New FM Live 1.2 Tactic system

[Mitja]

jascko, I completly agree with your post mate but I don't get where did you get the fact that it is esasier to play short passing game than direct/long? every team would play like Barca then. I agree there will be higher percentage of completed passes, but to play short passing style succesfuly you need top-quality players (in movement, technique, passing, inteligence etc). that's why direct/long is much safer style (just keep the ball far from your area).

[jascko]

For Millie and Mitja: Now you see how a constructive discourse develops. I come with a hypothesis and you try with rational arguments to falsify that. This is what I'm missing on this forum rather than just simple "yes" or "no".

To further explain my stand point I will use point from my previous posts. Whether you are playing in lower division, you need to compare your players with other teams from the same division. No matter how bad your team is in relation to the values of passing and technique, is first and foremost against the other players in the same division you need to compare passing and technique values. No matter which team you are, some of your players will always be better in passing and technique than other players on your team. So these are the players who should have direct passing, while the others, you can keep on short passing. Thus you avoid the problem that the team only playing short between each other without progress. No matter how bad the pitch is, it is always just as bad for the opponent. It is primarily the tempo that is crucial in this case, and not passing. If the pitch is bad then you need to decrease the tempo, so that players can take time before they play the ball. The only problem with this is when you meet teams from higher divisions, then the opponent is so much better in all areas compared with your players, so you must consider giving direct or long passing to compensate for lack of technique. Fortunately, you do not meet these teams all the times, most of the time you play against the teams in your league. It is these variables that you must take into account.

In the lower divisions, it is not only the passing and technique among the players which is worse in comparison with the top league, but also all other values are much lower. This means that they are inferior to read the game, inferior to CD, poor stamina, speed, etc. Hence, your players, in spite of poor technique and passing, have a better time on the ball. It is namely the tempo that is critical if you lose the ball possession and the percentage of passing. That is why Arsenal can play short passing with a high tempo and still have high percentage of passing and possession, because passing and technique value are high throughout the team. The poorer team you play against the more you can increase the tempo as players get more time with the ball.

This is why my old couch always said to the rest of the players: “keep it simple”, which means play short and simple to somebody who has more creativity and technical skills than you, and let them make something constructive with the ball.

[Millie]

Well, in essence, this is why we believe the wizard will help people on these forums. Becasue we'll all be working (or can work, should we so choose) from the same book, using the same language. People will be able to say, "I set up a short-passing counter attacking game with Liverpool, based on a rigid structure and lots of closing down. I've got Gerrard as an advanced play maker. How can I make this stronger in the defence, without losing Gerrard's flair?" Just for example.

Those who want to do all that the old fashioned way can still say, "this is how I set it up. My full backs have similar settings to the 'wing backs' in the wizard".

I don't really want to dwell too much on the long ball/short ball debate as it isn't really the topic here, but I will ask (not intended as a slight on you, jascko) are you a non-British-based person? Because in England, a number of coaches (not saying this is right, mind you), would place emphasis on "safety first" long ball tactics and flood the defence and strike force with physically imposing players designed to out-muscle the opposition. I agree, "keeping it simple" means you hold on to the ball, but holding on to the ball isn't necessarily the most efficient way of scoring.

If I had a side who didn't have very tall players, I would certainly play short passing. Not so sure I would if I had a Heskey or a Zigic or a Koller playing up front.

But yes - we need more discussion, more dynamism in the engine and more engagement with football rather than engagement with which sliders produce the best results. I hope to see the end of people discussing tactics files and the start of people discussing passing philosophy. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that.

[AcidBurn]

Is there anymore information on how this wizard works? I dont understand what all the fuss is about I work long hours and dont have alot of time to read all the guides I just want to make a tactic and get going. I usualy download them and tweak to fit my players. How exactly does it work are there any screenshots anywhere?

I cant believe how people can have a go at users who just try to help people play the game, very strange in my opinion.

I like to play as Sunderland so if I wanted to play a 4-4-2 lump the ball up to Kenwyne Jones how do I input this into the wizard?

Sorry if these are stupid questions I am just curious.

