YAMS
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Posts posted by YAMS
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18 hours ago, vrig said:
This is why I asked what you mean by starting position. Had you read on, you may have noticed a question as to whether you want them to exclusively defend in the half space. That is the only way they would already be in the half space before the team has possession.
This isn't what Rangnick's interiors do, and it's not what I would want to do, as it would just be surrendering the flanks if the initial counterpress fails.
See @Rashidi's screenshot above, where Bruno and Sancho have moved into the half space in possession - they haven't stood there waiting for the team to win the ball and then vacated the half spaces; they've gone in and attacked them.
Rangnick's interiors are 10's when the team is in possession. They're then narrow for a counterpress, and if that fails they take up flank positions in a 442 shape. That's probably why he also said in his interview that Bruno and Sancho had the most physically demanding roles in the team - they have a lot to do.
If you don't want to replicate that particular aspect of the shape, I'd still say that off-centre AM with stay wider and a few other PI's would do the strictly attacking part of the tactic well enough. Plenty of roles to play with
I did read on.... Anyway, enough of that.
I'd like their starting default positions when we have the ball to be the half spaces. From there they could roam inside or hold the half position depending on the phase/development of play. I don't like them starting the attacking transition narrow by default. Defensively isn't an issue, that's pretty simple to set up.
The AMS set up provided might do the trick though, will give it a go tonight.
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18 hours ago, (sic) said:
This is all I have, to really customize the role, you can use players with different traits as well as using extra PIs if you want to.
Many thanks again. I'll try this base set up & see how it goes. Appreciated.
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29 minutes ago, (sic) said:
You can't select both Stay Wider and Move into channels. But yes, I use Roam from Position on both players.
No.8 and No.11 are my AMs, 9 and 10 strikers, 2 and 3 Wingbacks, 6 and 7 DMs. Strikers are wider in the first screenshot for some reason even though I'm playing narrower, but the AMs are wider than them as you can see and they occupy the space between the strikers and WBs when they push high.
Ok, that looks pretty much perfect. Thank you for this. So you use roam from position and either stays wider or moves in to channels, do you use gets forward & runs wide with ball as well? I'd like to try to perfectly replicate this.
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1 hour ago, (sic) said:
AM-S with Play Wider actually does that for me.
Presume you play two AM-S with Stay Wider & Moves Into Channel instruction? Do you use Roam From Position & Runs Wide With Ball as well?
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1 hour ago, vrig said:
Can you clarify what you mean by "starts in the actual channel"? My wide playmakers always get there when we have the ball, and they're there to counterpress on transition.
Are you specifically saying that you want a role that defends exclusively in the half space? Personally, I wouldn't really want them doing that, nor do I think that's what Rangnick's interiors do.
You've answered your question with your first sentence. 'My wide playmakers always GET there where we have the ball'. Wide 10's actually START in that position as a base shape & then move around from there if needed. So they start in the half space/channel, this would be their 'base' position. FM cannot do this.
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11 minutes ago, vrig said:
But there are currently 3 different roles that are effectively named as "wide 10s" - the wide playmaker in the MF strata, and the advanced playmaker or trequartista in the AM strata, played wide. Modified wide midfielders or inverted wingers can also be wide 10s, with the right setup and personnel.
You can also add stay wider to any AM that's off-centre, as @(sic) has done above, if you're wanting them to move the other way. Or you've got mezzalas in the MF strata.
So that's 9 different options for a "wide 10" role already. And that's not accounting for variation in duties either.
None of what you've described do the role properly. The closest is the AMS in the AM position but they don't start wide enough. Basically you need a role that sits or starts in the actual channel on the AM strata. This is what a 'wide 10' truly is. It's a role FM cannot do at the moment, it needs adding to the game.
As a further example the Carrielo should also be used in this starting channel position but obviously on the CM strata. Carrielo's actually sit too narrow in the CM strata, even with 3 CM's.
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Basically FM needs a 'wide 10' role, many teams now play dual wide 10's, Chelsea under Tuchel have been doing it since he joined. It's a role the game currently doesn't cater for.
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1 hour ago, zabyl said:
I think this is a prejudice my friend
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Potentially so, yes. I'll refrain from posting I think from now on.
Cheers.
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4 hours ago, Jack722 said:
Disagree, if you're looking to sit back, concede possession and hit on the break, counters get triggered based on how much the opposition over commit. As long as you're not on a defensive mentality or lower, you should get plenty of counter attacks if you set up right defensively.
Setting up to hit on the break is very different to fast, direct, attacking fotball.
With only one support role on balanced mentality playing counter attack will be an interesting venture. I would want 3 attacking roles in there at least.
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5 hours ago, Morgan Kane said:
It varies, mostly balanced, sometimes positive/defensive depending on opposition and home/away game. Reason I'm asking is I've just changed formation to a 532 and/or 442 narrow diamond, and I am wondering what width is recommended in general for those types of formation
If you are changing mentality per opponent/fixture then leave width on standard & tweak during the game if you see the need. Narrower width will lead to shorter passing & possibly more possession/control where as going wider will stretch the play a little, obviously.
