent in ball control, passing, tackling, shooting etc. except goals. At the same time your opponent scores in a very limited number of chances which is done by players with very mediocre or even poor attrubites. And more importantly, this situation is repeatable by running this match again and again. IMO AI decides luck biasedly.

Fortunately this situation only happens a couple of times a season. Here is one of them, last season I using Chelsea to play against Eventon and the match was repeated 20 successive times without changing tactics (because I think the tactic has done its job--absolute domination) or players (they did perform well on-pitch). You are welcome to give an analysis for these.

The start-up

2vc7va8.jpg

And the results (in the order as they happened):

25i5f1x.jpg

2cghohy.jpg

2ro5fz4.jpg

(to be continued)

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Its those unbalanced away games that is the problem in 9.0.3 patch. SI has made something very wrong. They try so much to make game result look like real world result that they have given home team too much "boost". Home games are too easy, away games are too difficult. The game balance is not right and that makes some games impossible to get a good result, no matter what you do.

I do agree over-confidence is one of the main factor your team cant beat a weaker side. You can see the signs of it by the motivation panel during match, pre-match assistant analysis, or post match team talk. (The player who "didnt seen to listen" are mostly likely over praised and over-confident)

For me, once my team take a few win in a row, i will start to tighten up and being harsh to the team in order to prevent over-confident effect.

For example:

1. No matter home or away, if the odds is in favor with my team, i will use "I expect a win" in pre-match team talk, "dont let your performance drop" in half time, and "warn against complency" post match.

2. Whenever a player get a 6.7 or lower, i will use disappointed or angry. (6.7 is the break point for this)

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To catafan:

I think it is down to the team morale/confidence effect. So no matter how much time you replay the match, the damage or problem is already there and you simply cant overcome it by anything on the match day. (Change tactic, team talk etc...)

PS: If the AI do cheat than you should not even be able to win a single match out of them. (But you did :D )

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To catafan:

I think it is down to the team morale/confidence effect. So no matter how much time you replay the match, the damage or problem is already there and you simply cant overcome it by anything on the match day. (Change tactic, team talk etc...)

PS: If the AI do cheat than you should not even be able to win a single match out of them. (But you did :D )

The morale was at top level because the team had won all the matches before that. I don't think SI will let AI cheat too blatantly (i.e. to make the user have 100% unwinnable matches), that will screw up the sales of this game.:)

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Its those unbalanced away games that is the problem in 9.0.3 patch. SI has made something very wrong. They try so much to make game result look like real world result that they have given home team too much "boost". Home games are too easy, away games are too difficult. The game balance is not right and that makes some games impossible to get a good result, no matter what you do.

couldn't agree more! I hopen for change in fm10, but it's horiible that the final patch turns out this bad.

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Its those unbalanced away games that is the problem in 9.0.3 patch. SI has made something very wrong. They try so much to make game result look like real world result that they have given home team too much "boost". Home games are too easy, away games are too difficult. The game balance is not right and that makes some games impossible to get a good result, no matter what you do.
And the last one.

2q8u2l1.jpg

And you can see I only won 2 games out of 20 when dominating 19 of them.

Sorry about flooding pictures. But they are straightforward, aren't they?

Don't apologize for posting evidence on a hugely important problem that has to be fixed.. If it wasn't for people like you and there were only some moans/rants without anything to back them up, we probably wouldn't get these kind of problems fixed. So thank you for putting work into this. I really hope SI fix this.

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The morale was at top level because the team had won all the matches before that. I don't think SI will let AI cheat too blatantly (i.e. to make the user have 100% unwinnable matches), that will screw up the sales of this game.:)

To be honest you will find most "over-confident" players on "superb morale", they are two different thing.

So if your team is already suffer from the "over-confident" effect, no matter what you do they will only give 50% or less effort in match and thats the reason why you cant even beat weaker team.

Once they lost a game and get the hairdryer, they will turn back to normal.