[jascko]

Millie, I am open to the ideology behind the wizard. I have some doubts about it as many others, but all changes are now welcome in relation to my preferences. I can not stand complexity with the current system, with x number of clicks this or that way. I want to be able to apply simple instructions. I know what to do on the football field when the coach asks me to play behind def line of opposition, or when the team is position too high. In this game, I'm not sure what combination and how many clicks does what. So I will embrace yours and wwfans wizard with joy, and we will see if it hit properly with my and other's preferences. Whatever the outcome, I know how much work lies behind this and I appreciate that you try. But I don’t know if we will agree if this was the correct way to go before I try it.

Relationship between direct and short passing is off topic so we can take it another time. I'm not British, completely correct. But I follow football in England every weekend. I am fully aware of what type of football that is played over there. But I disagree that the majority of the coaches over there consider the long ball as safety. It depends on the team and the opposition. If opponent has placed themselves low and without high pressure, I bet that no coach will say to their CB to play long balls. What they will probably do is telling their CBs to play short to those who can do something with the ball. They will play long only in the situations where the pressure is on the CBs. But Millie, how many times during a game they are under high pressure? This is also the weakness of FM, there is no opportunity to give instructions to players depending on the situation. I can put them on mix passing but then they will use their own intelligence to decide which passing is right to play. We all know from experience that this works very poorly on FM. Some of the top players are acting like a bunch of sheep who have never seen a ball before in their life. At the same time, I have no opportunity to explain that I want them to play short when they are not under pressure and play long when they are under pressure (which means "clear the ball!")

I m not saying that all players should play short. In RL is most talented player who plays direct passing on the basis of their technical skills, while others plays short because these are the easiest to implement. Thus players with direct passing are the one who will be responsible for progression. This was my point.

Fully agree that we need more exchange of arguments to come closer to an eventual consensus.

[Ov Collyer]

Is there anymore information on how this wizard works? I dont understand what all the fuss is about I work long hours and dont have alot of time to read all the guides I just want to make a tactic and get going. I usualy download them and tweak to fit my players. How exactly does it work are there any screenshots anywhere?

I cant believe how people can have a go at users who just try to help people play the game, very strange in my opinion.

I like to play as Sunderland so if I wanted to play a 4-4-2 lump the ball up to Kenwyne Jones how do I input this into the wizard?

Sorry if these are stupid questions I am just curious.

There are some screenshots here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=112539

In answer to your question re: Sunderland, I think it would work like this:

- Step 1, you would choose a 4-4-2 formation from the list of 20 standard formations.

- Step 2, you'd probably leave 'Philosophy' on 'balanced', meaning your defenders generally defend, your attackers generally attack but they'll help out when needed (it is named 'Mentality System' in the screenshots, but has been renamed to 'Philosophy' since these were taken)

- Step 3 - you'd choose a 'Standard' match strategy for now. You can change this later, after you've created the tactic, but this would depend on what you needed out of the game. Away from home you could drop this to Defensive or Counter, at home you might go to a more attack orientated strategy.

- Step 4 - roles. Here you could choose 'Target Man' for one of your 2 centre forwards. This will be Kenwyne Jones' role.

- Step 5 - duties. You can leave these on the defaults.

- Step 6 - adjustments. You could set the passing adjustment to 'More Direct' to make sure your players are a bit more inclined to lump it forward early.

That's it, then you're done.

After that you could tweak it a bit - you could decide to play Jones slightly deeper than Cisse by making Cisse the 'Advanced Forward' and Jones a 'Target Man' with the 'Support' duty.

But the above steps would take you about 30s, and would set up all the underlying instructions for your players to suit - for example you don't need to worry about explicitly telling your team to use a target man via the 'Use Target Man' instruction - by assigning Jones as the target man it would be taken care of.

All your players would have sensible closing down, creative freedom, passing etc. according to the choices you have made above.

During the game, if things aren't going to plan - perhaps you go a goal down, then you could change your match strategy to 'Attacking'. This would automatically adjust numerous sliders underneath; for example, increase the tempo and width of your team, get your players closing down quicker to win the ball back, etc.

You might get a goal back, and then use the 'Take A Breather' touchline instruction for 10 minutes, which would slow things down (tempo) and reduce all your players' forward runs, perhaps in conjunction with 'Retain Possession' to shorten your passing a bit. Each of these would be a single click and actioned instantly. For the last 15 minutes, after you've conserved a bit of energy you might turn these off (two clicks) and push for the winner.

[Chandaman]

One thing is a defender just hoofing it high upfield just to clear it and see what happens, and another quite different is an AM that comes down to help with recovery, is given the ball, spots a winger/striker run and pinpoints a long ball to him.