4-4-2 narrow diamond your players are naturally positioned closer together so I would venture away from narrower width in general, this formation could actually benefit from being played one notch wider. 5-3-2 is fine on standard width with adjustments during game if needed.
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1 hour ago, Morgan Kane said:
Which attacking width would you use in general, both for wide and narrow formations? For instance; in a 532 or a 41212 narrow formation, do you advice going wide or narrow?
What mentality are you playing for these formations?
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1 hour ago, Ahewrestlingfan said:
It's meant to be more of a mid block tactic so I would say more counter attacking as I am usually the weaker team in most games played.
You'll never have a consistent counter attack with Balanced mentality & only one attack role in your line up. Never going to work.
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9 hours ago, Andrew Marines said:
Still testing it out but i don't have the same pressure that inverted on support could do.
Correct, you won't do.... The players want to occupy the same spaces so either an IWBD or a MEZA is needed with a support duty for the opposite. Both will give you other issues though.
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1 hour ago, Andrew Marines said:
I've found a solution but i'm gonna test it out.
Inverted wingbacks on defense but mentality balanced-->offensive and focus down left/right so individual mentality is still positive
Nice solution. You'll find IWBD's are far more reserved in their positioning & aggressiveness than IWBS's.
IWBD's are a very underused role that actually are pretty fantastic, a bit like WPA's & the ever brilliant Carrilero.
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35 minutes ago, WhyMe said:
Actually I was speculating about trying something with a playmaker in 3 different tiers, something like:
TQ
AP-s AM-A ??
CM-d DLP-s
WB-a CD-d CD-d WB-s
Not sure what I would play on the right side, torn between IF-s and W-a
Could also swap out the WB-s for something a bit more conservative/an IWB-s/d and make the DLP-s an RPM for giggles. Similarly AM-a could be an SS.
The idea being the TQ works as a hybrid scorer/creator which moves around a lot to create space for the AM who is the primary goal scorer, with whatever I pick at RW another goal scorer.
I almost never play 4-2-3-1 but I figure this could be fun, probably wouldn't work mind.
Go with a Raumdeuter or IWA on the right flank, you need a goal scoring threat from that position with a APS on the opposite flank. I'd probably change that AMA to a SS as well with a TQ up top. Right back a simple FBS for balance against the WBA & if you are set on the CMD then maybe change the DLPS to RPM or APS.
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7 hours ago, Oli99 said:
Great advice, in this scenario, a carrilero helped considerably, thank you
You're very welcome.
In certain situations you have to stop trying to be a hero so to speak & plug gaps to stop opposition threats. There's nothing wrong with a few defensive minded roles to deal with threats at all. When you stop the oppo threat you will often attain more possession for your supporting/attacking players to take effect.
If you look at the 4-1-2-2-1 basic shape you see where the gaps in your defensive shape are, down the wings & in the channels. Get a supporting role or two in there if needed. Not every player can attack, you need a balance & if you are to be successful you need to earn the right to be successful by winning certain battles on the pitch.
You need to think of a real football game where you see players dominating and then what managers/coaches try to do to stop them.
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15 hours ago, guttea said:
yes, that's my idea. one problem I'm facing is that usually 3atb is played with wingbacks while I'm trying to do it with wingers. I put them into a defensive winger role so they should help out on defence but the players complain that the formation may "expose them at the back". So far I played a bunch of friendlies but I can't say it works great: I'm mostly disappointed in the AMC role, he's completely useless, all the danger comes from the wings.
Yep, you've found two of the problems you're going to face here.
The only way you will make defensive wingers work is to play with a double pivot centre mid pair from the DM strata. If you don't do this then you will let in goal after goal from far post runs. You can defend wider (Force oppo inside) & make your two outside centre halves stay wider in possession, this helps with their lost the ball transition a little to prevent wide counters, but they still won't mark the far post very well. If you play the DM double pivot then you can get a regista/DLPS in there with a BWMS/SVS perhaps. This does work to an extent & If you are under the cosh then making these DM roles defend responsibility helps to cover the channels/wings a little, especially on counter attacks.... However this leaves five players at the back which seems too many.
As for the number 10... Well they are a hard role to get right. You need movement from them so I would advise an attacking/roaming role. A Treq or AMC with roam from position highlighted perhaps, you could also APA them as well but I prefer the playmaker from deeper personally.
The other way to play as you have mentioned is with wingbacks. You can get away with WBA's here & play a two or three man centre mid. If you go the former with a number 10 then you only want one runner from the two centre mids, ideally one player would sit a little. If you play 3 centre mids you can get creative in the channels with Mezzala's & Carrilero's.
The problem with the 3-5-2 is that the wide men become too focal a point and your AMC can be pointless, you've seen this already. I found the 3-5-2 wingbacks almost OP if you have quality & depth at the wingback position. For some reason WBA's were hardly marked on the back post as normal wingers were & they provided far more natural width than any wide mid or att mid winger who constantly played more narrow in the final third under any width. The number of possible goals from the wing back position if on attack duty was far too high.