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So if your team is already suffer from the "over-confident" effect, no matter what you do they will only give 50% or less effort in match and thats the reason why you cant even beat weaker team.

How could you explain that "50% or less effort in match" lead to a complete domination against the home team?

If my players were really lacklustre and performed awfully on the pitch (which often happens when I lead by 3 goals or more) I will have nothing to complain about. But they did their job well, and the only reason they cannot win is bad luck before the goal while the opponent had a good luck only before the goal. If that bad/good luck is repeatable (i.e. pre-decided before the game starts), isn't it a kind of set-up (cheating)?

Cheers

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Catafan - would you upload your game on the Everton v Chelsea match?

I believe that this might be a tactical issue.

In most of the screenshots, Everton have a large percentage of their shots on target (at least 60%). On the other hand, you normally have just 30% of your shots going on target.

I don't experience these kind of stats on my game. I wonder if this is the problem?

C.

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Catafan - would you upload your game on the Everton v Chelsea match?

I believe that this might be a tactical issue.

In most of the screenshots, Everton have a large percentage of their shots on target (at least 60%). On the other hand, you normally have just 30% of your shots going on target.

I don't experience these kind of stats on my game. I wonder if this is the problem?

C.

Sorry I didn't save those pkm files.

Maybe tactic issue could result in a low SoT/Shoots ratio, but how could you explain less SoT results in more goals, especially when they have poor attributes? Have a look at the stats of any top-class striker, what is the Goal/SoT/Shoots ratio for them?

Do you think it is reasonable that a bunch of mediocre players can achieve a repeatable high ratio of Goal/SoT/Shoots?

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Do you think it is reasonable that a bunch of mediocre players can achieve a repeatable high ratio of Goal/SoT/Shoots?

Of course it's reasonable. I can hit the target almost 100% under condition that I take a shot only when I am sure I will hit the target. I won't be able to take a shot more than a couple times per match under this condition even if I play in pick up game, but that's another question. If players are instructed properly, they won't take a shot every single time they near area.

Btw, with the original Everton squad (bought only one winger and had to replace one DC as he went to Chelsea) I won EPL and Euro Cup first season and enjoy life in the second. You are in 2012, but as far as I can see their squad is not much worse than the original one. Plus, as you said, you did not change the tactic since game 1 because you dominated. Everton would not even think about dominating against you. They would happily grant you all posession in the world, allow you to shoot from distance, etc. However, what they would try to utilze is the fact that Terry is not fastest def in the game; that your FBs often support attack; and that your domination would necessary create some space for quick forwards. Believe me, Fellaini and Arteta can create wonder out of nothing in FM09. I am not sure how Fellaini develops, but I think he is one of the best MCs in the game. Anyway, Everton does not want many chances, it wants a few but good ones. That's exactly what the stats and the results tell me - they stay back and catch their chances.

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Sorry I didn't save those pkm files.

What about the actual save game? Could you upload that?

Maybe tactic issue could result in a low SoT/Shoots ratio, but how could you explain less SoT results in more goals, especially when they have poor attributes?

This is my guess at the tactical problem here.

There is a low percentage of shots on target for you. This is probably because you are playing too cautiously against a defensive team. Your team is not creating a good quality of chances against the opposition. Very few are actually hitting the target.

You dominate the game, maybe through a 5 man midfield, maybe through short passing, but you fail to create good chances for your forwards.

For Everton, they sit back and soak up the pressure. They also keep the ball well.

My thought is that your team sits too deeply against Everton (mentality and defensive line) and therefore Everton are able to have space in your half to create solid chances. Hence, they have few shots (because they keep hold of the ball well) but they have time to make very effective shots on target.

I'm not going to argue about the rights and wrongs of this. However, when teams use the wrong tactical approach in real life, then they run into problems. It is the same in FM.

This is my best guess at your predicament.