As long as the game thinks both are "direct" or "long balls", that's a slight problem that will always clash with how humans understand the game.

--J.

[AcidBurn]

There are some screenshots here:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=112539

In answer to your question re: Sunderland, I think it would work like this:

- Step 1, you would choose a 4-4-2 formation from the list of 20 standard formations.

- Step 2, you'd probably leave 'Philosophy' on 'balanced', meaning your defenders generally defend, your attackers generally attack but they'll help out when needed (it is named 'Mentality System' in the screenshots, but has been renamed to 'Philosophy' since these were taken)

- Step 3 - you'd choose a 'Standard' match strategy for now. You can change this later, after you've created the tactic, but this would depend on what you needed out of the game. Away from home you could drop this to Defensive or Counter, at home you might go to a more attack orientated strategy.

- Step 4 - roles. Here you could choose 'Target Man' for one of your 2 centre forwards. This will be Kenwyne Jones' role.

- Step 5 - duties. You can leave these on the defaults.

- Step 6 - adjustments. You could set the passing adjustment to 'More Direct' to make sure your players are a bit more inclined to lump it forward early.

That's it, then you're done.

After that you could tweak it a bit - you could decide to play Jones slightly deeper than Cisse by making Cisse the 'Advanced Forward' and Jones a 'Target Man' with the 'Support' duty.

But the above steps would take you about 30s, and would set up all the underlying instructions for your players to suit - for example you don't need to worry about explicitly telling your team to use a target man via the 'Use Target Man' instruction - by assigning Jones as the target man it would be taken care of.

All your players would have sensible closing down, creative freedom, passing etc. according to the choices you have made above.

During the game, if things aren't going to plan - perhaps you go a goal down, then you could change your match strategy to 'Attacking'. This would automatically adjust numerous sliders underneath; for example, increase the tempo and width of your team, get your players closing down quicker to win the ball back, etc.

You might get a goal back, and then use the 'Take A Breather' touchline instruction for 10 minutes, which would slow things down (tempo) and reduce all your players' forward runs, perhaps in conjunction with 'Retain Possession' to shorten your passing a bit. Each of these would be a single click and actioned instantly. For the last 15 minutes, after you've conserved a bit of energy you might turn these off (two clicks) and push for the winner.

Sounds pretty good to me, thanks for taking the time to answer very helpful.

[wwfan]

An extra peice of information on how the match works. Ov and I, both having equally horrible teams in FML, played a test game between us. Based on previous discussions, I was pretty certain Ov was going to start extremely quickly and look to press and attack throughout the first 20 mins. As I was getting ready to go out and needed to pack my bag, I couldn't watch those first 20 mins, so decided to counter and press (both of which are one touch strategies) and OI his wingers to reduce any attacking space. Knowing Ov couldn't continue to play flat out without exhausting his team, I returned to the monitor after about 30 mins match time to adjust my own strategy. Seeing that he had stopped attacking but was still pressing reasonably aggressively, I deciding to switch to a control strategy, plus take extra decisions to widen play, drop deep and keep possession (all one touch adjustments). Doing that began to pull his players out of position as they had to drift outside of their formation to close my team down. Just before half time, my winger drew two of his players, laid it back to the full back who crossed to the target man. He chested it down, turned and played a through ball to my breaking MCa, who, now unmarked, slotted it home from just inside the area.

I started the second half focused once again on keeping the ball, standing off, sitting deep and conserving energy. Ov was now pressing and attacking hard to try and get into the match. Knowing that I'd have a condition advantage given how we'd both played up until then, at 60 mins I decided to sub off my lowest condition player (my Target Man, who actually had the highest match average) and replaced him with a Poacher. I made the ML/Rs more attack minded by changing their roles from wide-midfielders to wingers. I then pushed up, narrowed, pressed, got the ball forward quickly and countered (one touch adjustments). Within five minutes I had broken up an attack in the centre of the park and played a two-pass counter to the breaking poacher who got behind the defence and finished with ease. From that point on I played anti-football (defensive, narrow, pushing up, heavy pressing, man-marking) to see out the 2-0 win.

At no point did I leave the match screen. This was all done in standard FML highlight mode, which is somewhere between extended and key highlights in FM. It was a game of real time cat and mouse strategy which was highly enjoyable. What was key was exactly how noticeable all the tactical changes were, which allowed for counter strategies to be employed. On this occasion I got it right. Next, time it will be Ov's turn. Either way, and whatever the final results, it will be a lot of fun.