The problem with playing wing backs is that in defence there's a line where they would retreat to a back five which left opposition full backs with far too much room to play in. This was why I eventually switched to carrilero's/CMS's playing wider in the midfield three to deal with marauding opposition full backs.
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Just looking at your tactic you've got a lot of roles there who run with the ball & thus possibly not enough simple continuity/possession roles. Your in possession TI's are indicating a short based passing style & all your wide players are making inverted runs or running inverted with the ball. Your only natural width is from your full backs who are also running with the ball. As a result I suspect your RPM isn't being used to their full capacity.
I would possibly change your RHS to RB - FBS & RW - WS. Also maybe that LW could be a IWA rather than IFA. I'd like that DM pushing up more when in possession to fill the running CMA gap so a DMS perhaps.
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1 hour ago, Oli99 said:
OK thank you. The goals have generally started down our left side, which is understandable, that's where I've concentrated on improving
Ok, so maybe you have a weakness down the lhs or perhaps you played an opposition with a particularly strong or targeted right flank game. Ideally, if you had the opportunity to see it happening, you would have made positional or role adjustments to try to stop it occurring.
It's a learning game, perhaps you lost this match but can fix it or see it for next time. As someone mentioned earlier on, don't go changing too much at once. Often a subtle change is enough to effect an outcome.
Personally if I was playing a 4-1-2-2-1 shape & I saw the oppo right back or RHS in general was very aggressive I would pull back my left winger to a left mid starting position & possible either slide my def mid to the LHS a touch or make the left mid a Carrilero or CMD/S with a stay wide instruction. This would overload the LHS in defence more. You could then also attack down you RHS to give the oppo more of a problem.... Just examples here of how I might approach this.
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9 minutes ago, Oli99 said:
OK, so is the DM going to need to be a regista for example, in which case who, if any do I give a defend duty to. I've switched the BWM to a car s. I'm playing the right central midfielder as a CM a, does this need to be the playmaker instead with a defensive mid behind him ?
I have been playing 4141 with little success but, I haven't played attacking wingers so, I'll switch to that and raise the LOE. Do I use this against the very best teams though ?
Try it, see what happens. There's no magic formula to win every game. All you ideally do is put your players in the best possible circumstances. You can make every correct tactical decision & still lose. That's football.
Just taking the where are you conceding goals question from. Look at the goals you've conceded, where did the play/pass originate from? What could you have done differently to stop it happening? To prevent in the future you have to look at the past. If you keep sending your team out making the same mistakes you will possibly get the same outcomes.
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On 05/09/2021 at 17:06, guttea said:
One problem I see with this is there's not enough people in the box. The wingers stay wide, the AMC arrives late, DLF comes deep for the ball so you just have the TM in the box which is probably not enough penetration. Not sure how to fix it: get one of the holding CMs to join the attack or tell one of the wingers to cut inside? could be a problem with creating space. Any other ideas? I'm not wedded to the formation, the requirements are 1) two strikers 2) active AMC 3) wingers. Maybe 4132? But I'm scared for the lonely guy in the middle.
I've played a lot of 3 at the back. It's actually really good fun but you have to get the wing backs/centre mids balance correct.
Just to check your idea is a MM in attack & a 3-4-1-2 in defence/base structure?
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Changing to a lower mentality is not the way to go. If you do this you are telling your team to surrender all they have attained so far. There are options in the team TI's that are there for you to use rather than changing the entire team mentality. I listed these earlier in the thread.
Alternatively you can change you base shape to a more solid structure (two banks or four, as an example) or you can change a few roles in your system to slightly more reserved. This way you would be changing one or two players mentality potentially rather then the whole team.
In real life football matches that are are a level or similar skill field aren't played at the same 'pace' all the time. Games have ebbs, flows, lulls & swings in them where tempo drops/raises & you are/aren't on top. To send your team out on the pitch in FM and not make small adjustments to select TI's, roles & shape isn't going to be maximising your chances.
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6 hours ago, Oli99 said:
Generally the channels as you say but, some through the middle as well
A 4-3-3 base shape is naturally weak defensively in the wings/channels. You can get doubled up on very easily & if the oppo has good channel play through a MEZ or inverting wide man your DM can be overwhelmed. Like others have said I would get your playmaker further up the pitch maybe & your DM a more aggressive transition role.
I would also be tempted to play a 4-1-4-1 away from home as a base shape rather than 4-1-2-2-1. Get your wingers back to the the midfield strata. This would help with a counter attack base set up. Make those wingers an attacking mentality for the counter though.
I still think your giving up too much space as well. If you do go to a 4-1-4-1 raise your line of engagement to high.
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4 hours ago, Oli99 said:
OK, I'll change DLF s to DLF attack. The system is still quite porous defensively, is there anything I can do about this or is it always going to be with three up front ?
Where are you letting in your goals? Is it from wing play/channels primarily as I suspect?
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Ralf Rangnick Interiors
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Update, I've reverted to wing position APS's playing narrow & roaming from the AM Stata. These seem to do the job quite well.