I would suggest reviewing your mentality, width and defensive line settings. Why not have a read of TT&F (or perhaps even my thread - 'SIMPLICITY').

C.

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Of course it's reasonable. I can hit the target almost 100% under condition that I take a shot only when I am sure I will hit the target. I won't be able to take a shot more than a couple times per match under this condition even if I play in pick up game, but that's another question. If players are instructed properly, they won't take a shot every single time they near area.

Btw, with the original Everton squad (bought only one winger and had to replace one DC as he went to Chelsea) I won EPL and Euro Cup first season and enjoy life in the second. You are in 2012, but as far as I can see their squad is not much worse than the original one. Plus, as you said, you did not change the tactic since game 1 because you dominated. Everton would not even think about dominating against you. They would happily grant you all posession in the world, allow you to shoot from distance, etc. However, what they would try to utilze is the fact that Terry is not fastest def in the game; that your FBs often support attack; and that your domination would necessary create some space for quick forwards. Believe me, Fellaini and Arteta can create wonder out of nothing in FM09. I am not sure how Fellaini develops, but I think he is one of the best MCs in the game. Anyway, Everton does not want many chances, it wants a few but good ones. That's exactly what the stats and the results tell me - they stay back and catch their chances.

It's a pity that I cannot upload 20 pkm files for the matches. And if I could, you will find that most of your conjectures are not the case. Everton did not beat my defence in contra-attack, and they just have some normal but not good chances in which the ball simply passed through my GK and made a goal. They struggled to defence against my midfielders and strikers nearly all the time. Most of my shoots were not from distance. The opponent GK just kept stopping the shoots in a crazy fasion. My FBs and DCs had defensive mentality and they rarely went into the opponent half. All these will be OK if happened only once or twice, but not if repeats 20 times. PS, I don't know much about Fellaini irl, but in FM09 he is far from the level of the best MCs according to his attributes, forms and stats.

I know that no matter how many more details I describe about these matches, one who does not believe AI cheats will find an excuse for any piece of incident in the match (I can do that also if I would like to). Because it seems impossible for us to crack fm.exe, let people do their own judgement about AI-cheating, which is what I can only say.

Cheers

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I think you'll eventually notice that some results seem to be "arranged" beforehand.

I've lost count of the number of times as Barcelona, where the pre-game prediction is a draw and "it'll go down to penalties"

Despite me battering the opposition in some of these, woe and behold, we go to Pens :lol:

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What about the actual save game? Could you upload that?

I would suggest reviewing your mentality, width and defensive line settings. Why not have a read of TT&F (or perhaps even my thread - 'SIMPLICITY').

I do have a saved game specific for that match, but I wouldn't share it to public because my Real Name is in it. Sorry for that privacy reason.

I keep that saved game because I use it for tactic study. I'm not a bad tactic-maker and I've read TT&F since FM07 although I don't completely agree with its concents (some fundamental assumptions seem unreliable). My team only draw or lose a few games per season with a goal/concede=3.5/0.5 per game, and that's why I am sensitive to unreasonable situations. Each time I think a match look unreasonable I save it as another saved file and repeat it for quite a few times to see where the problem is. Most of them is because I was just unlucky and the situations are back to normal in the repeats. But a few of them are not (like the one above) which have a common feature that they are after a long winning streak or longer unbeaten streak. It's not unreasonable to say that SI has done something to prevent the final results looking unrealistic, is it?

Cheers

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I do have a saved game specific for that match, but I wouldn't share it to public because my Real Name is in it. Sorry for that privacy reason.

Why not save it under a different name and 'retire' the manager so he is no longer in the game.

But a few of them are not (like the one above) which have a common feature that they are after a long winning streak or longer unbeaten streak. It's not unreasonable to say that SI has done something to prevent the final results looking unrealistic, is it?

The game doesn't cheat!

I cannot believe that there are limits in the game. Otherwise there wouldn't be people posting up screenshots of their team unbeaten for whole seasons etc.!

C.

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