[TriAn]

The 9.3 ME only seems to have one major exploit, which is the corner bug. I haven't seen evidence of a second. Can you enlighten me.

Hi, wwfan.

May I do it? )

Players often choose obviously wrong position when they oppose attacker in wide areas and near byline.

PS: I'll try to write something more constructive later.

PPS: My English... Sorry...

[wwfan]

Hi, wwfan.

May I do it? )

Players often choose obviously wrong position when they oppose attacker in wide areas and near byline.

PS: I'll try to write something more constructive later.

PPS: My English... Sorry...

That's not an exploit though, but a bug. If it were an exploit, you'd be able to repeatedly use these situations to score a much higher than average number of goals in a manner the AI couldn't.

[TriAn]

I can use different quite strange methods to avoid this situation, AI cann't.

I can base my tactics on creating such situations, AI cann't.

I don't know whether it's bug or exploit. Doesn't matter to me how it will be called. )

[macdyne73]

One more thing I was thinking about, will the AI use the same set of tactics and instructions as the user? I hope so because then the playing field would be level. I don't think it's a good thing if differences in available tactical choices creates an advantage either to the AI or the user.

I know this point isn't very clear. Am I making any sense here?

[digsy11]

This all sounds fantastic. One thing I'd like Millie or Rich to answer is are there going to be tactical settings for special players I.E box to box midfielders or complete strikers ref: TT&F?

[Millie]

Quite a few of the player roles come directly from TT&F, yes.

[Ov Collyer]

Below is a summary of the higher-level controls, as per the latest FML Beta.

I should point out (since the initial changelist information that started this thread was a bit woolly) that the wizard is only a part of it. This is how you would create a tactic in the first place; all the higher level controls are available in the wizard, but crucially, once you have created a tactic, each of the below can *also* be adjusted without returning to the wizard, directly on the new tactics pages. This then re-calculates all the instructions/sliders underneath for all your players, using the new combination of high-level instructions you have now specified.

The shouted instructions (final section below) are not part of the wizard, and appear only on a special panel on the match page. These act as further modifiers to certain low-level controls to give some direct and intuitive access to changing stuff as the match ebbs and flows.

>>>>>

Available High-Level Instructions:

Managerial Philosophies

Very Rigid

More Rigid

Balanced

More Fluid

Very Fluid

Match Strategies

Contain

Defensive

Counter

Standard

Control

Attacking

Overload

Creative Freedom Adjustment

More Expressive

Automatic

More Disciplined

Closing Down Adjustment

Press More

Automatic

Stand-Off More

Passing Directness Adjustment

Shorter

Automatic

More Direct

Tackling Adjustment

More Aggressive

Automatic

More Cautious

Marking Adjustment

Zonal

Automatic

Man

Available Player Roles And Duties

Roles And Available Duties

D - Defend

DS - Defend Stopper

DC - Defend Covering

S - Support

A- Attack

Goalkeeper (D)

Central Defender (D, DS, DC)

Full Back (D, S, A)

Wing Back (D, S, A)

Defensive Midfielder (D, S)

Central Midfielder (D, S, A)

Wide Midfielder (D, S, A)

Winger (S, A)

Inside Forward (S, A)

Attacking Midfielder (S, A)

Deep-Lying Forward (S, A)

Advanced Forward (A)

Sweeper Keeper (D, S, A)

Sweeper (D)

Libero (S, A)

Ball-Playing Defender (D, DS, DC)

Deep-Lying Playmaker (D, S)

Box-To-Box Midfielder (S)

Advanced Playmaker (S, A)

Target Man (S, A)

Poacher (A)

Complete Forward (S, A)

Available Roles Per Position

GK - Goalkeeper, Sweeper Keeper

SW - Sweeper, Libero

D L/R - Full Back, Wing Back

D C - Central Defender, Ball-Playing Defender

DM L/R - Wing Back

DM C - Defensive Midfielder, Deep-Lying Playmaker

M L/R - Wide Midfielder, Winger

M C - Central Midfielder, Deep-Lying Playmaker, Box-To-Box Midfielder, Advanced Playmaker

AM/F L/R - Winger, Inside Forward, Advanced Playmaker

AM C - Attacking Midfielder, Advanced Playmaker

F C - Deep-Lying Forward, Advanced Forward, Target Man, Poacher, Complete Forward

Available In-Match 'Shouted' Instructions

Retain Possession

Get Ball Forward

Take A Breather

Play Wider

Play Narrower

Push Higher Up

Drop Back Deeper

Hassle Opponents

>>>>

[Gilles Domoraud]

So the in-match shouts are not changes in match strategy, just small changes in the current tactic you are using?

I am really glad this is being implemented! No more, getting hammered-> pause -> tactic change -> resume match -> oh wait they've gone 4-2-4 -> pause -> tactic change -> resume match -> oh they scored. damn. exit game. lol

[Millie]

So the in-match shouts are not changes in match strategy, just small changes in the current tactic you are using?

Both. You can shout to change match strategy (a choice from the list of 'match strategies' in the previous post) as well as having the smaller controls (listed under 'shouted instructions').

Or, you can shout out to change to a previously saved tactic file, if that's what you prefer doing.

Plus, you can make subs from the main match screen too, and shout your instructions to the lad coming on.

And this is just where we have it now. It may not stay like this by the time FML 1.2 and/or FM10 go live.

[Gilles Domoraud]

This sounds awesome

Edit: Do the changes take effect only when the ball goes out of play or is it done live in the match?

I hope changing my strategy from contain to overload wont see my left back suddenly run up front when the opposition have the ball in a dangerous position...

[Mitja]

there should be a playmaker role available for ML/R position! what type of role would players like Messi have, complete forward?

[Millie]

there should be a playmaker role available for ML/R position! what type of role would players like Messi have, complete forward?

If you want a playmaker playing in the MR position, that's where individual changes on the old system come in. I'm not sure it's a classic match strategy to use a winger or side midfielder as a playmaker. That's why (as yet) we've not put one in. But, by all means, if that's what you want to do then that's why the "classic" system is still there.

As for Messi, that all depends on how you want Messi to play. I'm not trying to be flippant here, but seriously - how do you want him to play? Try it in the system, and if it doesn't come off, then try something different.

That's the point of the system, after all.

[Mitja]

yes I understand he can play whatever 'role' I wish him to, what I meant is how would his real life role translate to FM role...since I wouldn't say he's the playmaker in Barca. I think it would be the closest to Copmlete Forward, Inside Forward maybe?

what about those players (like Ribery, Pires, Cazorla, Simao, Modric even CRonaldo maybe etc ) which play in traditional 442 formation and have plenty of freedom in their movement (not sticking to the wing) and play in general but they are 'wide playmakers'. maybe this role is not as common in british football..

imo these wide-playmaker roles (or whatever they're called) were almost imposible to recreate in FM09, 08, 07 etc. and such players were no where near as dangerus as they should be. the bigger problem is wingers' movement in ME than it is a tactical issue. imo you should try your best to improve this area (ML/R and AML/R) becouse some of the best world players play such roles..

[wwfan]

The argument we made relating to this was that a ML/R wouldn't be able to drift into space in the manner a playmaker needs to because of the tightness of the midfield. He's simply be marked out of the game. However, as the AML/Rs are usually in a little more space as they are in advance of the midfield, it would be possible for them to find enough room for the team to use them as a fulcrum.

[Mitja]

in addition to improving winger/wide mid's movement it would be exellant if we could choose which players provide width, via mentality and forward runs (in defensive strategies wingers, in attacking strategies full backs), or even better option would be via individual instructions/roles. then you could have one more traditional winger providing width and the other would be roaming playmaker with full back providing width etc...

[Millie]

yes I understand he can play whatever 'role' I wish him to, what I meant is how would his real life role translate to FM role...since I wouldn't say he's the playmaker in Barca. I think it would be the closest to Copmlete Forward, Inside Forward maybe?

Well, the thing is Mitja there is no "one" answer. Having not seen Messi play that much, I can't really say for definite "oh, Messi, well, of course, he is this role". It's dependent on so many factors, including how you set the rest of the team up, what you want him to do etc.

There's no one answer. Personally, at Barcelona on my current save, I play him as a winger on the right hand side. The whole point of this system will be for you to work out what he is and how he plays. When you see the settings in depth, maybe this will give you a better idea.

I'm not deliberately being vague here. This is something I don't know for sure, and ultimately something you need to find out (or as a group here on the forum, "we need to find out" ) for yourself.

what about those players (like Ribery, Pires, Cazorla, Simao, Modric even CRonaldo maybe etc ) which play in traditional 442 formation and have plenty of freedom in their movement (not sticking to the wing) and play in general but they are 'wide playmakers'. maybe this role is not as common in british football..

imo these wide-playmaker roles (or whatever they're called) were almost imposible to recreate in FM09, 08, 07 etc. and such players were no where near as dangerus as they should be. the bigger problem is wingers' movement in ME than it is a tactical issue. imo you should try your best to improve this area (ML/R and AML/R) becouse some of the best world players play such roles..

Are they playmakers in the truest sense though? My vision of a playmaker is someone in the centre of the field who receives the ball and looks to play people in or do something special himself to unpick the opposition. Whilst the players you mention do a lot of work from out wide, I don't really think they're playmakers in the traditional sense of the word.

What we do need is more options to allow these players to cut inside, make them cross earlier (big bugbear of mine ) and get them to look a little bit more for people in the middle of the park. However, I'm not entirely sure this is covered by a role such as a "wide playmaker". I think it's more of a side midfielder or winger who cuts in and perhaps crosses less.

Again, that's what the sliders are there for. The wizard itself is more designed around getting a solid, dependable tactic up and running. The fancy stuff should be down to your individual tastes and flamboyancy.

If you could give me, wwfan or Ov more details of what you think differentiates Ribery et al. from a side midfielder or a winger, or what specifically constitutes a wide playmaker, we can take a look at it, certainly.

[Mitja]

The argument we made relating to this was that a ML/R wouldn't be able to drift into space in the manner a playmaker needs to because of the tightness of the midfield. He's simply be marked out of the game. However, as the AML/Rs are usually in a little more space as they are in advance of the midfield, it would be possible for them to find enough room for the team to use them as a fulcrum.

imo in recent MEs, wide-mids do tend to lean much more towards AML/R positions (positionally they're too advanced) as I would expect, no metter their mentality/forward runs. irl some of these players I mentioned, use much more space in all directions (coming deep and centraly) and they link play but still providing width when needed..

[Mitja]

Millie

the whole Messi discussion here is not important as long as 'he' performs well in ME. I agree 120% with all 'cutting/moving in, roaming' things you mentioned and imo the lack of it makes these players under-rated in ME.

I agree that traditional playmaker is someone who plays in central positions, but the most simple definition of it would be 'a creative player responible for making things happen. the team will look to pass the ball to him as much as posible'. this player can play almost any position but logically he tends to move (and is instructed to) where things are happening the most - to central positions and come deep for the ball.

as for your last paragraph, I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious? players like Ribery are carries of their teams with 'absolute' freedom in their play. some have more of a playmaker roles and other have more scoring roles but almost every great team now has one of the best players in their team who plays in wide positions (Messi, CR, Robben, Sneijder, Ronaldinho, Figo, Nasri, Arshavin, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky, Cazorla, Silva, Nedved, Maxi, Young, Kranjcar, Modric, Navas, even the likes of Zidane, Del Piero, Raul, Gerrard, Robinho, Kaka, Lampard, Henry, Inesta, Guti, Seedorf were moved there ocasionaly). these players are surely more than just Crossing Wingers?

[Millie]

Millie

[...]

as for your last paragraph, I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious? players like Ribery are carries of their teams with 'absolute' freedom in their play. some have more of a playmaker roles and other have more scoring roles but almost every great team now has one of the best players in their team who plays in wide positions (Messi, CR, Robben, Sneijder, Ronaldinho, Figo, Nasri, Arshavin, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky, Cazorla, Silva, Nedved, Maxi, Young, Kranjcar, Modric, Navas, even the likes of Zidane, Del Piero, Raul, Gerrard, Robinho, Kaka, Lampard, Henry, Inesta, Guti, Seedorf were moved there ocasionaly). these players are surely more than just Crossing Wingers?

Oh, I agree. There is more to them than crossing wingers. This is what I agreed with you. We need them to be able to cut inside more and make more decisions than simply "run down the wing and cross, or pass to the full back" which is what a lot of the wide players do on the game.

My point was more what stops them from being a sidemidfielder (a player who doesn't cross so much and looks to lay people in through the centre of the pitch) and turns them in to a playmaker?

I'm not saying outright that they're not playmakers. I just wanted some specific information about what you think changes them from being a sidemidfielder and a winger and makes them a wide playmaker. In my opinion (not necessarily shared by all, and I welcome debate on the subject) Ribery, Robben, Ronaldinho etc. would be advanced playmakers in a wing position (which is possible via the wizard). At ML/MR, however, I'm not sure how it would work.

That's just my take on it. Like I said, if you have more specific ideas about what turns them into wide playmakers rather than advanced playmakers or wingers/side midfielders, we can take a look at it and see whether it's worth putting them into the system.

[ottey_swe]

The other thing that can increase unpredictability is having illogical tactics, which will be unpredictable in themselves. However, simple footballing logic, when applied, pretty much always works. What the new system will do is reduce the chances of creating a horribly illogical tactic and provide easy to access football logic instructions that can change things around.

I think these two changes are the best for ages (especially "easy to access controls"!! THUMBS UP!). Couldn't bother less about 3D and such when I hear about this. Maybe, when you've applied them, you could build on it for FM10/FM11 and create som sort of tutorial to how certain sliders interact, and how to apply these "easy to access-controls" ingame. Look att the total war series for instance, where you have a character at the upper left corner of the screen giving you advice in certain situations. Imagine you're fiddling around with your backline in the tactics section and don't really know how to form up, then this figure pops up an says something like "pushing up your defensive line enables you to control the game, as it gives your team more passing alternatives high up the field. But beware, slow defenders pushing up are vulnerable to fast counter attacks made by the other team. Be sure to use zonal marking and offside trap to avoid them getting through". This kind of feedback would do wonders for the game and make it feel like a simulation that teaches real life football to people that don't know much about it, and teaches you how to approach different situations.

All in all, delighted with the way FM is heading. Transparent, easy-to-access tactics (not necessarily easy) is what existing versions largely lack!

[ottey_swe]

It is by no means 1% unpredictable as it stands. There are many things you can do to increase your chances of doing well in any given situation. The only action that will make things seem unpredictable is doing nothing, as explained above.

The other thing that can increase unpredictability is having illogical tactics, which will be unpredictable in themselves. However, simple footballing logic, when applied, pretty much always works. What the new system will do is reduce the chances of creating a horribly illogical tactic and provide easy to access football logic instructions that can change things around.

Millie

the whole Messi discussion here is not important as long as 'he' performs well in ME. I agree 120% with all 'cutting/moving in, roaming' things you mentioned and imo the lack of it makes these players under-rated in ME.

I agree that traditional playmaker is someone who plays in central positions, but the most simple definition of it would be 'a creative player responible for making things happen. the team will look to pass the ball to him as much as posible'. this player can play almost any position but logically he tends to move (and is instructed to) where things are happening the most - to central positions and come deep for the ball.

as for your last paragraph, I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious? players like Ribery are carries of their teams with 'absolute' freedom in their play. some have more of a playmaker roles and other have more scoring roles but almost every great team now has one of the best players in their team who plays in wide positions (Messi, CR, Robben, Sneijder, Ronaldinho, Figo, Nasri, Arshavin, Pires, Hleb, Rosicky, Cazorla, Silva, Nedved, Maxi, Young, Kranjcar, Modric, Navas, even the likes of Zidane, Del Piero, Raul, Gerrard, Robinho, Kaka, Lampard, Henry, Inesta, Guti, Seedorf were moved there ocasionaly). these players are surely more than just Crossing Wingers?

Try setting his creative freedom to 20, crossing medium, give him a free role and set him to playmaker? Messi performing very well for my man city side, playing MR. Remember that Ronaldos 42 goals probably wont repeat and are extremely rare.

[Mitja]

At ML/MR, however, I'm not sure how it would work.

That's just my take on it. Like I said, if you have more specific ideas about what turns them into wide playmakers rather than advanced playmakers or wingers/side midfielders, we can take a look at it and see whether it's worth putting them into the system.

as I said it's got to do more with their behaviour (movement) in ME than their tactical instructions. we were told that high creative freedom and free role makes them roam around but imo their movement is still too static and predictable. we both agree this needs to be improved, not just by making them cut in earlier/move centrally without ball, but also to improve their vertical movement - depending on forward runs instructions maybe?

for example a winger with rarely FR, free role and high creative freedom (Modric maybe), should tend to operate more in a linking-building the play role -> thus his movement would concentrate backwards and towards centre of the pitch but still providing width when needed.

a winger with often FR, free role and high creative freedom (CRonaldo maybe), should operate in more advanced positions, looking for and creating goal-scoring oprtunities. but still cutting in and moving centraly/into the box.

with mixed FR a player behaves in between and you're instructing him to decide on his own about vertical movement.

from here on you play to his strenghts. if he's very skillful then dribbling often, if he's good at passing then you'll instruct him to TTB etc.

maybe we're talking about more than just one role here, but to answer your question, high creative freedom and a free role (and crossing on rarely/mixed) is what differentes these players from traditional crossing wingers.

[Mitja]

Try setting his creative freedom to 20, crossing medium, give him a free role and set him to playmaker? Messi performing very well for my man city side, playing MR. Remember that Ronaldos 42 goals probably wont repeat and are extremely rare.

while their horizontal movement improves by doing that (I'd like to see it even more), verticaly they never come deep, which disables to reflect linking/build up play role many wingers have irl. they are positinonised to far up in the first place imo. these are the reasons why you need to have highish mentality and forward runs on full backs to make them overlap, compared to rl where it's much common to see it.

if wingers' movement improves, their whole play would benefit really a lot.

[heathxxx]

Can't wait until the weekend when I'll be setting up the FML client for the beta test client.

There's been some really good discussion here and I'm looking forward to examining the Tactical Wizard first-hand. Although I'm very comfortable with the sliders, I think it will be a big help to many FM'ers.

[TriAn]

DM C - Defensive Midfielder, Deep-Lying Playmaker

Defensive Midfielder (D, S)

Deep-Lying Playmaker (D, S)

Does it means dmc's forward runs can not be set to "often" via wizard?

AM/F L/R - Winger, Inside Forward, Advanced Playmaker

Winger (S, A)

Inside Forward (S, A)

Advanced Playmaker (S, A)

Does it means aml's (for example) forward runs can not be set to "rarely" via wizard?

[Millie]

I can't remember off the top of my head whether "rarely" is included in any of those options.

But, if you want to do that sort of stuff then that's what the 'classic' mode is for. This is why the wizard is an overlay to help you, but the original controls are still working in the background for you to change and modify as you see fit.

[Ov Collyer]

If means if you assign a your AM L position to have the Winger role (either via the wizard, or outside the wizard, both are possible) then his forward runs will indeed be Mixed/Often.

However, you can simply click on 'Advanced Instructions' for any player and override whatever you like - including setting your Winger's forward runs to 'rarely' if that is what you want to do.

The new system doesn't force you to stick to anything, it just sets things up using sensible football principles, which you can then tweak, if you want.

Or you can turn off the whole system and carry on as you do now (known as 'Classic' mode)

EDIT : I was too slow

[TriAn]

Ok. Thanks.

What about some options or possibilities (don't know which word is more suitable here) to customize wizard if I want to apply alternative to TT&F approach and still be able to use advantages of wizard itself?

[Ov Collyer]

That has been discussed and is a potential later phase development, depending on demand.

[shevelevee]

I think that it will be best if we can use wizard not only with some preset options. Look at this section, now there aren't single tactics, there are a lot of tactic' sets. People will be able to modify settings and upload their own preferences for this wizard.

Or the TTF is the one and only successful tactic ideology?)

[Ov Collyer]

That makes a lot of sense shevelevee - but we have to start somewhere.

If the concept works for TTF, and if there is enough demand for other 'sets' to do something similar then anything is possible in the future.

[shevelevee]

Can I take part in beta discussion of wizard? Unfortunately there aren't nothing about it in fm09 beta forums.

[Ov Collyer]

Yes of course, you're welcome. Expect an email from us within a few days (y)

[peter-evo]

Just wondering whether my mate can BETA test FML. He really wants to do it... he is here with me if you want him to write something up.

[peter-evo]

He has sent it

[Ov Collyer]

Cheers, received and he'll hear from us within a few days.

[peter-evo]

Cheers, received and he'll hear from us within a few days.

Thank you Ov.

[peter-evo]

Ov, my mate wants to set-up his account here. Just to let you know before I get done for being an alias, is that okay?

[Ov Collyer]

Yeah that's fine, go for it fellas.

[peter-evo]

Sent you, though it says he can not access the sign up page.

[AndioUK]

Would it be possible for me to sign up to Beta testing?

Cheers.